PRTB waiting times...

percy212

I filed a case for a rent raise being over market just 3 weeks ago and already got a date for an adjudication at the end of this month. Is this a good sign or a bad sign (for me)...

Cuddlesworth

percy212 wrote: »

I filed a case for a rent raise being over market just 3 weeks ago and already got a date for an adjudication at the end of this month. Is this a good sign or a bad sign (for me)...

Is it in line with market rates.

4ensic15

percy212 wrote: »

I filed a case for a rent raise being over market just 3 weeks ago and already got a date for an adjudication at the end of this month. Is this a good sign or a bad sign (for me)...

It is good for you in that you will have a quick decision. The chances are that you will lose so the sooner you find out the better.

percy212

No its not in line with the market which is why I filed the dispute in the first place. <MOD SNIP >

percy212

percy212 wrote: »

No its not in line with the market which is why I filed the dispute in the first place.

Post back when you get the result so we know how the PRTB judged it.

4ensic15

percy212 wrote: »

No its not in line with the market which is why I filed the dispute in the first place. <MOD SNIP >

That doesn't mean you will win. How are you going to prove what the market rent is?

Agent J

4ensic15 wrote: »

That doesn't mean you will win. How are you going to prove what the market rent is?

That's easy.

http://www.prtb.ie/landlords/rent-index-dec-2014

PRTB Rent index. If it's higher than what the PRTB have for rents in that area then it's pretty much a slam dunk.

Agent J

Agent J wrote: »

That's easy.

http://www.prtb.ie/landlords/rent-index-dec-2014

PRTB Rent index. If it's higher than what the PRTB have for rents in that area then it's pretty much a slam dunk.

That index isn't realiable according to what I've read about it.

c montgomery

Agent J wrote: »

That's easy.

http://www.prtb.ie/landlords/rent-index-dec-2014

PRTB Rent index. If it's higher than what the PRTB have for rents in that area then it's pretty much a slam dunk.

That index is BS.
There can be massive differences in the quality and facilities that one property can have over another in the same area causing the rent to be higher or lower than the area average.

If I were you I would bring pics of your house with you and pics of similar houses for rent in the area from daft to show comparability.

Agent J

The PRTB index is made up of the data they collect from every single registered tenancy. There isn't a better primary source of actual prices for the rental market that I am aware (Open to correction).

If a rent is being put up above what they have for an area given a particular bedroom size then it is a slam dunk. You just point to their own data. Doesn't matter if there are arguments about it's reliability or not. They are going to look at their own data on rent prices for an area.

If there is some variance based on facilities then sure use daft to try and back up your point but that's asking prices from a single site (albiet the biggest) which will be selectively picked.. It's a harder argument.

April 73

It would be an interesting argument. That PRTB report references q3 2015. Figures from 5 months ago in a rising market.
It captures registered tenancies & I very much doubt after the initial registration whether anyone ever updates their info with increased rents charged over the years of an ongoing tenancy.
If the landlord can reference very similar properties on daft for higher rents it would be a very interesting case to see who wins.

newacc2015

Agent J wrote: »

The PRTB index is made up of the data they collect from every single registered tenancy. There isn't a better primary source of actual prices for the rental market that I am aware (Open to correction).

I think you seem to understand what market rate actually is. The definition of market rent is "Amount of money a property would rent or lease for if it was available at this time." Not what PRTB data was several months ago, which is what you are saying is market rate. Daft.ie is far more accurate than the PRTB. I imagine 95% of properties would be advertised on it. I seriously doubt anywhere close to 95% of Landlords have their tenancies advertised with the PRTB. Landlords understate how much they are receiving in rent with the PRTB due to the caps on the likes of rent allowance.

The PRTB site doesnt even take into account the size or quality of the apartment. Under your logic using PRTB data. I could charge only charge say €1400 for a 2 bed in Grand Canal Dock, as the PRTB data says a 2 bed is €1400 on their data base. It is ignoring that it is a Penthouse, that has 2 ensuite rooms and another bathroom. There maybe another apartment in the block next store for €3000 with the exact same spec.

OP has just said they are objecting to what the landlord believes is the market rent without saying why. Ie another apartment in the same complex with the same spec is €200 cheaper per month

Agent J

newacc2015 wrote: »

I think you seem to understand what market rate actually is. The definition of market rent is "Amount of money a property would rent or lease for if it was available at this time."

I do understand what a market price. I worked long enough as a pricing analyst to know the difference between bid/mid/ask pricing.

The prices on daft are asking prices. They are what the landlord thinks the current market can bear. Are they right? How do we know if the landlord got that price? For all we know someone could've offered more or less. That happens. Given it's a rising market probably more likely to get offered more than less.

