Dublin Bus - want more women drivers

podgeandrodge

Dublin Bus want more women drivers.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/Human-Resources/Open-Day-for-Women-Drivers/

"As Dublin Bus would like to recruit more women into bus driving roles we are offering women a unique opportunity to try out first-hand what it’s like to drive a bus at our Open Day for Women Drivers on Saturday 20 February 2016"

I'm happy for them but is this legal? (Not providing them the opportunity to try it out, but presumably giving them a better chance at the interview against men applying)

hullaballoo

Why would it not be legal?

podgeandrodge

hullaballoo wrote: »

Why would it not be legal?

I don't know, that's why I'm asking.

hullaballoo

It doesn't appear to be in any way unlawful on its face. It's surely just an advertisement seeking more female applicants.

It might become an issue if male applicants are not being considered because there are less qualified/capable women who are preferred in their place because of their gender.

As it stands, though, it seems a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Many jobs are seen as traditionally gender-based roles and it's good to see some of them have started trying to get away from that stereotype.

Silverbling

Is that because women have lower insurance as they are "safer" drivers?

Maybe it is a cost cutting exercise to reduce insurance policy premiums

Mods it is a genuine comment and not designed to cause riots on the threads but I suspect it will

Ogogo

Silverbling wrote: »

Is that because women have lower insurance as they are "safer" drivers?

Maybe it is a cost cutting exercise to reduce insurance policy premiums

Mods it is a genuine comment and not designed to cause riots on the threads but I suspect it will

Dont Dublin Bus "Self Insure"

podgeandrodge

hullaballoo wrote: »

It might become an issue if male applicants are not being considered because there are less qualified/capable women who are preferred in their place because of their gender.

This. It seems plausible that, if they want to recruit more women, that men going for driver jobs may face a disadvantage. Given that there are likely to be more men applying in the first place, the chances of females getting through are less statistically (with no discrimination). So if Dublin Bus succeed in their efforts, it would suggest that they favoured those candidates.

Cookie_Monster

Ogogo wrote: »

Dont Dublin Bus "Self Insure"

yes they do so it is a non issue

Silverbling

I thought self insure was made illegal a few years ago, I know it was on company fleet cars unless you lodged a certain amount of large money.

I had a company car at the time so not sure if it was just companies or law in general

Manach

Perhaps to avoid the appearance of bias we will have a Dublin Bus campaign in any areas where men are under represented, or perhaps not.

jimmycrackcorm

podgeandrodge wrote:

I'm happy for them but is this legal? (Not providing them the opportunity to try it out, but presumably giving them a better chance at the interview against men applying)

There's no advantage in going into an interview saying that I drove a bus for five minutes.

Victor

Dublin Bus is looking for drivers and is finding it difficult to recruit. It makes sense to encourage new pools of potential drivers.

Women are woefully under-represented as bus drivers and many other grades in the company, in part due to past discriminatory practices. Not least that the CIÉ effectively operated a closed shop type arrangement where often only family members of existing staff members got jobs and that those vacancies were usually for male staff members. Staff travel passes were in the name of the employee "and son". Amongst staff, there was strong resentment of female bus conductors, as they were more honest than their male counterparts.

It is not unreasonable to counter those past discriminatory practices.

AngryLips

I will tell you why women don't want to drive busses, it's because they can't as easily pee into a Lucozade bottle as their male counterparts.

Steve

This thread would be very different had it opened with:

"As Dublin Bus would like to recruit more men into bus driving roles we are offering men a unique opportunity to try out first-hand what it’s like to drive a bus at our Open Day for men Drivers on Saturday 20 February 2016"

or

"As Dublin Bus would like to recruit more travelers into bus driving roles we are offering travelers a unique opportunity to try out first-hand what it’s like to drive a bus at our Open Day for travelers Drivers on Saturday 20 February 2016"

or

"As Dublin Bus would like to recruit more blacks into bus driving roles we are offering blacks a unique opportunity to try out first-hand what it’s like to drive a bus at our Open Day for blacks Drivers on Saturday 20 February 2016"

Insert whatever segregation you like, it is not acceptable in terms of a recruitment drive imo.

