Redundancy?

The Aussie

I've been working for someone in the construction industry since mid 2009, I was his foreman from mid 2010 up until Seprember of 2015 when I was told that he no longer required a foreman, although I don't remember that conversation and was never given to me in writing, I was still driving his van up until January of this year though as he demanded I start paying for all (personal and work use) the diesel going into his sign written work van in November without a vehicle and needed to buy one and sort insurance and so on, so I got caught paying his diesel for about 6 weeks.

Of recent he has told me he will be cutting my wages by 10% as I no longer perform the role of foreman, a suggestion I refused and reminded him that any pay reduction has to be agreed upon by both parties in writing

Coupled with him giving me a Stage 1 Verbal Warning the same day he tried to force a pay cut on me, (almost all of the Verbal Warning stuff I have corrected him on via email correspondence), along with cancelling the pension a few years ago I think the writing is on the wall for my exit

So I think I quailfy for redundancy on 3 separate points,
- Loss of Title (in house redundancy)
- Forced Pay Reduction
- Worsening Conditions

All the above has been discussed in length in a string of emails between my employer bad me

I'm currently on holidays at the moment, but the pay reduction will take effect next week when I start back, do I have to go back to work to claim redundancy or do I have to go back to work to be issued a pay slip for the reduced wages before I leave?

Molly999

The company has to decide to make you redundant or not. You cannot 'claim redundancy, !

Avatar MIA

What you might be looking at is constructive dismissal.

Graham

Have a chat with these guys:

https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/

https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/Workplace_Relations_Services/Info_Cust_Serv/

The Aussie

Ok, I think it's obvious that I'm just piecing things together here, I did contact the workplace relations people straight after I was told my wages were going to be cut by 10% and 4 weeks later I received a email back with a load of copy and pasted information that I had already read, maybe they might be more proactive after it has actually happened.

So he has to offer a redundancy to me? He did not offer one to me in September when he claims he told me that he no longer has need for a foreman as he now runs his company differently I can't see him offering me one now... What are the other options? Looking at a online redundancy calculator it should be around €9800, knowing he does not have that money I certainly can't see him offering it.

Can someone explain constructive dismissal to me in plain language, just been looking at it and I'm a bit confused to be honest.

schaffer1969

The Aussie wrote: »

Can someone explain constructive dismissal to me in plain language, just been looking at it and I'm a bit confused to be honest.

From citizensinformation.ie

"Constructive dismissal arises where you terminate your contract of employment, with or without prior notice, due to the conduct of your employer. Your employer's conduct however must have been such that it would have been reasonable for you to terminate your contract without giving notice."

Basically, you are forced to quit work due to something your employer has done. Say they want to get rid of you and put you in another crap role instead so you will be forced to leave.

The Aussie

Thanks for the reply, I have told him in email that with him forcing the cost of the Diesel (now drive my own car because it's cheaper to run) and a 10% pay cut on top of it amounts to over €100 a week he has signalled that will be taken off me, and with child maintainence, rent, bills and other expenses I could not afford to stay as it will cost me money to work for him, he has essentially made my position untenable and I will have to go...

What is the process for going down the constructive dismissal route?

schaffer1969

The Aussie wrote: »

What is the process for going down the constructive dismissal route?

Take a look at the following

citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/dismissal/constructive_dismissal.html

This could take a while and even if you win you may not see any money.

The Aussie

schaffer1969 wrote: »

This could take a while and even if you win you may not see any money.

Excuse my naivety, but how would that work?
As in he he looses he does not have to pay any money?

schaffer1969

The Aussie wrote: »

Excuse my naivety, but how would that work?
As in he he looses he does not have to pay any money?

You stated earlier that he does not have the €10k to pay redundancy.
If this is the case he may not have any money to pay you even if you win.

The Aussie

Wouldn't there be a judgment made against him to pay?
Or is paying optional

I know he doesn't have a great deal at the moment but at the end of summer he has enough to go off on holidays buy new toys and generally lives like a phoney millionaire till January again...

pyramuid man

The Aussie wrote: »

Wouldn't there be a judgment made against him to pay?
Or is paying optional

I know he doesn't have a great deal at the moment but at the end of summer he has enough to go off on holidays buy new toys and generally lives like a phoney millionaire till January again...

I think you need to stop looking at his lifestyle and think about what you are really considering here.

You are currently in a job that was from the sounds of it, a temporary promotion and this has now ended. You are looking at a 10% pay cut as a result of this and you no longer have the use of a company vehicle also. You also say that the 10% equates to over €100 per week, so that would mean you are earning over €1k per week.

If you leave your job, you will be on social welfare and even that you wouldnt be entitled to claim for over 6 weeks.

Maybe I am not seeing something but I cannot see anything that would constitute constructive dismissal here and from what I can see, you had some perks that are being reined in on and taken back.

