Pre 1800 sources

Hermy

Up until now for most of my research I have relied a lot on the usual on line records that we're all familiar with - civil and parish records, will calendars, census returns and the like. However a recent find has me looking beyond the remit of these sources as I try to bridge the gap between my g-g-g grandfather who died in 1837 and a very likely ancestor of his who died in 1727.

So if anyone could advise me on where to go or what to look for I'd be very grateful.

The areas are Ballintry, Co. Meath and Newcastle, Co. Dublin.

The Chieftain

Hermy wrote: »

Up until now for most of my research I have relied a lot on the usual on line records that we're all familiar with - civil and parish records, will calendars, census returns and the like. However a recent find has me looking beyond the remit of these sources as I try to bridge the gap between my g-g-g grandfather who died in 1837 and a very likely ancestor of his who died in 1727.

So if anyone could advise me on where to go or what to look for I'd be very grateful.

The areas are Ballintry, Co. Meath and Newcastle, Co. Dublin.

Ha, congratulations, now you are getting into big-boy, grown up genealogy! All that free internet search stuff if for the babies classes

Some general, non-specific observations, not particularly new, but based on 20+ years of personal graft:
- Once you are beyond the parish registers, you really don't know what, if anything you will find. No guarantees at all. I have had only mixed success in going back beyond the registers, despite a large amount of effort, on very diverse sources.
- I would start by personally checking graveyards for memorial inscriptions. Do not trust transcriptions of others! (I must post an example of a personal transcription, versus two published versions of same tombstone!).
- Check the will/admon indices - the COI ones, not the post 1858 civil ones. I found several records of relevance, but of course only to (relatively) more affluent lines. Not many, but some, and will only give you a name/address (as only the indices exist, except in limited cases).
- Are there any relevant estate records? I once found an original Elizabeth I grant, of confiscated Gaelic land, in one collection in Oxford (of no relevance to me at all).
- If you have time, trawl though the Registry of Deeds records. Enormously time consuming, with very mixed results. I usually found nothing. But when I did find something, it could be amazing and very unexpected - e.g. "marriage articles" for an 1805 marriage between run-of-the-mill small farmers, that then seemingly led to litigation. Interesting in any case for what you learn of social conditions back then.
- Were your folks patriotic? e.g. involved in 1798 or the United Irishmen? If so, then lots to read...
- Are there local history journals/publications to check? Again very random, but I have found nuggets of gold...
- All the above is for ordinary folk. If you are descended from the gentry or landowning stock, then the game is completely different. The general rule is that the better off, the better your chances.
- The unwelcome corollary is that if your ancestors were simple labourers, then the outlook is pretty grim.

In conclusion, there is a lifetime of possible effort. Always something else that can be checked!

tabbey

I totally agree with The Chieftain, it is very much a lottery, the more sources you search, the more likely you are to hit the jackpot, and each discovery leads to another line of investigation.
Of course, a major factor, is how wealthy or news worthy your ancestors were. The richer they were, the more likely they were to have a headstone, or memorials in the Registry of Deeds. The latter are very time consuming, but must be checked, if you have the time, as there might be marriage articles, or three lives leases. Even simple leases sometimes give the address of the lessee, before taking the lease.

Next month, as spring approaches, is the start of the gravestone study season. Spring and autumn are considered the best times of the year, for the angle of sunlight on the inscriptions. Always think outside the box. Just because an ancestor comes from a given parish, does not necessarily mean they always were associated with this area. By widening your area,you may find a grave some miles away, this would indicate that an ancestor had an affinity with this place, and study of P Regs, Griffith's, TAs and RoD, could reveal people with similar naming patterns there who more than likely are related, giving further pieces of the jigsaw.

Newspapers are also a possibility, but ordinary people are rarely named. I once came across a report on the assizes, where during a couple of hours ,I think seven were sentenced to death, a couple had their cases outlined, two or three others were named, but two did not even get their names in the paper.

The trouble is, the more you find, the more questions are raised, giving rise to more time spent on research.

tabbey

Another time consuming line of research, is to browse through the finding aids for loose documents in the National Archives.You may just find something possibly relevant. If you order a document that is not useful, it is not a problem (except for the staff), but you might find a gem. These documents have been preserved just so they might prove useful to any of us in the future, don't be afraid to seek them.

Hermy

Thanks for the replies. These ancestors appear to have had significant land holdings so fortunately the paper trail is slightly better than for the average family.

