Private van insurance

rb25

Hi.

I have a VW Transporter as a second vehicle. It is registered under my own name and not under a company.

Calling around to 7 or 8 different insurance companies I have been honest with them about what it will be used for i.e. driving myself around. I could be dishonest but chose not to be.

They won't quote me. I'm 40 years old and never had a claim. They haven't explained why they won't quote me other than that it's their policy not to insure vans privately.

What companies (if any) will provide private van insurance?

Aurellia

Did you try with a broker ?

I know my DH just recently got a small Transit run around insured privately to Save his No claims as the car is in my name . It was with our Broker, but i can check which company if you need. He is now a limited company now and has fleet for the work Vans but this is his private runner. Maybe that helped.

However when it comes to taxing it,since January 2016 - you now have to have a letter from the Revenue Commissioners if you are not a limited company, and are private ownership and not registered as "self employed" you won't get this.

You write in requesting it with your PPS number, Address and what trade you are & they will send you back a letter confirming these details and that you are registered for Income Tax/ VAT/ PAYE etc.

Now there's ways and means around this- you could download a TR1 and register as a self employed painter for example and at the end of the Year you just submit a zero income tax return if you genuinely aren't trading and are a PAYE employee . Very easy to do - no accountant needed !! But do read up on being a sole trader .

Not very ethical but they have made it so hard to register and tax a commercial van to discourage non tax compliance by certain people.

rb25

Aurellia wrote: »

Did you try with a broker ?

On the issue of Tax it is currently declared off-the-road. It passed the CRW test last week with no advisories. I intend to tax it privately and do everything above board. From my understanding it is not possible to tax it without first obtaining insurance. It would be illegal for me to tax it commercially and use it for private purposes. So in the case where it has to be taxed privately I also need to insure it privately.

I tried 2 different brokers. I got a different story from them than the insurance companies.

For the insurance companies, I called FBD, Zurich, Liberty, Allianz directly. Via their website I was able to get a quote by putting in the correct details. When I called them back to pay for the quote I had received I was told different stories:

1. We can't honour the quote because we don't offer a "product" for "social, domestic and pleasure" purposes.

2. "We don't quote on vehicles over 14 years old."

3. "We only insure commercial vehicles for commercial purposes."

4. "If you were a Farmer we could insure it."

For the above, my response to them was to ask for a letter giving valid reasons why they are refusing to provide me with a quote. I also asked about the thousands of other vans on the road that are used for going to the shops etc. and how valid their insurance policies are and whether they are insured privately for this purpose - got no response.

For the brokers, I tried online and called Chill, Sheridan, PibaSure, O'Leary's. All of them tried to get insurance but none could provide a "product".

In my specific case the van will be used rarely. It is going to just be for pottering about.

Nobody from either the brokers or insurance companies seems to be able to give me a clear set of rules that they abide by. My case seems to fall into a grey area.

sogood

Many years ago I found myself in a somewhat similar situation. I know things have changed since then, regarding certain regulations, but there are still a lot of such grey areas in existence.

I had been driving cars for years, with a hefty No Claims Bonus built up. I decided, for work reasons, to sell the car and get a small van instead and got a Liteace. My insurer wouldn't allow me to just transfer the motor policy and pay any difference, so I had to cancel my motor insurance and lose some of the premium paid, for "administration etc." Then, as the policy on the van was a new policy, of a different vehicle type, they wouldn't accept my NCB and made me start from scratch.

But they wouldn't give me commercial cover, so I was still a "private and domestic" driver. Consequently, I had to tax the van as Private.

Added to that, I couldn't do an NCT, as the records showed it as a commercial vehicle, but I couldn't do a DOE either, as it was taxed as a private vehicle!

As mentioned, things have changed somewhat since then, but it's indicative of how our system works, or doesn't!

rb25

One of the excuses Zurich gave me was that "they insure commercial vehicles that have an equivalent car type van". For example a Volkswagen Golf.

So how does it work that there are so many commercial vehicles on the road? Are they ALL registered to companies legitimately? I know of at least 4 people who drive transits & use they as their daily driver for non-commercial purposes. I can't be the only person who wants to drive a van privately & irregularly to get me from a to b.