Whatever price the landlord GETS for the property is the market price. This is distinct from the price they ASKED for. You might think that is splitting hairs but it is very important distinction. This was a massive problem during the early stages of the property crash. Estate agents could BS like hell saying they got X price when they actually got Y. Price X would've been all over DAFT and anything else (Hello Sindo property supplement) but no one would've known what price Y was.

This is one of the major problems with property prices is the opaqueness of the data sources. An open market only works when there is transparent pricing.

Daft is an excellent source for asking prices but the only actual source of market prices (ie what was actually paid) is the the PRTB dataset. Now we can go back and forth about it's accuracy but it is the only dataset which captures the price actually paid.

However aside from all of that.. if the PRTB is the body you appeal to about an "unfair" price and the PRTB has a dataset of prices. What do you think they are going to do?

athtrasna

And the OP asked about waiting times...

Agent J

April 73 wrote: »

It would be an interesting argument. That PRTB report references q3 2015. Figures from 5 months ago in a rising market.
It captures registered tenancies & I very much doubt after the initial registration whether anyone ever updates their info with increased rents charged over the years of an ongoing tenancy.

Yeah there is a reasonable argument to be made that the PRTB dataset is a bunch of stale prices however

It captures new registered tenancies in each quarter which is going to reflect the market price at the time. I would wager that any increased rents from existing tenancies would either be market price or just under. That is assuming everyone acting rationally.

If the landlord can reference very similar properties on daft for higher rents it would be a very interesting case to see who wins.

Ah this is the nub of the issue. A bureaucracy is always going to put higher value on it's own data rather than outside data. A very compelling case would have to be made to over turn this.

Agent J

Sorry, did kinda take it off the OP initial question. *puts hands up*

It's a little surprising the PRTB moving this fast. I've had some dealings with them and they normally make an ice age look fast.

newacc2015

Agent J wrote: »

I do understand what a market price. I worked long enough as a pricing analyst to know the difference between bid/mid/ask pricing.

If you are a pricing analyst. Would you base todays price of shares on the figure 6 months ago and call that the market rate?

The prices on daft are asking prices. They are what the landlord thinks the current market can bear. Are they right? How do we know if the landlord got that price? For all we know someone could've offered more or less. That happens. Given it's a rising market probably more likely to get offered more than less.

Whatever price the landlord GETS for the property is the market price. This is distinct from the price they ASKED for. You might think that is splitting hairs but it is very important distinction. This was a massive problem during the early stages of the property crash. Estate agents could BS like hell saying they got X price when they actually got Y. Price X would've been all over DAFT and anything else (Hello Sindo property supplement) but no one would've known what price Y was.

This is one of the major problems with property prices is the opaqueness of the data sources. An open market only works when there is transparent pricing.

Daft is an excellent source for asking prices but the only actual source of market prices (ie what was actually paid) is the the PRTB dataset. Now we can go back and forth about it's accuracy but it is the only dataset which captures the price actually paid.

However aside from all of that.. if the PRTB is the body you appeal to about an "unfair" price and the PRTB has a dataset of prices. What do you think they are going to do?

This isnt 2008. Landlords are getting the listed prices in 2016. Rents listed on daft are rarely negotiable. In fact far more Landlords are often upping prices at viewing as there is more interest than they expected. Potential tenants are often offering €100/200 more to get the apartment on the spot.

The PRTB data set isnt the accurate. You are not acknowledge that Landlords are often understating to the PRTB they rent they are receiving. Or a lot of Landlords arent registering with the PRTB in the first place. That isnt an issue with the daft.

You are ignoring the variation in property with PRTB database. Eg Dublin 4 has Ballsbridge which is very different to Ringsend. Where are the PRTB making allowances on their data base for a former council house and a trophy home? Where as on daft you could easily see the rents going for the variation in properties

4ensic15

Much as I thought. The o/p is not going to produce evidence. The burden of proving what the market rent is, is on the complainant. The index is not a satisfactory guide. The key date is the date of notification of the rent increase. What rent would a willing tenant not in occupation have paid and what rent would a willing landlord have accepted? A lot depends on how the landlord plays it. If he produces some hard evidence he will win.

Agent J

newacc2015 wrote: »

You are ignoring the variation in property with PRTB database. Eg Dublin 4 has Ballsbridge which is very different to Ringsend.

You have actually looked at the PRTB dataset right? I accept there are some limitations but it's not as simple as an old postcode look up. Ringsend and Ballsbridge are 2 different areas in it's dataset.

