"Naval Service" vs "Navy"

Vorsprung

Hi all,

A question for those in the know. Why has the Naval Service got that name, as opposed to "Irish Navy". Can't find anything about it on the DF website.

Thanks in advance!

BoJack Horseman

'navy' sounds more aggressive.
It also implies the ability to execute Naval combat, which our NS isn't really built for.


(Apropo of naming convention...hilariously, Germany is building a class of warship... The F125. It is big enough to be classed as a destroyer, but the Germans didn't like the idea of having something that sounded aggressive, so it's the largest frigate in the world instead)

Negative_G

Vorsprung wrote: »

Hi all,

A question for those in the know. Why has the Naval Service got that name, as opposed to "Irish Navy". Can't find anything about it on the DF website.

Thanks in advance!

Very simply the Navy is seen as a 'service' under the umbrella of the Defence Forces. Similarly the Air Corps is the aerial 'corps' of the army.

That's my understanding at least.

discus

It's my understanding that our Naval Service does not have a high enough rank within its structure to allow it to be called a Navy. I think our highest is rear admiral. This premise is similar to that of national armies. Under 100,000 isn't an army, it's a self defence force.


This is all bollox knowledge, though. Wait for someone with actual facts to come through :P

Alkers

discus wrote: »

It's my understanding that our Naval Service does not have a high enough rank within its structure to allow it to be called a Navy. I think our highest is rear admiral. This premise is similar to that of national armies. Under 100,000 isn't an army, it's a self defence force.


This is all bollox knowledge, though. Wait for someone with actual facts to come through :P

They have a vice admiral now that Mark Mellet is the Chief of Staff.

IIRC the UK has a Naval Service which includes the Navy and the Royal Marines.

I've known a lot of Navy people to refer to themselves as Navy rather than Naval service so I wouldn't worry about it.

Morpheus

Ive seen Irish Naval Service personnel wearing work related clothing with the word Navy embroidered or embossed on it.

Ren2k7

There's no real distinction. It's just a name and they could easily be just called the Irish Navy if the govt wished it. Not so with the Air Corps though, they are actually closer to an army air corps than a air force in their own rights. They'd need a few fighter aircraft before they could be renamed.

Manic Moran

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

(Apropo of naming convention...hilariously, Germany is building a class of warship... The F125. It is big enough to be classed as a destroyer, but the Germans didn't like the idea of having something that sounded aggressive, so it's the largest frigate in the world instead)

You are assuming that the Germans classify by size and not role. There have been bigger frigates in the past, such as this one. (7,000 tons for F125, over 10,000 for California)




The California and Virgnia classes (in excess of 10,000 tons light), plus Bainbridge and Truxtun were originally commissioned as nuclear powered frigates under the US Navy's classification system of the time (which was based off the older concepts of size). The US changed its definitions in 1975, they were re-classified as cruisers.

A quick scan of the specs for F125 indicates that 'Frigate' under the common usage of a single primary role is actually correct. She's a surface warfare combatant, with very limited capabilities at ASW and AAW.

4ensic15

discus wrote: »

I think our highest is rear admiral. This premise is similar to that of national armies. Under 100,000 isn't an army, it's a self defence force.


This is all bollox knowledge, though. Wait for someone with actual facts to come through :P

The highest operational rank in the naval service is commodore. that is the rank held by the flag officer commanding. The holders of any higher ranks naval have appointments at army headquarters which are general staff appointments and are not linked specifically to the naval service.

discus

Fairsies. I won't argue with ya!

a/tel

4ensic15 wrote: »

The highest operational rank in the naval service is commodore. that is the rank held by the flag officer commanding. The holders of any higher ranks naval have appointments at army headquarters which are general staff appointments and are not linked specifically to the naval service.

I think you mean Defence Forces Headquarters.......:cool::)

4ensic15

a/tel wrote: »

I think you mean Defence Forces Headquarters.......:cool::)

Always referred to as AHQ in my day.

Kat1170

4ensic15 wrote: »

Always referred to as AHQ in my day.

Yup, still is.

ZeroThreat

discus wrote: »

It's my understanding that our Naval Service does not have a high enough rank within its structure to allow it to be called a Navy. I think our highest is rear admiral. This premise is similar to that of national armies. Under 100,000 isn't an army, it's a self defence force.


This is all bollox knowledge, though. Wait for someone with actual facts to come through :P

The Japanese army is known as the ground self-defence force yet it numbers 150,000.

Manic Moran

Kat1170 wrote: »

Yup, still is.

I have to say, I always figured that was why it was Naval Service and Air Corps. I always considered them as subsets of the Army structure. Much like the US Army Air Force of late WW2 (US Army Air Corps prior at the beginning of WW2. The US Air Force was only created in 1948.

a/tel

Kat1170 wrote: »

Yup, still is.

Military.ie state it is DFHQ

Seeing as there is a Vice Admiral as COS i reckon he would think the same!

roundymac

It's an Irish thing :ie; to be different. For years we had a minister for external affairs, everyone else had a minister for foreign affairs.

Yawlboy

When I served we were told it was The Naval Service because our Flag officer was only a Commodore and that in order to be a Navy you had to have at least 12 ships and an Admiral

a/tel

Yawlboy wrote: »

When I served we were told it was The Naval Service because our Flag officer was only a Commodore and that in order to be a Navy you had to have at least 12 ships and an Admiral

New Zealand have 11 ships and a Rear Admiral as Chief Of Navy.

Pity the white paper didnt sort out the naming issue.

Have a feeling that the government dont want a change as it prob sounds too warry.......

Heraldoffreeent

a/tel wrote: »

New Zealand have 11 ships and a Rear Admiral as Chief Of Navy.

Pity the white paper didnt sort out the naming issue.

Have a feeling that the government dont want a change as it prob sounds too warry.......

Yeah, also the Commodore rank is somewhat ethereal.

In many European navies the equivalent is Konteradmiral/Flottillenadmiral, and in the early 80's the USN replaced Commodore with Rear Admiral (lower half) as a one star naval rank.

Victor

roundymac wrote: »

It's an Irish thing :ie; to be different. For years we had a minister for external affairs, everyone else had a minister for foreign affairs.

Australia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Department_of_External_Affairs_(1901%E2%80%9316)

Canada: http://www.canadahistory.com/sections/war/Peace%20Keepers/peacekeeping.html

Cameroon (External Relations): https://www.flickr.com/photos/cscuk/sets/72157635372045735/

India: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minister_of_External_Affairs_(India)

New Zealand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minister_of_Foreign_Affairs_(New_Zealand)

Nigeria: https://books.google.ie/books?id=XDoHiB-I70kC&pg=PA5&lpg=PA5&dq=%22minister+for+external+affairs%22+-canada+-ireland+-australia+-scotland+-india+-lucia+-%22the+gambia%22&source=bl&ots=kOoL87kiz7&sig=N1-GofdJsR0kEmuVRhgdwX-QWOc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiCsZbV3JrLAhXC_g4KHe8FChQQ6AEIOTAE#v=onepage&q=%22minister%20for%20external%20affairs%22%20-canada%20-ireland%20-australia%20-scotland%20-india%20-lucia%20-%22the%20gambia%22&f=false

St. Lucia: http://externalaffairs.govt.lc/

Scotland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minister_for_Europe_and_International_Development#Minister_for_External_Affairs_and_International_Development

The Gambia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhajie_Alieu_Badara_Njie