Removing a drone from over ones property

Harry Palmr

Was listening to a radio report about rural crime and drones being used to observe the contents of farm yards etc, which got me wondering about a few things such as is the airspace directly above our property ours? If so how far does it extend. Is it legal to remove a drone directly over ones property by whatever means? Is it legal to stop the means to control a drone if say the controller was on the road outside your property, if you asked him/her to stop and they didn't could one call the Garda and if so what is their view on this likely to be? Is there a specific offence with regard to remotely controlling a unmanned flying machine in Irish law?

Any thoughts?

MarkAnthony

The traditional position is to the heavens and depths of hell (I forget the latin). It's a tresspass at the height a drone would fly.

I'm sure there are avaition laws/regs, but that aside it's a simple civil tresspass, with not a huge amount you can do.

Nekarsulm

MarkAnthony wrote: »

The traditional position is to the heavens and depths of hell (I forget the latin). It's a tresspass at the height a drone would fly.

I'm sure there are avaition laws/regs, but that aside it's a simple civil tresspass, with not a huge amount you can do.

Unless of course there are valuable minerals on your land. In which case, the State owns the rights to them.
If the drone is kept up above shotgun range, not much you can do.

Shermanator

Get your own Drone - Drone Wars

Grolschevik

Regulations were passed in December. I'll dig out the link when I get a chance, but google should point them out on the statute book online.

Don't think there's anything specific in them on this issue, though.

MarkAnthony

To clarify the traditional position has been modified somewhat.

Drone mounted shotguns perhaps? Or some sort of anti aircraft gun?

Carawaystick

Falcons?

Larbre34

Get your own drone, rig the Benelli up to it, send it up.

Or just take it out from the ground.

All kidding aside, if for one second I thought a suspicious drone might be interfering with my property or my kids, I would shoot it down regardless of whether I knew the legal position or not.

Man11

MarkAnthony wrote: »

The traditional position is to the heavens and depths of hell (I forget the latin). It's a tresspass at the height a drone would fly.

I'm sure there are avaition laws/regs, but that aside it's a simple civil tresspass, with not a huge amount you can do.

New laws I if it weighs over a kg in had to be registered with the Irish aviation authority. It only costs 5E

emeldc

Use a radio rifle.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2015/10/20/dronedefender_a_nonlethal_way_to_take_down_an_out_of_bounds_drone.html

Gatling

There is legislation covering drone operations but you don't own any airspace if I remember correctly.
Sounds a little like American paronoia look there's a drone shoot it down

danjo-xx

emeldc wrote:

Use a radio rifle.

That's a hedge trimmer

EmptyTree

Gatling wrote: »

Sounds a little like American paronoia look there's a drone shoot it down

???

It's hardly "American paronoia" if it's thought the drone is being used to target a property by criminals.

Gatling

EmptyTree wrote: »

???

It's hardly "American paronoia" if it's thought the drone is being used to target a property by criminals.

Never heard any such reports been honest beens nothing about it from the gardai or other sources

masculinist

EmptyTree wrote: »

???

It's hardly "American paronoia" if it's thought the drone is being used to target a property by criminals.

Furthermore there is also the invasion of privacy aspect. And the real possibility that if the drone fails it can fall on someones head. The heavier the drone and the lighter the child , the worse the damage. If you dropped a KG on someone from the height of a house you could kill them or snap their neck easily.

Del.Monte

As an aside, the whole area of drone operation needs serious attention before a serious accident, or something worse, happens. The farcical attempt at licencing drones beggars belief.

https://www.iaa.ie/docs/default-source/publications/statutory-instruments-%28orders%29/small-unmanned-aircraft-%28drones%29-and-rockets-order-s-i-563-of-2015.pdf?sfvrsn=2

Pawwed Rig

masculinist wrote: »

Furthermore there is also the invasion of privacy aspect. And the real possibility that if the drone fails it can fall on someones head. The heavier the drone and the lighter the child , the worse the damage. If you dropped a KG on someone from the height of a house you could kill them or snap their neck easily.

No more so than a remote control airplane or helicopter.

lifeandtimes

There are rules ensuring you don't invade people's privacy but you had to prove the drone was watching you I. E that it had a camera etc,(which most do)you could call the guards but they show up and the drone is in their home f-all they can do
On the other hand you could try and take it down however it depends where it lands,if it's on your property like a back garden you could have an argument that it was in your property however you could also be done for criminal damage if it wasnt

Tiercel Dave

Get yourself an Eagle!

