Do you pay your childminder when you take holidays?

WannaBbride

We have a part-time childminder 2 days a week usually. She does not have formal qualifications. She handed me a letter last night saying when she was taking her own holidays which is grand but then proceeded to say that she will need to be paid her usual daily rate for the following;

-if a day she might have the kids falls on a bank holiday
-if we take holidays ourselves she wants the usual weekly rate

None of this was discussed or specified at the outset.

So is she being unreasonable expecting to be paid when we take holidays considering we are not paying her a salary, a daily rate was agreed and flexibility was agreed at the outside. I am not paying her for bank holidays. I am annoyed she didn't talk to me about it first. We have never paid previous minders for holidays taken by either party.

foodaholic

I pay my childminder when I go on holidays. I get paid when I take holidays why shouldn't she

celligraphy

Treat her the same way you would a creche pay her every week or risk loosing your place

WannaBbride

Is your childminder full time minder?

WannaBbride

Because she is part time and I am not paying her a salary. A daily rate was agreed at the outset with no mention of having to pay her for days they are not there.

Aka Ishur

Hardly reasonable for her to be out of pocket because you went off on holidays. That would be essentially 10% of her yearly wage taken off her.

endacl

Ask to see her tax clearance cert.

If she's so keen on the rules.

WannaBbride

This is all cash in hand and she is on the dole too as far as I know.

endacl

WannaBbride wrote: »

This is all cash in hand and she is on the dole too as far as I know.

So. Very clear on what she's entitled to? If she's replaceable I'd tell her to jog on. Sounds like she wants the pay and conditions of an employee/employer relationship, when in fact she's an independent contractor. Explain this to her.

I've worked plenty of part time/casual jobs in my time. Never ever got paid for a day I didn't work. And I'd have felt embarrassed asking.

Cork2015!

I have actually been wondering about this too lately. Not long back at work after maternity leave and haven't had any holidays yet.

Our childminder minds her 2 or 3 days a week.... very flexible as agreed on both sides

But I have been wondering what to do once a bank holiday or holiday comes up

Is there a middle ground for you maybe? Say for example if she does 2 days a week... and you take a weeks holidays and agree to pay her for 2 day maybe?

WannaBbride

WannaBbride wrote: »

Because she is part time and I am not paying her a salary. A daily rate was agreed at the outset with no mention of having to pay her for days they are not there.

It is something that should have been discuses at the beginning.

My niece had a child minding job and she had agreed an hourly rate and noting else she quickly ran in to issues if the parents were home say 30 minuets early they would deduct half an hours pay that sort of thing, never offered her money for petrol while expecting my niece to to take the children to school. They also expected the services of a nanny while paying for a child minder.

Needless to say my niece left but not on bad terms, she now has a job as a nanny and is paid more that the starting salary of a primary school teacher and the family are very generous to her.

The important point is that she has a detailed contract of employment with the family so there are no misunderstanding on either side, she is very happy working for the family.

Cork2015!

I have actually been wondering about this too lately. Not long back at work after maternity leave and haven't had any holidays yet.

Our childminder minds her 2 or 3 days a week.... very flexible as agreed on both sides

But I have been wondering what to do once a bank holiday or holiday comes up

Is there a middle ground for you maybe? Say for example if she does 2 days a week... and you take a weeks holidays and agree to pay her for 1 day maybe?

Deagol

WannaBbride wrote: »

We have a part-time childminder 2 days a week usually. She does not have formal qualifications. She handed me a letter last night saying when she was taking her own holidays which is grand but then proceeded to say that she will need to be paid her usual daily rate for the following;

-if a day she might have the kids falls on a bank holiday
-if we take holidays ourselves she wants the usual weekly rate

None of this was discussed or specified at the outset.

So is she being unreasonable expecting to be paid when we take holidays considering we are not paying her a salary, a daily rate was agreed and flexibility was agreed at the outside. I am not paying her for bank holidays. I am annoyed she didn't talk to me about it first. We have never paid previous minders for holidays taken by either party.

We had a childminder some years ago in Clare who had attended some FAS (or something akin to it, I can't remember details for the pedants) childminding course and tried the same thing on as you are saying above. She claimed it was advise she had been given by the trainer.

Not registered, claiming dole, not paying tax etc etc but wanted all the benefits of an employee. I didn't say a word until I had another child minder found and then we informed her on a Friday that we wouldn't be coming back.

endacl

Cork2015! wrote: »

I have actually been wondering about this too lately. Not long back at work after maternity leave and haven't had any holidays yet.

Our childminder minds her 2 or 3 days a week.... very flexible as agreed on both sides

But I have been wondering what to do once a bank holiday or holiday comes up

Is there a middle ground for you maybe? Say for example if she does 2 days a week... and you take a weeks holidays and agree to pay her for 2 day maybe?

No! You're not her employer!

olaola

I was minding a kid part time for a few months back, most certainly if the child was sick, or they weren't coming that day, I did not get paid. Equally if I couldn't look after the child due to appt/holidays whatever, I did not get paid. No question of it. TBH I think she's being a bit cheeky! Especially if you're giving her plenty of notice and not just cancelling her at the last minute.

cant26

Yes. My son goes to a childminder three days a week. We have a contract in place that clearly states if we go on holidays we still pay. If she goes on holidays we don't. Same goes for being sick. If my son is sick, we pay. If she is sick we don't.
She is a registered, Garda vetted, first aid trained childminder. If your childminder is on the dole and minding your children she is essentially breaking the law. Sounds like she wants the perks and security of doing it by the book, without doing it by the book!

WannaBbride

I have to talk to her this evening and see what she says. I see her as a casual worker and I dont see it as an employer/employee thing.

We can't afford to pay her for days the kids are not there. If she had said these terms at the outset I would have kept looking for someone.

We havent taken an actual holiday in over 5 years, its days off work pretty much and a lot of the time are planned to ease the financial burden of childcare costs if its a 5 week month - not swanning off some where, I wish!

godtabh

We pay for our holidays and not hers.

cant26

WannaBbride wrote: »

I have to talk to her this evening and see what she says. I see her as a casual worker and I dont see it as an employer/employee thing.

We can't afford to pay her for days the kids are not there. If she had said these terms at the outset I would have kept looking for someone.

We havent taken an actual holiday in over 5 years, its days off work pretty much and a lot of the time are planned to ease the financial burden of childcare costs if its a 5 week month - not swanning off some where, I wish!

Has she been your children's childminder for long? Strange that she handed you a letter instead of discussing it face to face.

WannaBbride

Only about 6 months. We had a chat at the start and she never mentioned any of this before. I was off work over christmas for 2 weeks and it was never mentioned before or after that period of time I took off, so its completely out of the blue.

esforum

WannaBbride wrote: »

This is all cash in hand and she is on the dole too as far as I know.

The law isnt something that we can just pick up and discard when needed, she is not entitled to the dole so either shop her or stop employing her and before people say it, theres plenty of stay at home parents that take kids in for extra cash without also deciding to double up with a healthy slice of werlfare

Sunny Dayz

WannaBbride wrote: »

I have to talk to her this evening and see what she says. I see her as a casual worker and I dont see it as an employer/employee thing.

OP if she is minding your kids in your home as a childminder - then you are her employer and she is your employee. You should be operating payroll on her wages and she would have rights and entitlements as an employee, including holiday pay and annual leave.

timmy880

WannaBbride wrote: »

This is all cash in hand and she is on the dole too as far as I know.

Well that changes everything. This is not legal and therefore shouldn't be going down the "it's my right to get paid when you take holidays" road...

My fiance minds kids for 20 hours a week and gets paid hourly cash in hand and agreed holiday days. She is registered for tax by the family in question and everything is legal. But if you're paying someone who is also on the dole then its all a bit of a mess and really I'd get rid, especially now that they are throwing their weight around.

Moonbeam

WannaBbride wrote: »

We have a part-time childminder 2 days a week usually. She does not have formal qualifications. She handed me a letter last night saying when she was taking her own holidays which is grand but then proceeded to say that she will need to be paid her usual daily rate for the following;

-if a day she might have the kids falls on a bank holiday
-if we take holidays ourselves she wants the usual weekly rate

None of this was discussed or specified at the outset.