In answer to your question which got buried in the quote. A 6 month old share price is a stale price however if you have nothing else in the database you end up using it as a guide. It is apples and oranges though because housing is a very different commodity. Which is why the property price register exists for Sales.

When you go to the "Sales" section you have have the property price register prices for the area nearby. ie What the houses actually sold for(Market price) vs Daft asking prices. Yes those prices can be months old as well but they are your guideline price. There are also issues with the property price register as well but it is something which has been needed in this country for decades. The closest we have to the same for rental prices is the PRTB index.

Anyway this is largely academic. The crux is the PRTB are going to decide what is valid data and I think there are going to use their own information first before anything else.I would be curious to know more from the OP about how much vs what is on the PRTB dataset. If the proposed price is in line with PRTB dataset then the tenant is boned otherwise it should be pretty easy as the PRTB make the decision.

percy212

Wrong. I already sent lthe prtb listings which show the property as overpriced as well as copies of emails showing how I offered a compromise which was refused. In addition the review letter breached the new 90 day notice requirement. So slam dunk for me I think.

4ensic15 wrote: »

Much as I thought. The o/p is not going to produce evidence. The burden of proving what the market rent is, is on the complainant. The index is not a satisfactory guide. The key date is the date of notification of the rent increase. What rent would a willing tenant not in occupation have paid and what rent would a willing landlord have accepted? A lot depends on how the landlord plays it. If he produces some hard evidence he will win.

percy212

The amount the landlord wants is 20% more than the recorded market rate provided by the ptrb. In addition the requested amount is more than the asking rent for similar properties advertised in the locale.

If I don't win, I will genuinely be surprised.

Agent J wrote: »

You have actually looked at the PRTB dataset right? I accept there are some limitations but it's not as simple as an old postcode look up. Ringsend and Ballsbridge are 2 different areas in it's dataset.

In answer to your question which got buried in the quote. A 6 month old share price is a stale price however if you have nothing else in the database you end up using it as a guide. It is apples and oranges though because housing is a very different commodity. Which is why the property price register exists for Sales.

When you go to the "Sales" section you have have the property price register prices for the area nearby. ie What the houses actually sold for(Market price) vs Daft asking prices. Yes those prices can be months old as well but they are your guideline price. There are also issues with the property price register as well but it is something which has been needed in this country for decades. The closest we have to the same for rental prices is the PRTB index.

Anyway this is largely academic. The crux is the PRTB are going to decide what is valid data and I think there are going to use their own information first before anything else.I would be curious to know more from the OP about how much vs what is on the PRTB dataset. If the proposed price is in line with PRTB dataset then the tenant is boned otherwise it should be pretty easy as the PRTB make the decision.

The_Conductor

Agent J wrote: »

The prices on daft are asking prices. They are what the landlord thinks the current market can bear. Are they right? How do we know if the landlord got that price? For all we know someone could've offered more or less. That happens. Given it's a rising market probably more likely to get offered more than less.

The DAFT prices- which are, as a composite- at very least 15% higher than the PRTB prices (just listen to any of Ronan Lyon's recent interviews)- are headline asking prices from Landlords. Having been directly involved in 2 recent lettings (since the start of January)- it appears to be common practice for prospective tenants to offer significantly above the asking price- and in one case (a residential letting by a company on behalf of multinational staff)- the first year's rent in advance and in 4 month blocks in advance thereafter.........

Its a sellers market- driven by scarcity- there hasn't been as few properties available to let nationally at any stage since 1994.

Its an interesting contention- to try to assert that the PRTB rental index has any bearing on market rates- and its a contention that may shed some light into their practices.

Aligned with all of this- many landlords are accepting lower rents from people who are willing to give several months deposit- as it makes them feel more secure as landlords- though obviously they are not maximising their rental potential. The PRTB does not enumerate how much deposits tenants are paying- and this is at least as important as headline rates- for growing numbers of landlords.

borderlinemeath

^^^

Our last letting was under market rate, but left unfurnished. With 3 months deposit.
And if the letting market is still in the same state when the next rental comes up, it'll be treated the same. Far less hassle for landlords when there's no furniture to replace or maintain and just appliances to be dealt with.

Lux23

I just look at it for my area and my rent is €130 higher, that's interesting! (The PRTB prices)

percy212

The_Conductor wrote: »

The DAFT prices- which are, as a composite- at very least 15% higher than the PRTB prices (just listen to any of Ronan Lyon's recent interviews)- are headline asking prices from Landlords. Having been directly involved in 2 recent lettings (since the start of January)- it appears to be common practice for prospective tenants to offer significantly above the asking price- and in one case (a residential letting by a company on behalf of multinational staff)- the first year's rent in advance and in 4 month blocks in advance thereafter.........

