Refused to register my wife today

Supercell

My wife is a naturalised Irish citizen and holds a current Irish passport.
We went to our local Garda station and they filled in their part of form RFA2 (supplemental list) and off we went to Dundrum Office Park where we thought it would be a mere formality to hand in the paperwork.
The person behind the counter took one look at my wife and said do we have her certificate of naturalization and passport with us (there is nowhere I can find online that states we have to bring or provide copies or originals of these - or we would have done so) and refused to take the the form even though it is stamped by our local Garda and signed.

They then told us the form we had was the old version (I downloaded it from the https://www.checktheregister.ie/PublicPages/AppForms.aspx just this morning!) and told me we needed to fill in RFA5 which is a form for someone already registered before becoming Irish which my wife (previously Chinese Citizenship) couldn't possibly have done. I tried to point this out but the person wasn't listening.
I am more than a little annoyed to say the least, is there any requirement to bring the certificate of naturalisation when registering?, even if you currently hold an Irish passport, does anyone have a link for this? I am not prepared to let this go if they are wrong.
My wife now wont be voting in the election this year because of this which is a shame.

Speedwell

She can have mine. The electors came to the door last year, asked my husband if he was an Irish citizen, and assumed I was one as well (I'm a Yank in my second year of Irish residence). I had no idea until I got called for jury duty! At first the court official thought I was trying to duck jury service, but I got it straightened out in the end.

Parky2

Did she have her passport with her?

Supercell

Parky2 wrote: »

Did she have her passport with her?

When we got the paperwork signed and stamped at the Garda station yes. It doesnt say anywhere that I can see that it needs to be presented with the registration form. Anyhow, the person in Duntrum was insistent that the certificate of naturalisation would be needed also.
The whole thing left a very bad taste in my mouth.

Godge

Supercell wrote: »

When we got the paperwork signed and stamped at the Garda station yes. It doesnt say anywhere that I can see that it needs to be presented with the registration form. Anyhow, the person in Duntrum was insistent that the certificate of naturalisation would be needed also.
The whole thing left a very bad taste in my mouth.

(1) Why did you wait until the last minute?

(2) She would have been entitled to vote in the local elections as a Chinese citizen with residency rights in Ireland so she should have been registered before hence the query

(3) Any government office is entitled to ask for proof of citizenship and identity.

Parky2

Godge wrote: »

(1) Why did you wait until the last minute?

(2) She would have been entitled to vote in the local elections as a Chinese citizen with residency rights in Ireland so she should have been registered before hence the query

(3) Any government office is entitled to ask for proof of citizenship and identity.

A lot of older people get quite annoyed at the polling station when asked for ID. It's an Irish thing.

Slydice

Hi Supercell

Here is the citizens information page on the 'Right to vote in Ireland':
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/introduction_to_the_irish_system/right_to_vote.html

It says:

You may be asked for documents such as a birth certificate or a certificate of naturalisation in order to prove your eligibility to vote.

The Department of the Environment also has a 'Register of Electors' leaflet:
http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/LocalGovernment/Voting/FileDownLoad,1897,en.pdf

On page 4, it says:

A registration authority may require a person to produce documentary evidence in support of eligibility to vote, e.g. a birth certificate or a certificate of naturalisation in the case of citizenship.

I think your wife still has the opportunity to register to vote tomorrow. On the Check the Register website (https://www.checktheregister.ie/), it says:

Supplement Closing Date
Tuesday 09-02-2016 is the closing date for your Local Authority to receive an application for entry to the Supplement to the register of electors for the general election.

So I think you can still walk in and hand them the application.

I think your best chance would be to:
- get the certificate of naturalization and passport and make photocopies of them
- do a RFA5 form and get it signed and stamped by the gardai
- Also get the RFA2 which you already have completed
- Tomorrow, Go again to the Local Authority with all of those

I don't think they would say no after that.

Good luck!


As an aside, it looks like their ability to require some documents is written directly into the 'ELECTORAL ACT, 1992'
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1992/act/23/enacted/en/print#sched2-parti

(3) The registration authority may for the purposes of their duties in relation to the preparation of a register require a person—
(a) to give any information in his possession which the registration authority may require;
(b) to produce a certificate of birth, or, if that is not practicable or convenient, to make a statutory declaration as to his age;
(c) to provide documentary evidence or to make a statutory declaration that he is a person entitled to be registered as a Dáil elector under section 8 (2);
(d) to produce a certificate of naturalisation or to make a statutory declaration that he is a citizen of Ireland;
(e) to make a statutory declaration that he is a national of a Member State of the European Communities other than Ireland,
and where a declaration is so required, any fees payable in connection therewith shall be paid by the authority requiring it.

Supercell

Cheers Slydice, I went back with the originals the next day during my lunch hour and she is now registered.

My main beef was that the documentation on the RFA2 form iteself doesn't mention this and neither does vote.ie or checktheregister.ie, I didnt go checking every possible government website for this info though I appreaciate it is there on some of them - just not the voting related ones!!! That, and and we had to go there in the lashing rain, kids trailing behind etc etc to be told we needed something extra and to fill in a form (RFA5) that is definitely the wrong one for her (for example the very first box asks to put the address where you were registered before!!).
Anyhow, it's all done now, she'll be voting, so all ended well.
Rant over and done with, thanks for all the comments

Slydice

Excellent! Well done for going to such effort.