Currently because of the insurance companies policies I am forced to go down the dishonest route while trying to be honest.

To Elland Back

rb25 wrote: »

Currently because of the insurance companies policies I am forced to go down the dishonest route while trying to be honest.

Nobody is forcing you to be dishonest, that is a decision you would make all on your own, just like some (not all) of the other people you know that have a van for private use.

There are 2 main reasons that insurers avoid private use on vans

1) The lack of seat/seatbelt for passengers being carried in the rear
2) Commercial vehicle policies only cover "use in connection with the business declared in the schedule". This is fine if you have a vehicle that warrants the use of a van, but insurers are worried that a private user could be using it for activities they might normally refuse

Yes, commercial users do carry passengers but are not usually reliant on it after hours, so the risk is lower.

rb25

To Elland Back wrote: »

Nobody is forcing you to be dishonest, that is a decision you would make all on your own, just like some (not all) of the other people you know that have a van for private use.

It's compulsory to have insurance in order to drive the van. I am being provided with no quote at all. I will be quoted if I insure it commercially by telling fibs or creating a fictitious company and declare a 0% tax return. So under the "rules" or a more descriptive term - lack of clarity on private insurance for vans by insurance companies I don't get insurance. Not one of them today were able to clearly define their rules to me. There's the force.

rb25

To Elland Back wrote: »

1) The lack of seat/seatbelt for passengers being carried in the rear.

I was specifically asked on a number of occasions today "how many seats are in the van?"

I answered that there are two in the front. So there is no risk involved for them there as there are no seats to carry passengers in the rear of the van they won't be carried in the rear as it would be unsafe to do so - only in the front.

To Elland Back

rb25 wrote: »

I was specifically asked on a number of occasions today "how many seats are in the van?"

I answered that there are two in the front. So there is no risk involved for them there as there are no seats to carry passengers in the rear of the van they won't be carried in the rear as it would be unsafe to do so - only in the front.

Yes, but when the van is for private use, there is a higher chance somebody will hop in the back for a quick lift home, going to the footy, just around the corner etc when you are out in the evening or at weekends. They're asking the question, because it is a problem

Gumbo

In order to sure a commercial vehicle, you need to be employed in a position that warrants the use or need it for your own business. In my case I drive to building sites all day and I'm an employee so I fit the bill for Axa. The van then needs to be taxed commercially and CVRT'd as they cannot insure a can privately that's taxed commercially and vice versa. They also can't insure a CVRT'd van privately as its tested for commercial purposes.

Commercial insurance also covers you for social and domestic purposes (well Axa do anyway).

Gumbo

In order to sure a commercial vehicle, you need to be employed in a position that warrants the use or need it for your own business. In my case I drive to building sites all day and I'm an employee so I fit the bill for Axa. The van then needs to be taxed commercially and CVRT'd as they cannot insure a can privately that's taxed commercially and vice versa. They also can't insure a CVRT'd van privately as its tested for commercial purposes.

Commercial insurance also covers you for social and domestic purposes (well Axa do anyway).

flyingsnail

rb25 wrote: »

It's compulsory to have insurance in order to drive the van. I am being provided with no quote at all. I will be quoted if I insure it commercially by telling fibs or creating a fictitious company and declare a 0% tax return. So under the "rules" or a more descriptive term - lack of clarity on private insurance for vans by insurance companies I don't get insurance. Not one of them today were able to clearly define their rules to me. There's the force.

You could always get 3 letters of refusal from the insurance company and go to the Declined Cases Committee of Insurance Ireland

rb25

kceire wrote: »

They also can't insure a CVRT'd van privately as its tested for commercial purposes.