Newspapers have thrown up a few clues but graves have so far proved elusive.

Recently finding the full will of the chap who died in 1727 has been one of the breakthroughs which among other things names his wife and children.
If only there could be more of these...:(

A number of references to land records have turned up here and there (such as JSTOR) so I'm optimistic about visiting the Registry of Deeds.

The 'finding aids' for the National Archives is a new one on me so that's been added to the To Do list. The National Library 'Sources' database has also thrown up a few references which might bear fruit.

The research into Newcastle is well under way thanks in part to the help of a local historian and I'm hopeful of finding someone with similar local knowledge of Ballintry.

So lots to do but knowing where to look is the thing now.

The Chieftain

Hermy wrote: »

A number of references to land records have turned up here and there (such as JSTOR) so I'm optimistic about visiting the Registry of Deeds.

Just to point out that the Mormons/LDS microfilmed the Registry of Deeds records, and that is how I accessed them. Would be interested to hear opinions as to how that approach compares to visiting the actual registry.

Also, valuable information can lurk in the Registry of Deeds even for not so large land holders, such as cottiers - I pushed back one line by 45 years after I found a mention of an ancestor as having a bounding few acres to a plot which was being sold. (But having the few acres, be they ever so small, was the key). Servants can also make appearances, as witnesses.

The Chieftain

Hermy wrote: »

The research into Newcastle is well under way thanks in part to the help of a local historian and I'm hopeful of finding someone with similar local knowledge of Ballintry.

I should have included contacting local historians in my little potted list. Very wise. Even though I fancy myself as a very knowledgeable local historian, I still only got on the correct track for some of my lines after getting input from leading local historians - who have all been very, very helpful gentlemen in my experience (they were all gentlemen - why is that?).

Tullyneasky

Modesty prevents me from claiming to be very knowledgeable, but I would suggest wading through the Meath and Down lists of non-mainstream county-specific sources in John Grenham's Tracing your Irish Ancestors. His county bibliographies should also help, and you may find some of the books freely online or in the local studies departments of those counties.

You could also take a look at the members-only sources on the Ulster Historical Foundation's ancestryireland.com database. Quite a few are pre-1800.

L1011

The Chieftain wrote: »

(they were all gentlemen - why is that?).

Its a woman in Maynooth - Dr Mary Cullen. Not sure if she's still active but certainly the fountain of knowledge for the area and author of a number of papers/pamphlets/books/articles.

Hermy

Thanks Tully.

I think going forwards (or should that be backwards) a lot of research will involve simply learning about the areas in question in the hope that that will help inform the project.

Just to add, it's Newcastle, Co. Dublin rather than Newcastle, Co. Down.

Tullyneasky

Sorry. My bad.

Hermy

Not at all Tully - there's a lot of Newcastles out there.

tabbey

Hermy wrote: »

Not at all Tully - there's a lot of Newcastles out there.

And Newtowns, Newbridges etc.

This is something way beyond the belief of newcomers to local and family history.

The Chieftain

Hermy wrote: »

Recently finding the full will of the chap who died in 1727 has been one of the breakthroughs which among other things names his wife and children.

Just wondering if you could share how you found a 1727 full will? Was it one of the lucky few to survive the 1922 inferno? Personally, it is incredibly frustrating to know that were a substantial number of family wills and administrations that just literally went up in smoke and are forever lost.

Hermy

The Chieftain wrote: »

Just wondering if you could share how you found a 1727 full will - was it one of the lucky few to survive the 1922 inferno? Personally, it is so frustrating to know that were a substantial number of family wills and administrations that just literally went up in smoke and are forever lost.

The will turned up in a search of wills on Find My Past.
I was as surprised as anyone that such a thing would still exist - one of the lucky ones as you say.

tabbey

Hermy wrote: »

The will turned up in a search of wills on Find My Past.
I was as surprised as anyone that such a thing would still exist - one of the lucky ones as you say.

But what was the primary source, where did FMP get it?

Most of us just settle for the details in the Will Calendars, and if it is a pre 1900 will or administration, proved in Dublin, it is usually the only thing available.

However, if the will was proved in one of the District Registries, then a summary of the will should survive. These were written in a book kept in the District registry. Those for Northern Ireland are online on the PRONI website. The Armagh district includes many wills from Louth and Monaghan. The Derry district should include many Donegal wills, and so forth.

