Ineffability of God

looksee

MOD NOTE

Split from catholic school thread.

We are of consequence because we are created in the image and likeness of God. Every life is precious to Him.

Rather than me suggesting how this may not be true, could you give me some examples of how every life is precious - with maybe reference to starving babies, people killed by drunk drivers, people killed by terrorists, abused children, and so on?

Absolam

looksee wrote: »

Rather than me suggesting how this may not be true, could you give me some examples of how every life is precious - with maybe reference to starving babies, people killed by drunk drivers, people killed by terrorists, abused children, and so on?

Given that this is the Christianity forum, is there anything to be said for ineffability?

looksee

Absolam wrote: »

Given that this is the Christianity forum, is there anything to be said for ineffability?

No? How can you say that each life is precious to god, or indeed anything about him, if you can't comprehend him?

Shrap

How very convenient that we are "made in the image of" some thing/notion too great, beautiful and powerful to comprehend. And how very, very conceited an idea "ineffability" is. A most perfectly human get-out clause for awkward questions like why do children die of cancer/starve in poverty.

lazybones32

looksee wrote: »

Rather than me suggesting how this may not be true, could you give me some examples of how every life is precious - with maybe reference to starving babies, people killed by drunk drivers, people killed by terrorists, abused children, and so on?

Human life is precious to God; not to the terrorists who kill and the abusers who abuse. The drunken driver is responsible for getting behind the wheel of the car and inadvertently killing - not God. The starving babies: there are many reasons why people - and not just babies - go hungry every day but can these reasons be attributed to the actions of other people or to God who, maybe, doesn't cause enough food to grow on the planet?

Shrap

lazybones32 wrote: »

Human life is precious to God; not to the terrorists who kill and the abusers who abuse. The drunken driver is responsible for getting behind the wheel of the car and inadvertently killing - not God. The starving babies: there are many reasons why people - and not just babies - go hungry every day but can these reasons be attributed to the actions of other people or to God who, maybe, doesn't cause enough food to grow on the planet?

So in spite of God being ineffable (entirely incomprehensible, hence "he works in mysterious ways" and we "can't know God's plan"), you know human life is precious to God? Are you sure you're not making this up? ...and I mean that with no disrespect, but surely you can see how it looks. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that human life is precious to anyone/anything other than humans.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

lazybones32 wrote: »

Human life is precious to God; not to the terrorists who kill and the abusers who abuse. The drunken driver is responsible for getting behind the wheel of the car and inadvertently killing - not God. The starving babies: there are many reasons why people - and not just babies - go hungry every day but can these reasons be attributed to the actions of other people or to God who, maybe, doesn't cause enough food to grow on the planet?

So we should attribute all the good things that happen to God, but never blame him for all the bad things that happen?

Sometimes, you can not blame Man.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suvkwNYSQo

EDIT - youtube linke seems not to be working, here's the full link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-suvkwNYSQo



Also, what does this have to do with Catholicism and education?

Huntergonzo

Praise God for the good things and excuse him for the bad things, that's interesting, but if God created everything then surely he's responsible for everything? Good and bad.

Anyway this is sort of getting away from the main point of the thread, a distraction if you will, which is a religious favourite when faced with difficult situations and questions.

lazybones32

Shrap wrote: »

So in spite of God being ineffable (entirely incomprehensible, hence "he works in mysterious ways" and we "can't know God's plan"), you know human life is precious to God? Are you sure you're not making this up? ...and I mean that with no disrespect, but surely you can see how it looks. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that human life is precious to anyone/anything other than humans.

Did I say God was entirely incomprehensible and introduce that idea as a reason why rapists rape; terrorists terrorize and people drink drive? You are refuting claims that I didn't make.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

So we should attribute all the good things that happen to God, but never blame him for all the bad things that happen?

Sometimes, you can not blame Man.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suvkwNYSQo

EDIT - youtube linke seems not to be working, here's the full link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-suvkwNYSQo




Also, what does this have to do with Catholicism and education?

Didn't watch that link and probably don't need to. No, Princess, I don't blame anyone - I assign responsibility where it seems to lie. Again, God didn't make people become terrorists, drunken drivers or abusers. I'm not going to explain the causes of famine because I'd only be wasting my time.

And what does this have to do with Catholicism and education? Ask Looksee. She asked me questions and I replied. I've answered some educational aspects that were raised and someone else took the thread off-topic but you seem to have missed that point.

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Anyway this is sort of getting away from the main point of the thread, a distraction if you will, which is a religious favourite when faced with difficult situations and questions.