EmptyTree

Gatling wrote: »

Never heard any such reports been honest beens nothing about it from the gardai or other sources

Morning Ireland had an article on it on rte radio 1 the other morning. I'll see if I can dig it out.

Monokne

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Was listening to a radio report about rural crime and drones being used to observe the contents of farm yards etc, which got me wondering about a few things such as is the airspace directly above our property ours? If so how far does it extend. Is it legal to remove a drone directly over ones property by whatever means? Is it legal to stop the means to control a drone if say the controller was on the road outside your property, if you asked him/her to stop and they didn't could one call the Garda and if so what is their view on this likely to be? Is there a specific offence with regard to remotely controlling a unmanned flying machine in Irish law?

Any thoughts?

Stop growing drugs on your farm, fam.

emeldc

Gatling wrote: »

Never heard any such reports been honest beens nothing about it from the gardai or other sources

On Pat Kenny show yesterday I think. A farmer saying there was a drone with night vision camera flying over his yard at 9.30 at night.. The criminals, in fairness are usually well ahead of the gardai.

Help!!!!

Get your kids out training

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4emOInWh2ec

Help!!!!

Get your kids out training

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4emOInWh2ec

hardCopy

That oughta do it.

Gatling

emeldc wrote: »

On Pat Kenny show yesterday I think. A farmer saying there was a drone with night vision camera flying over his yard at 9.30 at night.. The criminals, in fairness are usually well ahead of the gardai.

Sounds a little far fetched a drone at 930 pm and he could see it had night vision .
Very few if any out of the box drones have night vision even the €2000+ drones don't have night vision.

Chances are a neighbour or someone just happened to be flying a drone near by .
There's a lot of paranoia around drones ,
Wait till government departments start using them .

Grolschevik

Gatling wrote: »

Wait till government departments start using them .

I've heard that the Defence Forces already do, and that the guards are looking into it. The PSNI have been using them since 2013, I believe.

listermint

emeldc wrote: »

On Pat Kenny show yesterday I think. A farmer saying there was a drone with night vision camera flying over his yard at 9.30 at night.. The criminals, in fairness are usually well ahead of the gardai.

That farmer was talking horse****.

Gatling

Grolschevik wrote: »

I've heard that the Defence Forces already do, and that the guards are looking into it. The PSNI have been using them since 2013, I believe.

Yeah they've several and there becoming very popular with police forces across Europe,

I remember last year a TD was calling for them to be deployed with the gardai in rural locations to help with patrols when cars were tied up with call outs .
A lot of people laughed at the idea

Del2005

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Was listening to a radio report about rural crime and drones being used to observe the contents of farm yards etc, which got me wondering about a few things such as is the airspace directly above our property ours? If so how far does it extend. Is it legal to remove a drone directly over ones property by whatever means? Is it legal to stop the means to control a drone if say the controller was on the road outside your property, if you asked him/her to stop and they didn't could one call the Garda and if so what is their view on this likely to be? Is there a specific offence with regard to remotely controlling a unmanned flying machine in Irish law?

Any thoughts?

Just go old fashioned and stick a load of barrage balloons around the yard, you could even have lines connecting them to create am area impossible to fly through. But then the scumbags will think you have something worth stealing so will just go old fashioned and break in.

lifeandtimes

Also just to point out I have a drone and registered etc,I never fly my drone in a public area such as my back garden in a house estate,these things are delicate and you don't want it falling out of sight into someone's back garden etc....The only who would be doing this aee stupid people or people who are actually up to know in which case you'd every right to sort it out .

But like with most issues that's a small minority,the vast majority are respectable users who use them in an open area for fun etc

Nekarsulm

Gatling wrote: »

There's a lot of paranoia around drones ,
Wait till government departments start using them .

Our local Civil Defence had a couple of members attending a Drone operation training course in the Phoenix Park last week. In fairness be a great tool in responsible hands, search & rescue etc.

Cool_CM

If you are partial to fishing, you could try where this guy failed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrzU-MMBGIM

ScumLord

Carawaystick wrote: »

Falcons?

You probably could train the local crow population to attack them on sight. It would mean buying a quadcopter, getting them familiar to it, and then getting them to think they're a source of food.

Crows are incredibly smart, so all you'd need to do is get them to think it's food and they'd come up with all sorts of tactics for getting at the quadcopters. The guy would probably be swarmed by crows as soon as he took the quadcopter out of the bag, and even if they eventually found out quadcopters didn't always have food they might take them down for the craic once the fear is gone.

