Summons time limit

antodeco

Hi all,
Very quick question.

OH was stopped at a checkpoint on 22nd April and asked to produce her insurance cert at a station within 10 days. This was completed.

However, today she received a summons for not producing (even though she did).

Have the summons time limits passed? My understanding is that the criminal offence only took place 10 days after 22nd April, when the apparent failure to produce insurance kicked in. Dows the limit of 6 months from the 10 days mean that the summons should have been provided proir to November?

Thanks

hullaballoo

The six month time limit only applies to the obtaining of the summons by AGS from the District Court i.e., the making of the "complaint."

antodeco

Ah OK. There was a application for a summons in June. So it would still be December in this case?

hullaballoo

I've lost you.

If the application for the summons was made in June, that's around 2 months after the alleged offence, so well within the 6 month limit.

There is no obligation on the summons to be served straight after it's applied for - the only obligation is that it is applied for within 6 months of the alleged offence.

antodeco

Ah OK. I thought there was einer a 6 month limit from date of offence, or 6 month limit from date of application. Is there no limit on when it needs to be delivered?

Hunter Mahan

antodeco wrote: »

Ah OK. I thought there was einer a 6 month limit from date of offence, or 6 month limit from date of application. Is there no limit on when it needs to be delivered?

Not really, if she did produce her documents within 10 days then there will be a computer record. I reckon you should make contact with the prosecuting police officer and bring the documents with you again.

carzony

Hi,

This is not an unusual thing for a person to produce and a few months later a summons arrives at your door. There was a thread on it not so long ago..

Best thing to do would be to turn up on the day of the court with you relevant documents and the case will be struck out there and then.

carzony

Hi,

This is not an unusual thing for a person to produce and a few months later a summons arrives at your door. There was a thread on it not so long ago..

Best thing to do would be to turn up on the day of the court with you relevant documents and the case will be struck out there and then.

4ensic15

The best thing to do is to go the the prosecuting garda in advance of the court date and show that she was insured on the date in question. then go to court and ensure that the charge is struck out. Some judges get very annoyed when people start sitting in the witness box with documents. the guard has to examine the document and it slows down the court. Judges are well aware that sometimes people who have insurance don't turn up within the 10 days or else do turn up and it is not recorded. It is unwise to rely on the garda saying he she will strike it out and there is no need to go to court. This sometimes goes wrong and the driver gets a conviction in their absence.

coylemj

4ensic15 wrote: »

The best thing to do is to go the the prosecuting garda in advance of the court date and show that she was insured on the date in question. then go to court and ensure that the charge is struck out. Some judges get very annoyed when people start sitting in the witness box with documents. the guard has to examine the document and it slows down the court. Judges are well aware that sometimes people who have insurance don't turn up within the 10 days or else do turn up and it is not recorded. It is unwise to rely on the garda saying he she will strike it out and there is no need to go to court. This sometimes goes wrong and the driver gets a conviction in their absence.

+1 But now that the summons has been issued, I wouldn't bother meeting the Garda before the court date because someone will still have to go to court on the day to show the cert to the Garda. Otherwise there is a strong possibility that the Garda will give evidence that it was not produced.

Agree also that this happens all the time. Before the court starts you will see lots of mammies/daddies/brothers/sisters/OHs waving driving licences and insurance certs. at Gardai on behalf of people in exactly the same situation as your OH.

carzony

Sorry to hijack but now the OP has the answer they were lookng for.

Something that's been bothering me for a while about this Would it not be better for any person in this situation to insist on a dismissal or acquittal instead of a strike out? considering a strike out case can come before the courts again and it can leave doubt wether the person was guilty or not.

Fred Swanson

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carzony

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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True, The possibiity still exists though so surely the best thing would be to get the acquittal and put the person's mind at ease. It would also prevent the person from being marked as a potential offender of the pulse system for the rest of their lives which is the better result imo...

Fred Swanson

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Fred Swanson

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carzony

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It is a fact though that a person will be categorised as an suspected offender in the event of a strike out case which is very unfair. An acquittal will atleast eliminate that.

hullaballoo

I am not sure AGS are really maintaining a database of people who have charged with but neither convicted nor acquitted of failing to produce documents under the RTAs.