So is she being unreasonable expecting to be paid when we take holidays considering we are not paying her a salary, a daily rate was agreed and flexibility was agreed at the outside. I am not paying her for bank holidays. I am annoyed she didn't talk to me about it first. We have never paid previous minders for holidays taken by either party.

That would be perfectly normal.

You don't pay her for days she takes off but you do for days that you take. I would not even think twice about paying for bank holidays I would be of the opinion of course I do.
The only exception to this is if it is a very casual childminding agreement and she only has her the odd day here and there.

bigpink

timmy880 wrote: »

Well that changes everything. This is not legal and therefore shouldn't be going down the "it's my right to get paid when you take holidays" road...

My fiance minds kids for 20 hours a week and gets paid hourly cash in hand and agreed holiday days. She is registered for tax by the family in question and everything is legal. But if you're paying someone who is also on the dole then its all a bit of a mess and really I'd get rid, especially now that they are throwing their weight around.

But she gets holidays and employee rights.As said if on dole tell em jog on

Moonbeam

endacl wrote: »

Ask to see her tax clearance cert.

If she's so keen on the rules.

Not a bad idea but you will find alot of child minders are Tax compliant as if they earn under 15k they only pay a fixed rate of PRSI.
There is a tax exemption in place but you still need to file tax returns.

Moonbeam

WannaBbride wrote: »

This is all cash in hand and she is on the dole too as far as I know.

Is she insured etc?
Are you happy with this set up?

Ring childminding Ireland www.childminding.ie if you need guidelines.

WannaBbride

It's in her home.

mirrorwall14

I don't pay my childminder for holidays or bank holidays but I specifically sought a childminder for school term days only and it was clear at the outset. She is not minding him in my own home so I am not her employer and it works perfectly for us because she wants to be with her own children during holidays

lazygal

We have done the minder in our home and had ours with a minder in her home.
When we sent them to the minder's home we always offered to pay when we took holidays, sometimes she accepted the money, sometimes she insisted we take some or all of it back. When a week was a bank holiday or we kept them out we still paid the full week. It was up to her to sort out her tax.

When we have a minder come to our home she is our employee, we registed with the revenue and sort out her tax arrangements. She builds up holiday pay but I also pay if we take holidays. EG, we're going away in August, she'll be paid, but if she wants to take a day or week off it'll depend on how much holiday time she's accrued. Once a person is working in your home for more than €40 a week they are regarded as your employee and the rights and responsibilties kick in from there.

When I minded children I was always paid when the children were kept home or on holidays or for a week with a bank holiday. If I needed a day off it was on my own expense. I had a couple of casual mindees who paid me the day rates and they never had to pay anything above that.

martinr5232

Sunny Dayz wrote:

OP if she is minding your kids in your home as a childminder - then you are her employer and she is your employee. You should be operating payroll on her wages and she would have rights and entitlements as an employee, including holiday pay and annual leave.

That is exactly how it works and i know because i learnt it the hard way.

If you have an aggrement in place if she is minding them in her own house before hand that is another matter but if it wasnt agreed tell her to jog on shes chancing her arm.

endacl

Can't wait for the "My unemployed, welfare claiming, non-tax-compliant, non-Garda vetted, non-professionally insured, non-qualified, part time casual ex-childminder is taking me to court for unfair dismissal" thread!

Aka Ishur

Trouble is you can be brought to court for it. No benefit to grumbling that their ducks are not in a row when you are skirting the law yourself. Not exactly the best defense. 'Sure she broke the law too!'

Sligo1

Aka Ishur wrote: »

Trouble is you can be brought to court for it. No benefit to grumbling that their ducks are not in a row when you are skirting the law yourself. Not exactly the best defense. 'Sure she broke the law too!'

I don't believe OP is breaking the law as the children are minded in the childminders house. Completely up to the childminder to do their tax in this circumstance. It's only up to the OP to be tax compliant if the childminder is minding the children in OPs house. OPs in the clear here.