But you also cannot put a commercial van through an NCT which is the roadworthiness test for private vehicles. So there is a grey area here in the law it seems.

sept09baby

I was in a similar situation a few years ago. Bought a van for private use (mainly for bring my dogs places etc). Had hassle at first but got insured through a broker http://www.firstireland.ie/. It was insured and taxed privately but had to get the CVRT. Never an issue with it being used privately

rb25

sept09baby wrote: »

I was in a similar situation a few years ago. Bought a van for private use (mainly for bring my dogs places etc). Had hassle at first but got insured through a broker http://www.firstireland.ie/. It was insured and taxed privately but had to get the CVRT. Never an issue with it being used privately

I tried the firstireland website. No quote.

I was told by a broker today that within the last 4 months "they have started to prevent brokers from insuring vans unless they are insured for commercial purposes". They were still not able to give me a reason for this change or why it happened in the "last 4 months". They also were not able to explain who "they" are other than the underwriters.

corkonian60

I just insured my 2014 small two-seater van with Liberty. It is taxed for private use but pay commercial rates and it annually goes through CVRT. I have been with Liberty for two years. They informed me upon my renewal that they are removing certain occupations from their approved list of people who are eligible to drive commercial vehicles. Artists are on that list (which I am one). I was told if you do not drive your van for work purposes five days per week, then you cannot view it as a commercial vehicle. The laws changed this year, but because they had already sent me a quote, they would honor it only this year.
The laws seem to unfairly define what type of vehicle a driver may choose to buy, which strips a citizen from the liberty of freedom of choice.
Will private owners of commercial vehicles need to start lobbying their local TD's for changes in legislation so we are not forced to sell our small vans?

cupan_tae

Came across this post through a google search as I am going to be in this same position in May this year. Looks like an absolute disaster. OP were you able to get sorted or did you have to go down another route ?

corkonian60

Cupan_tae, My van insurance is up for renewal in June, so I can't get a quote until April. A friend said some are skirting the insurance companies new exemptions by declaring an occupation that is listed.

cupan_tae

Cheers for the reply, But are you self employed ? I.e. commercial insurance not private ?

My scenario is I require private insurance (like the OP)

corkonian60

cupan_tae, I am a self-employed artist who needs the van for both private and commercial use. I am taxed as private, but I have had to go through CVRT and Liberty Insurance, who I've been with for three years would not insure me privately, but insisted the small van had to be insured commercially because it was a two-seater van. As of 2017, all insurance companies have removed artists (among a few other occupations) as insurable.

oinkely

I drive a commercial crewcab van on a daily basis and i do not currently use it for any commercial venture.

As such it is taxed privately (based on engine size so €700 odd per year). I cannot get a regular insurance quote on it, ie that which you would get on a standard car as it is classed on the logbook as a commercial vehicle. My insurance policy is through Axa and it is a 'commercial' policy that does not state an occupation, just that it can be used solely for SD&P use. The vehicle must go through an annual CVRT.

The number of insurance companies that will provide a quote for this type of insurance is now down to zero from what I can see. I renewed my policy last august and could not get a quote from any alternative supplier directly. I did get one quote through a broker in the North and one broker based in swords was able to get me a quote through Axa but it was more expensive than my already astronomical quote to renew directly with Axa.

Axa will not quote new business for this class of insurance any more directly to the public.

It's a ridiculous situation where one cannot choose the vehicle one wants to drive because getting an insurance company to cover it is not possible. I can't understand how my risk profile for a nissan leaf or a volkswagen passat is so radically different when I am driving my van. I am the same driver, with the same people on board (my family or friends). Yet all of a sudden I am an uninsurable risk? Doesn't make any sense. The fact that i have had the same vehicle for the past 4 years with no claims makes not a bit of difference either.

FWIW - my premium this year was quoted at €1250, the same product last year was €550 and the year before that was €450. Eventually got it down to €750 by haggling a bit (but really not much room to haggle as they have you over a barrel) and reducing the cover to TPFT only.

A friend has very recently changed from a standard van to a crew cab, due to an expanding family. Same vehicle, just 6 years newer (so inside the magical 10 years old black list). Same use profile, all done legitimately, taxed at private rates, cvrt'd and use declared to insurance company. His renewal quote has come in at €1500. Again, feckin madness.