Oh, that is rich coming from you! First you said the RCC were preventing genuine scientific facts from being taught and when shown that 1) evolution isn't a primary subject and 2) the RCC don't control the curriculum, you ignore your wrong position and change the point to being that no religious discrimination should be allowed (because the Dept. of Ed and the RCC are in league). Have you gone full-retard or is this how you always are? Don't answer that, I don't want to know.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

lazybones32 wrote: »

Didn't watch that link and probably don't need to. No, Princess, I don't blame anyone - I assign responsibility where it seems to lie. Again, God didn't make people become terrorists, drunken drivers or abusers. I'm not going to explain the causes of famine because I'd only be wasting my time.

Then yes, you did need to watch the video; because it delt with entirely natural issues, somepltely sperate to the issues you raise above. I can;t argue whether or not you;d assign responsibilty wheer it lies unless you do watch and comment on it specifically.

It's less than 2.30 long and considering you're taking the time to engage in debate, I don't see how it could be a waste of your time.

And what does this have to do with Catholicism and education? Ask Looksee. She asked me questions and I replied. I've answered some educational aspects that were raised and someone else took the thread off-topic but you seem to have missed that point.

Fair point, it was someone else (Absolom) who dragged the thread of topic. Apologies

lazybones32

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Fair point, it was someone else (Absolom) who dragged the thread of topic. Apologies

No. It was looksee. #32.

I've no problem with threads going off-topic, it's a reflection of how humans talk/interact.

lazybones32

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Then yes, you did need to watch the video; because it delt with entirely natural issues, somepltely sperate to the issues you raise above. I can;t argue whether or not you;d assign responsibilty wheer it lies unless you do watch and comment on it specifically.

It's less than 2.30 long and considering you're taking the time to engage in debate, I don't see how it could be a waste of your time.

That was a waste of time. Stephen Fry's rant is hardly a basis for whether God cares for humans.
Bone cancer in children: we live in the real, natural World. God never promised to wrap people in cotton wool or remove any/all suffering in life but He did promise to always be with us in everything good and bad that happens. There is a joke about a preacher who was being chased by a hungry lion: the preacher, full of faith, called on God to make the lion a fellow-Christian. The lion paused, looked skyward and said "Thank you Lord, for the food I am about to receive." Won't win any awards at comedy festivals but it illustrates a point. Cancer and carcinogens are a natural part of life on earth: why are they here? I don't know. That topic could go on and on...
The eye-bursting insect: doesn't exist. D Attenborough famously cited this on a few tv/radio shows but no such insect exists. I read that New Scientist did an article on it, shortly after Sir David's accusation and found that the only insect that matches the description, doesn't cause as grisly an outcome as claimed.

Now, if I've missed any other important point from that clip...eh...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

We need to recap:

The gist of this post, correct me if I am wrong, is that life is precious to God but when it is taken away, it is taken away by man to whom life is not precious, and not God.

lazybones32 wrote: »

Human life is precious to God; not to the terrorists who kill and the abusers who abuse. The drunken driver is responsible for getting behind the wheel of the car and inadvertently killing - not God. The starving babies: there are many reasons why people - and not just babies - go hungry every day but can these reasons be attributed to the actions of other people or to God who, maybe, doesn't cause enough food to grow on the planet?

To which I argued that sometimes life is taken away without any intervention from man. If we praise God for the things that are good in life, as Christians are taught to do so, then we should also attiribute the blame for the bad things that happen - at least, those that are not a direct cause of human beings, i.e. terrorist, drunk drivers, et al.

lazybones32 wrote: »

That was a waste of time. Stephen Fry's rant is hardly a basis for whether God cares for humans.
Bone cancer in children: we live in the real, natural World. God never promised to wrap people in cotton wool or remove any/all suffering in life but He did promise to always be with us in everything good and bad that happens. There is a joke about a preacher who was being chased by a hungry lion: the preacher, full of faith, called on God to make the lion a fellow-Christian. The lion paused, looked skyward and said "Thank you Lord, for the food I am about to receive." Won't win any awards at comedy festivals but it illustrates a point. Cancer and carcinogens are a natural part of life on earth: why are they here? I don't know. That topic could go on and on...
The eye-bursting insect: doesn't exist. D Attenborough famously cited this on a few tv/radio shows but no such insect exists. I read that New Scientist did an article on it, shortly after Sir David's accusation and found that the only insect that matches the description, doesn't cause as grisly an outcome as claimed.

Now, if I've missed any other important point from that clip...eh...

What I'm trying to get at is the idea that God should be absolved from any responsibilty. Suddenly, it is no longer "God's will" it's now "a natural part of life on earth"...?

Well, what is the origin of this natural part of life on Earth? To me, if it is a God, it is one that does not value the preacher's life as much as his followers would claim.