OP I would find a different childminder. I'd be pretty annoyed if my childminder was making these demands if its only a part time casual arrangement. I would only consider these demands if I was extremely impressed with her childminding skills and thought the arrangement was really benefitting my children.

sillysocks

Our kids are part time and While it's not the same days there is a pattern each week. From the start the childminder said if a bank hol fell on a day they were due to be there then we should pay her, we also should pay if we decide not to send the child(hols/sick etc) but if she takes hols or is sick then we don't pay.

Penny Dreadful

My daughter is with a minder 3 days per week. The fee is a daily rate agreed at the begining. At the very outset I asked what the situation was re: holidays (for her and for me) and sick days, etc.
We agreed that she takes X amount of days per year and some of those are established such as at Christmas. She takes 10 days in the summer and will give me a months notice when these are booked but are generally expected to be within a certain 2 week period. There are a remaining 5 days (so 20 days taken in all) and she will always give a weeks notice at least when taking a day off.
We don't pay her for these 20 days.
If I take holidays I pay for the time my child would be there e.g. we're off to Lanzarote the last week in February and I will pay for the 3 days that my child would ordinarily be there. I have no problem with that as it is my decision to take her away.
Last week both of us were sick and I only had my daughter there one of the days but I still paid for all 3.
I am delighted with the arrangement we have. The minder is great and my child is really happy to go there and is thriving.

WannaBbride

Thanks for all the replies. I guess Im annoyed as it wasnt the agreement we made at the outset. Thinking about it yesterday I took a week off last Oct and there was no mention of her getting paid for that week so she really has just decided to change the terms without any warning or discussion with me in person.

I think I will just have to suck it up. The kids are happy there and I have no issue with her personally or with how she cares for my kids.

WannaBbride

Thanks for all the replies. I guess Im annoyed as it wasnt the agreement we made at the outset. Thinking about it yesterday I took a week off last Oct and there was no mention of her getting paid for that week so she really has just decided to change the terms without any warning or discussion with me in person.

I think I will just have to suck it up. The kids are happy there and I have no issue with her personally or with how she cares for my kids.

Penny Dreadful

A lack of clarity can all too often lead to trouble through assumptions and misunderstandings.
When I was picking a minder one of the things that I really liked about the lady I went for was that she had a clear written agreement for both of us to sign. It covered off the details around holidays, payment, emergency contacts, allergies, etc. Anything that needed clarification was discussed there and then before signing.

The funny thing is that there can still be problems. The mum of one of the other children is a school teacher and now she is objecting to having to pay for her child when she is off on mid term, etc. She hasn't got a leg to stand on as things were sorted out before her child started there and I think she has quite a cheek to try to undo things now.

rainbowtrout

WannaBbride wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies. I guess Im annoyed as it wasnt the agreement we made at the outset. Thinking about it yesterday I took a week off last Oct and there was no mention of her getting paid for that week so she really has just decided to change the terms without any warning or discussion with me in person.

I think I will just have to suck it up. The kids are happy there and I have no issue with her personally or with how she cares for my kids.

Why would you suck it up? This wasn't originally agreed, a time period has passed where you took holidays and she didn't ask for payment. As you said yourself she is paid cash in hand and is claiming the dole. I'd consider it if she was a registered, qualified, tax compliant, insurance compliant childminder.

Wabbit Ears

Our childminder gets paid for days worked and not for days not worked. That is the cash-in-hand agreement. If people want to put on airs and make out like its anything else they need a swift sharp reality check. You want employment rights etc, pay your taxes, get your certs, get your vetting and THEN come back and talk about holiday pay!!

Jen44

my mam minds our little girl and i pay her when she is on leave, i usually take holidays from work the same time obviously as I need to be there for our little one. It was never up for question both me and my husband get paid annual leave

dashcamdanny

I only pay my childminder per day.

If she has no days then she does not get paid.

Same as casual work contracts really.

But she does get well paid.

You need to make the terms very clear before you hire anyone so there is no conflict down the line.