Graham

Employers can take positive steps with a view to ensuring full equality in practice between employees, or prospective employees, on all of the nine discriminatory grounds.

Source: http://www.ihrec.ie/your-rights/what-is-equality/frequently-asked-question.html

Steve

Graham wrote: »

Employers can take positive steps with a view to ensuring full equality in practice between employees, or prospective employees, on all of the nine discriminatory grounds.

Source: http://www.ihrec.ie/your-rights/what-is-equality/frequently-asked-question.html

How is promoting a 'minority' equal treatment?

If I turned up to a job promotion for women / travelers / others and was refused entry then they are in breach? no?

If a woman turned up for a job interview - they are not allowed say it's 'men only'!!

Each of the equality points begins with "You are entitled to equal treatment whether you are...."

Graham

Steve wrote: »

How is promoting a 'minority' equal treatment?

According to the law, actions such as encouraging applications from under-represented minorities is reasonable and allowable. It's not something I would particularly have a problem with as long as it remains proportionate.

ohnonotgmail

Steve wrote: »

How is promoting a 'minority' equal treatment?

If I turned up to a job promotion for women / travelers / others and was refused entry then they are in breach? no?

If a woman turned up for a job interview - they are not allowed say it's 'men only'!!

Each of the equality points begins with "You are entitled to equal treatment whether you are...."

They are trying to encourage more female applicants. there is nothing about giving female applicants preference over male applicants. So what is the problem?

The_Minister

Could be discriminatory advertising?

Captain Chaos

Should Dunnes Stores start advertising more men to work on cash tills and more women stacking the shelves instead? Same thing.

Captain Chaos

The_Minister wrote: »

Could be discriminatory advertising?

To be honest I don't know how For Women Insurance is legal but there you go, nothing is said about it.

ohnonotgmail

The_Minister wrote: »

Could be discriminatory advertising?

its not an advertisement for an job. its an advertise to get women to come down and have a go at driving a bus with a view to applying for a position. Discrimination laws dont enter into it.

ohnonotgmail

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Should Dunnes Stores start advertising more men to work on cash tills and more women stacking the shelves instead? Same thing.

It is entirely not the same thing as has already been explained.

Graham

The_Minister wrote: »

Could be discriminatory advertising?

Unless it's to facilitate one of the positive steps allowed under the law.

eeguy

Captain Chaos wrote: »

To be honest I don't know how For Women Insurance is legal but there you go, nothing is said about it.

Its not legal.
Its4women and ForTheLads advertise to certain genders but any gender can apply and get the same quote.

Fair play to them though. There's a serious issue of many professions turning into a "boys club". No idea what the DB culture is like, but generally places with a good gender ratio are nicer places to work.

jam_mac_jam

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Should Dunnes Stores start advertising more men to work on cash tills and more women stacking the shelves instead? Same thing.

Why not?

enfant terrible

Why bus drivers why not bin men and sewerage workers anyone know?

jam_mac_jam

enfant terrible wrote: »

Why bus drivers why not bin men and sewerage workers anyone know?

Maybe the bin company have enough workers.

eeguy

enfant terrible wrote: »

Why bus drivers why not bin men and sewerage workers anyone know?

These jobs are more physically demanding, so men are preferred as we're generally stronger.

seamus

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

its not an advertisement for an job. its an advertise to get women to come down and have a go at driving a bus with a view to applying for a position. Discrimination laws dont enter into it.

This.

Discrimination isn't always illegal and holding a "women-only" or "men-only" event is legal under the equal status act if the intention of the event is to promote equality.

In this case, DB are trying to encourage more women to apply to be bus drivers, so can justify the restriction on that basis.

Provided that they're careful to not reject or accept applications on the basis of gender, it's fine. So, for example, I'm sure they'll have a stack of application forms at this event. If a man was to go up and fill one in, they couldn't reject it outright saying, "Sorry, we're only accepting applications from women today".

In any case, I'm sure their T's will be crossed on this and any man who turns up and wants to give it a go will be allowed to do so.

enfant terrible

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Maybe the bin company have enough workers.