Multinationals will tire of our Irish property nonsense in time. I look forward to their building their own accommodation. In my case, I am NOT in Dublin.

Its an interesting contention- to try to assert that the PRTB rental index has any bearing on market rates- and its a contention that may shed some light into their practices.

I look forward to documenting the experience!

Aligned with all of this- many landlords are accepting lower rents from people who are willing to give several months deposit- as it makes them feel more secure as landlords- though obviously they are not maximising their rental potential. The PRTB does not enumerate how much deposits tenants are paying- and this is at least as important as headline rates- for growing numbers of landlords.

If a five year tenant who is very low maintenance carries no weight with a landlord, then I am happy to ride this case as far as I can take it! Greed sickens me.

Rodgeb

My own recent experience may help the OP regarding PRTB timing.

• I lodged a dispute with the PRTB late September last year.
• The adjudication date was set for the first week in November.
• I got the adjudication report 2 weeks later in mid Nov.
• I appealed during the first week in December.
• The tribunal was held 3 weeks ago during the last week in January.
• I am still awaiting the judgement from the tribunal, have no idea how long this will take

.

4ensic15

percy212 wrote: »

Wrong. I already sent lthe prtb listings which show the property as overpriced as well as copies of emails showing how I offered a compromise which was refused. In addition the review letter breached the new 90 day notice requirement. So slam dunk for me I think.

You may well win on the 90 day requirement but that may be a Pyrrhic victory. The Landlord will demand an even higher rent with 90 days notice.
You have to produce evidence and showing a variation from the average in the area is not evidence that will carry any weight. Some areas such as Rathmines for example have a large variety of accommodation types. there are plush purpose built units and old decrepit converted units and all manner of units in between. On your logic all of the plush apartments would automatically be entitled to pay the average for the area!

newacc2015

Agent J wrote: »

You have actually looked at the PRTB dataset right? I accept there are some limitations but it's not as simple as an old postcode look up. Ringsend and Ballsbridge are 2 different areas in it's dataset.

In answer to your question which got buried in the quote. A 6 month old share price is a stale price however if you have nothing else in the database you end up using it as a guide. It is apples and oranges though because housing is a very different commodity. Which is why the property price register exists for Sales.

When you go to the "Sales" section you have have the property price register prices for the area nearby. ie What the houses actually sold for(Market price) vs Daft asking prices. Yes those prices can be months old as well but they are your guideline price. There are also issues with the property price register as well but it is something which has been needed in this country for decades. The closest we have to the same for rental prices is the PRTB index.

Anyway this is largely academic. The crux is the PRTB are going to decide what is valid data and I think there are going to use their own information first before anything else.I would be curious to know more from the OP about how much vs what is on the PRTB dataset. If the proposed price is in line with PRTB dataset then the tenant is boned otherwise it should be pretty easy as the PRTB make the decision.

Have you used the database? There is so little data on it. That you actually cant search for a 3 bed semi-d by area in Dublin 4. This isnt an issue with daft.ie

The closest thing we have to market rents is daft.ie. Not the PRTB. You are ignoring that landlords understate on the PRTB data base and that not all landlords register with the PRTB. What good is a data base if it is missing data or a fair amount of it is incorrect? You dont need an academic view, to see that the data set isnt that reliable.

If you go onto the PRTB database for Dublin 1 and look at 2 bed apartments in the IFSC or Spencer dock. They are listed as €1550-1650 on the PRTB website. I would love to know where I can rent those apartments, because those apartments havent been at those rents for years. If you look up daft.ie for 2 bed apartments in Spencer Dock and IFSC, they are closer to €2300 a month.

Lets say the estate agent is bad at their job and only gets €2000 a month. How is that price so far off the PRTB data? Taken into account your non-existent situation where landlords are dropping rent prices at viewing. Has rent risen by a nearly a third in a quarter? No the PRTB database is not a reflection of market rents. I dont think you find an estate agent or Landlord in Dublin who thinks it is a better indicator of rents than daft.ie

athtrasna

Rodgeb wrote: »

My own recent experience may help the OP regarding PRTB timing.

• I lodged a dispute with the PRTB late September last year.
• The adjudication date was set for the first week in November.
• I got the adjudication report 2 weeks later in mid Nov.
• I appealed during the first week in December.
• The tribunal was held 3 weeks ago during the last week in January.
• I am still awaiting the judgement from the tribunal, have no idea how long this will take

.

Thank you for your on topic reply.