Mrs OBumble

The Aussie wrote: »

Wouldn't there be a judgment made against him to pay?
Or is paying optional

I know he doesn't have a great deal at the moment but at the end of summer he has enough to go off on holidays buy new toys and generally lives like a phoney millionaire till January again...

Not absolutely optional. But still pretty damn hard to enforce.

The Aussie

pyramuid man wrote: »

I think you need to stop looking at his lifestyle and think about what you are really considering here.

You are currently in a job that was from the sounds of it, a temporary promotion and this has now ended. You are looking at a 10% pay cut as a result of this and you no longer have the use of a company vehicle also. You also say that the 10% equates to over €100 per week, so that would mean you are earning over €1k per week.

If you leave your job, you will be on social welfare and even that you wouldnt be entitled to claim for over 6 weeks.

Maybe I am not seeing something but I cannot see anything that would constitute constructive dismissal here and from what I can see, you had some perks that are being reined in on and taken back.

What would make you think that the role I've held for 5 years was a temporary role?

He needs a foreman, just that he says the role no longer exists, he still needs someone to run the work, collect materials and liaise with him as well as other administrative things.

The work van is not a "perk" it is necessary for him to run his company, and the idea of asking a worker to pay for the Diesel for him to run his van is absolutely ridiculous, imagine if a company like the ESB turned around tomorrow and said that all the staff now had to pay for all Diesel for the running of their business... So Diesel is certainly not a "perk"

The €100 a week out of my take home pay constitutes the 10% pay cut and also him demanding I pay for all the Diesel for work purposes (average miles)

I was under the impression that any pay cut forced or otherwise had to be agreed on by both parties?

Bandana boy

In my opinion you certainly have enough happening here to go talk to a professional. Google Employment solicitor and go have a chat.
Your values are a little off I make your statutory as ~€8,400 but if he has paid above statutory before you could challenge that.

I think you would need to show more effort to resolve the situation to be able to prove a constructive dismissal but the potential penalty to your employer here is a lot higher , this could cost him up to two years’ salary , while that is unlikely with Only 6 and a bit years’ service if found for you it will certainly be substantially more than €8,400

Bandana boy

In my opinion you certainly have enough happening here to go talk to a professional. Google Employment solicitor and go have a chat.
Your values are a little off I make your statutory as ~€8,400 but if he has paid above statutory before you could challenge that.

I think you would need to show more effort to resolve the situation to be able to prove a constructive dismissal but the potential penalty to your employer here is a lot higher , this could cost him up to two years’ salary , while that is unlikely with Only 6 and a bit years’ service if found for you it will certainly be substantially more than €8,400

The Aussie

Thanks for the reply, I just banged off a load of email there to employment solicitors so will wait and see what comes back.

The figure of €9800 came off the welfare.ie redundancy calculator, so probably a rough guide as I took 3 months off there a few years ago and other short breaks (a week here a week there sort of thing) when work was short.

Stheno

I'm not sure you have a case for either redundancy or constructive dismissal.

Part of your job has changed, and some of your benefits have been reduced is what I'm taking from your posts, but you still have a full time job?

Redundancy is where you job no longer exists.
Constructive dismissal is where you are forced to leave a job due to how you are being treated, I'm not sure if what you've outlined would meet the criteria.
Anyway good luck with it.

Bandana boy

Stheno wrote: »

I'm not sure you have a case for either redundancy or constructive dismissal.

Part of your job has changed, and some of your benefits have been reduced is what I'm taking from your posts, but you still have a full time job?

Redundancy is where you job no longer exists.
Constructive dismissal is where you are forced to leave a job due to how you are being treated, I'm not sure if what you've outlined would meet the criteria.
Anyway good luck with it.

With regards Redundancy the role of foreman is gone it no longer exists you could certainly argue that this is not a reasonable alternative job being offered ,title , level of responsibility , benefits and remuneration are all changing.

CD I would agree is not there yet from what we heard but how this is being handled it is certainly heading that way , I think if our OP makes concerted genuine efforts to resolve the situation and he meets the same behavior it could end there.

Stheno

Bandana boy wrote: »

With regards Redundancy the role of foreman is gone it no longer exists you could certainly argue that this is not a reasonable alternative job being offered ,title , level of responsibility , benefits and remuneration are all changing.

CD I would agree is not there yet from what we heard but how this is being handled it is certainly heading that way , I think if our OP makes concerted genuine efforts to resolve the situation and he meets the same behavior it could end there.

Oh it's certainly not black and white, and hopefully op will get legal advice to help him resolve it.

The Aussie

Just a update, I am meeting a employment solicitor this week about it as they want to have a chat and go through all the emails between my employer and me and see where I stand and best course of action.

Thanks for the replies so far, appreciate it.