The insurance companies make up the rules and we have to comply, because the law says so. It's a ridiculous situation.

rb25

cupan_tae wrote: »

Came across this post through a google search as I am going to be in this same position in May this year. Looks like an absolute disaster. OP were you able to get sorted or did you have to go down another route ?

Unfortunately I gave up in the end and went another route. I converted the van to a camper. Filled out the forms etc. and paid the tax for a camper and insured it through a club.

I spent months chasing insurance companies with the 3 letters of refusal rule. I went to the Insurance Federation (a crowd of shills which actually represent the insurance industries wishes not the customers) and they then went to Allianz whom eventually quoted me around 950 euros to insure the van.

The laughable thing (if this were funny) is that I am insured with Allianz on an Audi that is more powerful and is worth more than the van. But yet they refused to quote on the van. Same person driving with same driving skills and same risk.

It's a set up in favour of extorting money from all of us.

When I got the quote of 950 I sent them a list of questions on how they calculated the 950 in relation to my quote. They initially didn't answer. I sent the questions again. They then came back with some bs. I asked again. Eventually I raised a complaint and asked the same questions. I was given an answer that they would not tell me how they calculate the quote because their methods of calculation are their IP (intellectual property).

My argument as to why they should tell customers is simple. If I go to any business, for example, a builder, that builder will give me a quote and give me a break down of how they calculated the total quote - materials, labour etc. Same for a mechanic, same for a plumber.

Yet here we are with some rule that says an insurance company can pluck a car insurance quote out of their ahole without any form of detail as to how they calculated.

It's criminal how they are treating everybody who tries to acquire any type of insurance in Ireland.

Jules_G

I contacted First Ireland, yesterday, via the link on this thread and insured my van privately with no hassle at all. It was also much cheaper than I expected! I rang them rather than trying to get an online quote

stampydmonkey

Jules_G wrote: »

I contacted First Ireland, yesterday, via the link on this thread and insured my van privately with no hassle at all. It was also much cheaper than I expected! I rang them rather than trying to get an online quote

Hey Jules, do u mind if I ask what ur premium was? No bother if u don't want to say.

Jules_G

it was €730 fully comp for me and my husband. FBD quoted €1200

rb25

Jules_G wrote: »

I contacted First Ireland, yesterday, via the link on this thread and insured my van privately with no hassle at all. It was also much cheaper than I expected! I rang them rather than trying to get an online quote

What did you say your occupation is? (and were you honest). It all seems to revolve around occupation whether they will quote or not.

memyself1

I got a quote from First Ireland for €1100 for private on a crewcab.
I have over 12 years no claims etc, and price has risen from 2.0 car private €550 to jeep 2.0 €1100, its ridiculous but they do have you over a barrel.

Tax is also going to rise to €700

When you are honest in this country you get stung...

El lugo

I fully agree with the above comment. Does anyone know why it is such an issue to own and give a van privately? I mean you can only choose from a handful of insurance companies and also you can't avail of the post 2008 tax rates. There seems to be an effort on part of insurance companies and government to get the private van of the road why is this?

bluegreenmae

corkonian60 wrote: »

I am taxed as private, but I have had to go through CVRT and Liberty Insurance, who I've been with for three years would not insure me privately, but insisted the small van had to be insured commercially because it was a two-seater van.

If anyone can help me work out whether it can be a different story for a 5 seater private insurance wise I'd be eternally grateful! I want a wee van for a mobility scooter so I can get about a bit more, but anything that fits the private bill - e.g. Renault Kangoo, Citroën Berlingo- and is within my price range- round €1k - makes mechanic friends audibly wince! And I need it to have the best chance at lasting.

A Vauxhall Combo would be perfect and there are plenty of them, crew cab as well as 2 seaters, with 1.2 engines- my car is about to pack in so I'm trying to find a way round this and whether the seating makes a difference??
It is breaking my heart to think that this nonsense red tape will stop me from roaming free on the paths of Donegal instead of wistfully looking at them from the seat! Or worse, stop me getting out to shops.

Even if I was inclined to be slefty about it and try claim commercial use, I'm on disability benefits so couldn't go that route.
Exasperating!