I'll ask em. We need more bin women.

Captain Chaos

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Why not?

That's what I'm asking.

Dunnes Stores are clearly happy with 90%+ of tills worked by women and most of the shelf stacking done only by men.

The women get to sit around and chat away while the men are lifting and dragging all the boxes.

You end up with the same boys club and girls club.

Carlos Orange

hullaballoo wrote: »

It doesn't appear to be in any way unlawful on its face. It's surely just an advertisement seeking more female applicants.

It is an advertisement specifying a preference to hire women. They should have said something like "At Dublin Bus we think anyone can have what it takes to drive a bus."

enfant terrible

eeguy wrote: »

These jobs are more physically demanding, so men are preferred as we're generally stronger.

That's sexist

ohnonotgmail

psinno wrote: »

It is an advertisement specifying a preference to hire women. They should have said something like "At Dublin Bus we think anyone can have what it takes to drive a bus."

they said

As Dublin Bus would like to recruit more women into bus driving roles

this on its own is not illegal.

ohnonotgmail

enfant terrible wrote: »

That's sexist

its a statement of fact.

Carlos Orange

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

they said



this on its own is not illegal.

I never said it was. Who knows what state the law is in.

ohnonotgmail

psinno wrote: »

I never said it was. Who knows what state the law is in.

the law is quite clear.

hullaballoo

psinno wrote: »

It is an advertisement specifying a preference to hire women.

No it isn't, it's merely aspirational. "We would like to hire more women..."

In other words, they are admitting that their workforce is overwhelmingly male and they want to redress the imbalance. They have (rightly or wrongly) identified that women are disinclined to apply for jobs with them and are targeting that disinclination to encourage more female applicants.

There is nothing wrong with that. It's not even remotely discriminatory. In fact, it's the opposite.

All of the above said, it would pose a potential legal difficulty for them if they were to hire women over men based solely (or partially) on their gender but there's nothing to suggest that's the intention.

jam_mac_jam

Captain Chaos wrote: »

That's what I'm asking.

Dunnes Stores are clearly happy with 90%+ of tills worked by women and most of the shelf stacking done only by men.

The women get to sit around and chat away while the men are lifting and dragging all the boxes.

You end up with the same boys club and girls club.

Well at least Dublin Bus are trying to change things. I think that Dunnes workers do more then just chat even though they aren't lifting boxes but that's just me. I don't like to generalise.

L1011

Silverbling wrote: »

Is that because women have lower insurance as they are "safer" drivers?

Maybe it is a cost cutting exercise to reduce insurance policy premiums

Mods it is a genuine comment and not designed to cause riots on the threads but I suspect it will

Hasn't been the case for years as that insurance discrimination itself was banned.

Marcusm

podgeandrodge wrote: »

Dublin Bus want more women drivers.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/Human-Resources/Open-Day-for-Women-Drivers/

"As Dublin Bus would like to recruit more women into bus driving roles we are offering women a unique opportunity to try out first-hand what it’s like to drive a bus at our Open Day for Women Drivers on Saturday 20 February 2016"

I'm happy for them but is this legal? (Not providing them the opportunity to try it out, but presumably giving them a better chance at the interview against men applying)

Expressing a desire and adopting discriminatory hiring practices are different things.

bobbyss

enfant terrible wrote: »

That's sexist

Why?

podgeandrodge

Marcusm wrote: »

Expressing a desire and adopting discriminatory hiring practices are different things.

Indeed. That's why I said in my original post that I was alluding to a possibility that their desire may end up with discriminatory hiring practice:

podgeandrodge wrote: »

...is this legal? (Not providing them the opportunity to try it out, but presumably giving them a better chance at the interview against men applying)

The proof might be in the pudding. Given that hardly any women apply for bus driving roles (by their own admission), even a 50% success rate in final job offers after this ad would suggest discrimination was in play.

I suspect that if it were the other way around, women's groups would not be very happy at all. It's hard to believe that if Dublin Bus would like to hire more women that they won't make any effort in the interviews to make it come true.