Also some details, may be found in Thrift / Betham extracts recorded before the Four Courts erupted. These are in the National Archives.

Hermy

Sorry - I should know better than to just point in the general direction of Find My Past.:o

The source was the Diocesan and Prerogative Wills & Administrations indexes 1595-1858.

Here's my transcript of the the text if anyone is interested.

In the Name of God
amen, I, Ignatius Moore of Ballintry in the County of
Meath Gen being sick in body but in pfect sense and memo-
-ry thanks be to God do make this my last will and Tes-
-tament in manner and forme following First I will &
my Will is that all my debts and funeral Expenses be
first paid out of my Goods and Chattles and that my body
be decently buried in the Church of Killbride in the County
of Meath at the directions of my son Patrick Item I leave
and bequeath to my sons Lewis Lawrence Edward and
Thomas Moore one hundred and twenty pounds to be
paid to them share and share like when they shall at-
-tain their full ages respectively and out of the said one
hundred and twenty pounds my will is that my Exrs
hereinafter named do order such apprentice fee as they
will think proper to be applied to put them respectively
to trades Item I further Will and my Will is that my
Daughters Bridgett and Ann Moor shall have the sume
of four score pounds to be equally divided amongst them
when they shall attain their full age or be preferrd by
the Convent of my said Exrs or one of them And in Case
they do not marry by such Consent my Will is that
the said four score pounds do go to my Daughter
marrying by such Consent Item my Will is that
my said children be not Charged by their mother or
my son Patrick for Schooling Cloathing Dyet or Lodge
ing untill my said children be otherwise pvided for
Item I leave and bequeath to my son John and to
my daughter Mary the sume of five shillings ster to
each of them Item I leave and Bequeath to my dear
Wife Christian Moore one third part of my leasehold
Interest and of all other my Goods and Chattles and
the other two third pts thereof to my son Patrick Moore
all Wch said Leasehold Interests Goods and Chattles
I devise to be subject to my debts and legacies aforesaid
Item I Will and my Will is that in Case my said
Wife should marry and that the leasehold Interests I
now have or any of them should be renewed by my son
Patrick that then and in such Case my said wife shall
have dureing her life out of my Affetts and Effects the
Sume of ten pounds ster yearly to be Paid her and
not to any husband she shall hereafter marry at the ~
discretion of my Exrs Item my Will is that in Case
my said wife do Continue unmarried that she may
dispose of ten pounds out of the third part of my leasehold
Interest Goods and Chattels and that the remainder
thereof do go to my son Pat.k he defraying her funerall
Expenses Item I leave to M.r Boylan a moy-
dore, Item I Will and my Will is that in Case any of
my said Children viz. Lewis Lawrence Edward Thos
Bridget and Ann should Dye before they attain their
respective ages or be prferred that the share or pporti-
-on of such Child or Children so intended to be pvided
for as aforesaid as shall so dye shall go share & share
like to the said Child or Children so living and so intend
–ed to be provided for and to the said Patrick and to their
said mother allways excepting the said John & Mary
And I do hereby nominate and appoint my good
friends Mr Richard Berford and Mr Mathew Whyte
my Brother in Law Exrs of this my last Will and Tes
–tament In Wittness whereof I have hereunto put
my hand and seal the fourth day of March 1727____________
Ignatius Moore loco vig Signed Sealed and Published
in presence of us Richard Martin Thomas Dermott
James Keaten

The Chieftain

Hermy wrote: »

Sorry - I should know better than to just point in the general direction of Find My Past.:o

The source was the Diocesan and Prerogative Wills & Administrations indexes 1595-1858.

Here's my transcript of the the text if anyone is interested.

Quite a few wills associated with members of the Society of Friends were preserved. The characteristic mention of "good friends" makes me wonder if this is one such - but "Ignatius" as a Christian name and some other aspects would indicate against that...
And congratulations on having the good sense to choose your ancestors so wisely. Mine all seemed to conspire to lose just about every relevant record!

Hermy

Funny thing is I'm adopted but until my rightful owners turn up they'll do just nicely.:)

Hermy

Visited the Registry of Deeds today.
Absolutely fascinating place but people certainly weren't exaggerating about the time consuming nature of researching there. Still, I can't wait to get back as I had some good finds and I'm hopeful it may open up other lines of enquiry with further research.