Stormington

I submitted a paper on this topic for a law review in April of last year. How things have changed...

Short answer: It's a trespass. Privacy might be an action open to you but it depends on the circumstances. You may be able to catch him for flying an unregistered drone (prosecutions available via the IAA) but if the drone has a camera and he has not registered as a data controller, you can pass it onto the Data Protection Commissioner and have their office chase them down for you. Of course you'd have to get your hands on it or find the owner first.

Some legalse follows.

The old maxim of owning all from heaven down to hell doesn't apply anymore due to the Land & Conveyancing Law Reform Act 2009:

Land includes the airspace above the surface of land or above any building or structure on land which is capable of being or was previously occupied by a building or structure and any part of such airspace, whether the division is made horizontally, vertically or in any other way.

It's not great at saying where it begins and ends but with the Drone statutes there is a restriction on flying within 30 metres of a person, vessel, vehicle or structure not under the direct control of the operator. (Section 7 (5) (c))
If the flyer pierces the 30 metre bubble around your house/apartment then you should have a claim for a trespass to property.

I have loads of stuff on this tucked away but it is theoretical until a case comes forward here in Ireland (there's been plenty in the States and the UK though).

Gatling

Stormington wrote: »

I submitted a paper on this topic for a law review in April of last year. How things have changed...

Short answer: It's a trespass. Privacy might be an action open to you but it depends on the circumstances. You may be able to catch him for flying an unregistered drone (prosecutions available via the IAA) .

Only if the drone is over a certain weight that is there's no blanket requirements to register all drones

Stormington

Gatling wrote: »

Only if the drone is over a certain weight that is there's no blanket requirements to register all drones

Indeed. Sorry, I lost a quote in changing it around.

If under 1kg it doesn't need to be registered under S 6 (2) (c) as it doesn't apply:

to drones and small unmanned aircraft of less than 1 kilogram
maximum mass less fuel and constructed of wood, paper or frangible
plastic and containing no substantial parts, when operated below 15m
above the ground or water and in a manner that does not create a
hazard to persons, property or other aircraft

If it has a camera, however, the owner will have to be registered as a data controller.

Mellor

Larbre34 wrote: »

if for one second I thought a suspicious drone might be interfering with my property or my kids,

Out of curiosity, what do you mean by "interfering with your kids"?
obviously it isn't going to pick up a baby and fly off with them yet.But do you mean photos or something else.

EmptyTree wrote: »

It's hardly "American paronoia" if it's thought the drone is being used to target a property by criminals.

Assuming that a nearby drone is being used by criminals to scope out a property is exactly the definition of paronoia tbh.

emeldc wrote: »

On Pat Kenny show yesterday I think. A farmer saying there was a drone with night vision camera flying over his yard at 9.30 at night.. The criminals, in fairness are usually well ahead of the gardai.

Any did this farmer say how he knew the drone had night vision?

Stormington wrote: »

If it has a camera, however, the owner will have to be registered as a data controller.

I find it hard to believe all drones with camera have to be registered. Do you have a link to the legislation. Not saying you are wrong, I've no clue what the law is in ireland atm. I'm just looking at it from the fact that even cheapest drones can have camera these days.

Gatling

Mellor wrote: »

Assuming that a nearby drone is being used by criminals to scope out a property is exactly the definition of paronoia tbh.


Any did this farmer say how he knew the drone had night vision?


I find it hard to believe all drones with camera have to be registered. Do you have a link to the legislation. Not saying you are wrong, I've no clue what the law is in ireland atm. I'm just looking at it from the fact that even cheapest drones can have camera these days.

I refer to the part where the farmer seen a drone at 930 pm that was equipped with night vision.
And the other quoted post about interfering with kids .


Data protection and drones

https://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Guidance-on-the-use-of-Drone-Aircraft/1510.htm

TheChizler

Gatling wrote: »

I refer to the part where the farmer seen a drone at 930 pm that was equipped with night vision.
And the other quoted post about interfering with kids .


Data protection and drones

https://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Guidance-on-the-use-of-Drone-Aircraft/1510.htm

There's a bit of a disconnect there, sure surveillance is subject to data protection, but why is recording video with a drone considered surveillance? You could be producing a video for tv or YouTube or something, why is it surveillance with a drone and not with a handheld camera? The only difference is the mobility and method of control.

emeldc

Gatling wrote: »

Sounds a little far fetched a drone at 930 pm and he could see it had night vision .
Very few if any out of the box drones have night vision even the €2000+ drones don't have night vision.