Absolam

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Fair point, it was someone else (Absolom) who dragged the thread of topic. Apologies

No fair!

Looksee asked why every life should be of consequence to god, and if it were how every life could be precious given starving babies, people killed by drunk drivers, people killed by terrorists, abused children, and so on. I only offered a potential answer from a Christian perspective.

Absolam

looksee wrote: »

No? How can you say that each life is precious to god, or indeed anything about him, if you can't comprehend him?

Because even if he is beyond comprehension, what he says isn't (necessarily)? We could start with Thou Shalt Not Kill, which certainly indicates some antipathy to destroying life, wouldn't you say? Maybe we're extrapolating to say that it therefore has some value to him, which might well extend to preciousness. So we could look at some of the more flowery verses like Matthew 6:26–30, which points out the huge value he places on human lives? Or just take the Catholic Church's Catechism "2288 Life and physical health are precious gifts entrusted to us by God".
It seems we don't need to comprehend (the entirety of) him in order to know some things about him, so it seems pretty obvious that ineffability can account for the fact that we understand life is precious to him but still don't understand why he allows terrible things to happen to people. Including starving babies, people killed by drunk drivers, people killed by terrorists, abused children, and so on.

Shrap wrote: »

How very convenient that we are "made in the image of" some thing/notion too great, beautiful and powerful to comprehend. And how very, very conceited an idea "ineffability" is. A most perfectly human get-out clause for awkward questions like why do children die of cancer/starve in poverty.

Well, I can't say I can see how you consider the idea 'conceited'. It's certainly an excellent philosophical backstop. So good perhaps that I'm sure someone somewhere would argue that the very idea is divinely inspired.

Shrap wrote: »

So in spite of God being ineffable (entirely incomprehensible, hence "he works in mysterious ways" and we "can't know God's plan"), you know human life is precious to God? Are you sure you're not making this up? ...and I mean that with no disrespect, but surely you can see how it looks. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that human life is precious to anyone/anything other than humans.

The construal of ineffability I offered doesn't state that He is entirely incomprehensible, it states "While human beings can come to some knowledge of God through reason and even more so through God's revelation, yet he continues to be incomprehensible. Through his immanent actions within the world of time and history God reveals that he is completely other than the created order and so transcends it. As such God reveals himself as an ineffable mystery." There's plenty of material out there to suggest the Christian God holds life to be precious, not least from the Catholic Church. The Pope has said in a number of sermons that life is precious, and according to Papal infallibility "his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly held irreformable, for they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, an assistance promised to him in blessed Peter". So it sounds like God is in agreement....



Anyways, all very much OT...

looksee

Through his immanent actions within the world of time and history God reveals that he is completely other than the created order and so transcends it. As such God reveals himself as an ineffable mystery

It seems to me that this is pretty much a definition of faith, and we are never going to meet on that level. As this is the Christianity forum where your beliefs have protection, I am not going to attempt to argue it, it would just become an 'oh yes it is, oh no its not' exchange.

PS thank you for 'immanent', I had not come across it before.

looksee

Through his immanent actions within the world of time and history God reveals that he is completely other than the created order and so transcends it. As such God reveals himself as an ineffable mystery

It seems to me that this is pretty much a definition of faith, and we are never going to meet on that level. As this is the Christianity forum where your beliefs have protection, I am not going to attempt to argue it, it would just become an 'oh yes it is, oh no its not' exchange.

PS thank you for 'immanent', I had not come across it before.

Absolam

looksee wrote: »

It seems to me that this is pretty much a definition of faith, and we are never going to meet on that level. As this is the Christianity forum where your beliefs have protection, I am not going to attempt to argue it, it would just become an 'oh yes it is, oh no its not' exchange.
PS thank you for 'immanent', I had not come across it before.

Not my beliefs; I'm just pointing out it's part of the package. If you're discussing the Christian God, ineffability is a characteristic of the deity. Like arms are a characteristic of Dattatreya, or wisdom is a characteristic of Omoikane. Saying God is not ineffable is pointless; if he's not ineffable then you're talking about the wrong god.

Manach

Well, for the benefit of my fellows might I recommend the works of Peter Kreeft (eg Faith and Reason: The Philosophy of Religion). There is no facile, easy or all in one answer on the subject of suffering, evil or misfortune. That can be left to others. Instead writers like Mr. Kreeft present a way to engage, think on and consider how these issues effect others and ourselves within their own framework.

hinault

This

And the word of the Lord came to me, saying:

Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations.

Absolam

And this

Jeremiah was a bullfrog, he was good friend of mine
I never understood a single word he said
But I helped him drink his wine
He always had some mighty fine wine