I'm delighted that she'll have the opportunity to vote

glacial_pace71

You should still explore the issue with the Ombudsman: although they'll say "oh you exhausted local available remedies and the matter was resolved satisfactorily" it doesn't alter the basic fact that the first instinct is to refuse an application, i.e. on a presumption that someone, somewhere along the line will rectify the matter on appeal. It's that sort of culture in the public service that the Ombudsman are trying to challenge, and so although they mightn't be able to run with it as a formal complaint they might still have the local authorities issue an internal Circular on what threshold of proof or level of discretion is adequate to discharge an obligation when processing a registration application.

Some local authorities seem to have seen the wrong training videos:

http://www.google.ie/url?q=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D9v4CFjrjBxc&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjK4snj_ffKAhXHpA4KHXLiDMMQyCkIGDAA&sig2=MjHvx8v1miA8_2GIxL1BEQ&usg=AFQjCNGi7v__lFVXfeLLL-CE5YroUTxLSQ

the_pen_turner

you should have rang your local politician.
they would have it sorted in a minute if they thought there was a vote in it.

years ago when I became eligible to vote the local politician called round canvasing. I wasn't registered yet. he sorted it . some how I got registered twice

mac.in

One of my friend who recently got naturalised had actually been on the register but as a non EEA citizen. He went and submitted a form (I actually don't know the 'Reference Number' of that) when he actually changed his citizenship status as Irish citizen; he didn't submit an application meant for new entry. He was not asked to show the proof of his citizenship; he had his Irish passport with him during the application submission. He actually preferred to have been asked for his citizenship proof. He discussed with me about it as a loophole in the system.

Godge

glacial_pace71 wrote: »

You should still explore the issue with the Ombudsman: although they'll say "oh you exhausted local available remedies and the matter was resolved satisfactorily" it doesn't alter the basic fact that the first instinct is to refuse an application, i.e. on a presumption that someone, somewhere along the line will rectify the matter on appeal. It's that sort of culture in the public service that the Ombudsman are trying to challenge, and so although they mightn't be able to run with it as a formal complaint they might still have the local authorities issue an internal Circular on what threshold of proof or level of discretion is adequate to discharge an obligation when processing a registration application.

Some local authorities seem to have seen the wrong training videos:

http://www.google.ie/url?q=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D9v4CFjrjBxc&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjK4snj_ffKAhXHpA4KHXLiDMMQyCkIGDAA&sig2=MjHvx8v1miA8_2GIxL1BEQ&usg=AFQjCNGi7v__lFVXfeLLL-CE5YroUTxLSQ

He didn't have the correct paperwork, the application should have been refused first, second and third times until he did and then when he brought the right paperwork (the second time) it was sorted.

Why should he complain to the Ombudsman?

glacial_pace71

Godge wrote: »

He didn't have the correct paperwork, the application should have been refused first, second and third times until he did and then when he brought the right paperwork (the second time) it was sorted.

Why should he complain to the Ombudsman?

The difference between "may" and "shall".

Supercell

Godge wrote: »

He didn't have the correct paperwork, the application should have been refused first, second and third times until he did and then when he brought the right paperwork (the second time) it was sorted.

Why should he complain to the Ombudsman?

If it had been me applying I had the right paperwork, because my wife looked foreign additional paperwork was requested, despite having a Garda signature and stamp testifying that they had witnessed her proof of nationality and identity, you seriously don't see the disconnect there?

Pkiernan

The OPs spouse shoes up with a complete form but no ID and expects to be able to register to vote????
You can't even rent a dvd from Xtra vision without ID.

The Garda Stamp is not enough by itself.

Supercell

Pkiernan wrote: »

The OPs spouse shoes up with a complete form but no ID and expects to be able to register to vote????
You can't even rent a dvd from Xtra vision without ID.

The Garda Stamp is not enough by itself.

As I have stated several times now, the form is the ID, if she wants to vote of course she will need ID to prove her physical self is the person by the name on the form.
This is entirely different from registering her.
The form had a garda signature and stamp to stating they were satisfied that the person on the form was entitled to register.

None of the voting websites say you need to bring ID with you to REGISTER. I didn't need id when I REGISTERED or when I REGISTERED change of address. In ADDITION they demanded that she fill in the incorrect form RFA5 which is for previously registered foreign nations, the first box which asks you for your previously registered address!

Godge

Supercell wrote: »

As I have stated several times now, the form is the ID, if she wants to vote of course she will need ID to prove her physical self is the person by the name on the form.
This is entirely different from registering her.
The form had a garda signature and stamp to stating they were satisfied that the person on the form was entitled to register.

None of the voting websites say you need to bring ID with you to REGISTER. I didn't need id when I REGISTERED or when I REGISTERED change of address. In ADDITION they demanded that she fill in the incorrect form RFA5 which is for previously registered foreign nations, the first box which asks you for your previously registered address!

But the legislation says you do.

I really don't understand why people are complaining that the officials made sure that the electoral register wasn't compromised.

oscarBravo

Godge wrote: »

I really don't understand why people are complaining that the officials made sure that the electoral register wasn't compromised.

Given that the officials insisted that the wrong form be filled in, I wouldn't necessarily share your faith in them.