Mod note

This thread has gone terribly far off topic, please let's get back on track. Thanks

percy212

4ensic15 wrote: »

You may well win on the 90 day requirement but that may be a Pyrrhic victory. The Landlord will demand an even higher rent with 90 days notice.
You have to produce evidence and showing a variation from the average in the area is not evidence that will carry any weight. Some areas such as Rathmines for example have a large variety of accommodation types. there are plush purpose built units and old decrepit converted units and all manner of units in between. On your logic all of the plush apartments would automatically be entitled to pay the average for the area!

I already explained its overpriced based on current listings for the locale. I am not in Dublin as I said. Its a small locale. I understand all landlords want me to be wrong but I am correct in this case.

Also - If by some chance the owner tries an even bigger hike I will open a new case, and sue in civil court for retaliation.

percy212

Thanks for this v useful info Can I ask if you attended the adjudication in person?

Rodgeb wrote: »

My own recent experience may help the OP regarding PRTB timing.

• I lodged a dispute with the PRTB late September last year.
• The adjudication date was set for the first week in November.
• I got the adjudication report 2 weeks later in mid Nov.
• I appealed during the first week in December.
• The tribunal was held 3 weeks ago during the last week in January.
• I am still awaiting the judgement from the tribunal, have no idea how long this will take

.

4ensic15

percy212 wrote: »

I already explained its overpriced based on current listings for the locale. I am not in Dublin as I said. Its a small locale. I understand all landlords want me to be wrong but I am correct in this case.

Also - If by some chance the owner tries an even bigger hike I will open a new case, and sue in civil court for retaliation.

As I said, that is not evidence. You must produce evidence and the landlord to win must rebut your evidence. There is no cause of action in a civil court known as or cognate to retaliation.

percy212

4ensic15 wrote: »

As I said, that is not evidence. You must produce evidence and the landlord to win must rebut your evidence. There is no cause of action in a civil court known as or cognate to retaliation.

I am sure I can find some legal mechanism to serve my purposes.

If listings of current houses for rent along with the PTRB's own data is not evidence then what is...You are being willfully obtuse.

percy212

percy212 wrote: »

I am sure I can find some legal mechanism to serve my purposes.

If listings of current houses for rent along with the PTRB's own data is not evidence then what is...You are being willfully obtuse.

The problem is it needs to be equivalent properties.

No good saying the house each side of your is the same 3 bed house getting 1000 per month in rent and using it as evidence when the houses next door were last decorated in the 80's, have poor insulation and storage heaters while your house has just been fully renovated, full new central heating system and insulation and is asking 1300.

Rodgeb

percy212 wrote: »

Thanks for this v useful info Can I ask if you attended the adjudication in person?

Yeah, it was me, the letting agent and the guy from the PRTB.

You all sit around a round table in a meeting room that looks just like a normal office, it doesn't look like a court room from TV.

The adjudication was not very formal. The adjudicator was wearing a shirt and jumper. More like a business meeting.

The PRTB guy had gone through the evidence beforehand and to start he will ask you to give your side of the story.
Make sure to have notes with you so you remember everything you want to say.

He might ask you a few questions and then the other side get to ask questions on what you have said.

Then the landlord will give his side, go through the evidence they have submitted etc
The PRTB guy might ask a few questions. You will then be given a chance to ask the landlord questions about their evidence etc

My adjudication was over in about 15-20 minutes.

You will get details in the post from the PRTB beforehand which contains the procedures and all evidence submitted by you and landlord. It explains everything.

If you decide to appeal the tribunal is longer, more formal and in depth.

It can be nerve racking beforehand but worth it.

percy212

Thanks a lot. This is very helpful. I won't be nervous. I am very familiar with administrative type hearings from a former career I will have all my notes in order as you advise! I am looking forward to it if I am honest. I am very curious about the process.

Rodgeb wrote: »

Yeah, it was me, the letting agent and the guy from the PRTB.

You all sit around a round table in a meeting room that looks just like a normal office, it doesn't look like a court room from TV.

The adjudication was not very formal. The adjudicator was wearing a shirt and jumper. More like a business meeting.

The PRTB guy had gone through the evidence beforehand and to start he will ask you to give your side of the story.
Make sure to have notes with you so you remember everything you want to say.

He might ask you a few questions and then the other side get to ask questions on what you have said.

Then the landlord will give his side, go through the evidence they have submitted etc
The PRTB guy might ask a few questions. You will then be given a chance to ask the landlord questions about their evidence etc

My adjudication was over in about 15-20 minutes.

You will get details in the post from the PRTB beforehand which contains the procedures and all evidence submitted by you and landlord. It explains everything.

If you decide to appeal the tribunal is longer, more formal and in depth.

It can be nerve racking beforehand but worth it.