Chances are a neighbour or someone just happened to be flying a drone near by .
There's a lot of paranoia around drones ,
Wait till government departments start using them .

listermint wrote: »

That farmer was talking horse****.

I think some of you are being incredibly naive if you think criminals are not already using this technology to suss out their victims. Also do you think the criminals care how much the drones cost? Do you think they would actually pay for them? They just rob them ffs. I live in a rural community and know loads of farmers/ rural businesses that have been robbed multiple times in the last two years.
Maybe that farmer was talking horsesh1t, but he certainly wasn't being paronoid.

Mellor

Gatling wrote: »

I refer to the part where the farmer seen a drone at 930 pm that was equipped with night vision.

So the farmer could see the night vision on the drone. I don't believe him tbh.

Data protection and drones

https://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Guidance-on-the-use-of-Drone-Aircraft/1510.htm

From the page you linked, personal could use is exempt;

This exemption, sometimes called the “household exemption”, would generally apply to the handling of the personal data of private persons, as long as this takes place for personal, non-commercial purposes.

The latter part, is in regards to surveillance of a public place. Which is not the same. It's also not a blanket rule. The EU ruling makes no mention of drones btw, it's in regards to CCTV/Video in general. Using your logic, all smartphones, laptops, camera, etc have to be registered data controllers. Which is obviously not the case.

Gatling

emeldc wrote: »

I think some of you are being incredibly naive if you think criminals are not already using this technology to suss out their victims. Also do you think the criminals care how much the drones cost? Do you think they would actually pay for them? They just rob them ffs. I live in a rural community and know loads of farmers/ rural businesses that have been robbed multiple times in the last two years.
Maybe that farmer was talking horsesh1t, but he certainly wasn't being paronoid.

See rural farms and business have been getting robbed since time began and it's not a hight tech business . usually involves driving on to large unsecure properties and driving out again ,
Hence why they have always been soft targets that can be repeatedly hit


Add the fact most drones currently available only have a few minutes flight time 15 mins to 20 mins for high end drones , could be less If flying in the cold, they hardly make great surveillance tools ,

It's technology that most don't understand and irrationally feared for most part ,

Mellor

emeldc wrote: »

I think some of you are being incredibly naive if you think criminals are not already using this technology to suss out their victims. Also do you think the criminals care how much the drones cost? Do you think they would actually pay for them? They just rob them ffs. I live in a rural community and know loads of farmers/ rural businesses that have been robbed multiple times in the last two years.
Maybe that farmer was talking horsesh1t, but he certainly wasn't being paronoid.

I appreciate farms are repeat targets. But most of the stuff that is stolen, doesn't need a drone to find it. A tractor isn't exactly inconspicuous.

That said, I see no hard shooting down a drone that low flying over the centre of a farm where equipment is held. No reason for it to be there.
But farmers getting trigger happy any time a drone comes close the border of a field is a different matter.

Carawaystick

Stormington wrote: »

The old maxim of owning all from heaven down to hell doesn't apply anymore due to the Land & Conveyancing Law Reform Act 2009:

Land includes the airspace above the surface of land or above any building or structure on land which is capable of being or was previously occupied by a building or structure and any part of such airspace, whether the division is made horizontally, vertically or in any other way.

Not to drag this too much off thread, but the what is the limit of capable of being built? Like if a burj Kalifa size building is capable of being built in a field in Tipp does that count? or would the zoning of the land or means of the owner of the land apply?

seamus

Mellor wrote: »

That said, I see no hard shooting down a drone that low flying over the centre of a farm where equipment is held. No reason for it to be there.

Except for the fact that it's criminal damage and assuming they're using a camera or a video, you may have to explain what you were doing standing in your yard discharging a firearm at someone else's property.

There are of course a few mitigating arguments you could make. But if some spotty 16 year old comes running into your farm looking for his drone, you could find yourself in serious sh1t.

If this is a one-off incident, I'd be inclined to ignore it. If it's a repeat incident, you could make a complaint to local Gardai. They probably know who it is that's flying a drone around annoying people.
If someone is using it to harrass you, then there are other less-than-legal ways of disrupting a drone that don't involve getting caught on camera causing damage to it.