It's not a serious charge and it would be a very ineffectual job of policing to flag such people as potential offenders.

Nearly every car driver gets caught doing something illegal at some point. You'd end up getting bogged down in your list of suspects for a serious crime if your starting point for potential offenders includes everyone who's ever appeared in court.

coylemj

carzony wrote: »

It is a fact though that a person will be categorised as an suspected offender in the event of a strike out case which is very unfair. An acquittal will atleast eliminate that.

On what system do you show up as a 'suspected offender'?

I seriously doubt if getting a summons for not producing insurance and having it struck out in the District Court gets you an entry in Pulse. They'd need a data centre the size of the Facebook place they're building in Co. Meath if that was the case.



What about the hundreds of thousands of people who over the years were found guilty of parking offences because they didn't pay the ticket? They were actually convicted so would be categorised (by your standards) as convicts.

carzony

A person needs to be marked as a suspected offender for a summons to be generated, the outcome of the case is recorded on the system. If a person is acquitted then the suspected offender marker is gone but if struck out the marker stays for life of the system..

Read the Data commissioner audit of the pulse system

''AGS stated that if the ‘Suspected Offender’ is subsequently not convicted of the criminal offence, the role of the person within that incident and the detection status of the incident may be changed to reflect that the individual is no longer a suspected offender in the case e.g. a court outcome where a person is acquitted. However, if AGS believed the person was still a suspected offender and the court case was not successful due to insufficient evidence the role of ‘suspected offender’ would remain on PULSE. AGS clarified that if a case is struck out in court, the individual concerned will still remain classified as a ‘suspected offender’. The Team enquired as to what “detection status” would be entered where a case was struck out. AGS clarified that on completion of a court case the suspected offender’s 'Detection Status' for that incident will be marked as 'Complete'. The court outcome linked to the suspected offender will reflect the result of the court case for that specific offence.''

4ensic15

coylemj wrote: »

On what system do you show up as a 'suspected offender'?

I seriously doubt if getting a summons for not producing insurance and having it struck out in the District Court gets you an entry in Pulse. They'd need a data centre the size of the Facebook place they're building in Co. Meath if that was the case.



What about the hundreds of thousands of people who over the years were found guilty of parking offences because they didn't pay the ticket? They were actually convicted so would be categorised (by your standards) as convicts.

The data centre wouldn't need to be particularly big. The Revenue Commissioners have more data than pulse and it all fits in a few prefabs in Kilmainham. All summons are numbered and recorded for the purposes of tracking through the courts and tracking repeat offenders. The striking out of the summons will be recorded along with the reason so there is no question of a shadow left lingering over anyone.

carzony

4ensic15 wrote: »

The data centre wouldn't need to be particularly big. The Revenue Commissioners have more data than pulse and it all fits in a few prefabs in Kilmainham. All summons are numbered and recorded for the purposes of tracking through the courts and tracking repeat offenders. The striking out of the summons will be recorded along with the reason so there is no question of a shadow left lingering over anyone.

It's very unfair to label people in this way. I have been in court myself for a non producer even though I produced. I was shocked to discover I was a 'suspected offender' and would stay like that because of a strike out.. Wish I knew at the time I would have requested an acquittal.

Hunderds/thousands of people a year must be categorised in the same way because not many people know how it all actually comes together..

nuckeythompson

Any time you produce documents ask the garda to stamp them, they will if asked. Go back to where you produced them and when the see the record of you producing at the earlier date ask them to stamp them as such.
I've always got mine stamped. I got an awkward garda once and just told that I heard the district court judge saying it would save a lot of hassle if people got them stamped which was true

Fred Swanson

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antodeco

The same happened to me and I got it stamped. I had asked my OH to get them stamped and she said she assumed the Garda did as he took all the documents as well as writing it down in the station book.

On a side note, she is trying to contact the Sergeant in Dublin Castle but the number just constantly calls out! So she can't even talk to the Garda first! Seems like a total waste of court time as well as an individuals!

carzony

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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It's just a very unfair way to treat people who have technically, in most cases proved their innocence. It's hardly a murder trial but still....

Hopefully they will soon stop declaring cases like this in people's vetting forms as they too is very unfair. You'll soon get actual convictions hidden but no legislation to hide minor cases where conviction was not even recorded :eek: