At odds with friend..

LegacyUser

I am at odds with my best friend over a situation that has been ongoing for the past four years and I've reached the end of my rope here and need some advice.

I feel quite bad posting about her situation but it's more to help her rather than a rant, I'm at my wits end with what to do and simply not caring is not an option.

I have a best friend, let's call her Kate, for the past four years. Kate and I went to the same college. Kate graduated in a field where it is difficult to get work unless you continue on in further education. Kate also lives in rural Ireland where it is difficult to gain work experience. Kate is in her early 30s and has four months work experience. Kate says she is depressed, which I can relate to as I have suffered in the past with depression myself. I have worked through college (it took me 5-6 years as I had to pay to for it myself and work to support myself throughout). I think Kate is depressed mainly because she is sitting at home the past four years. I feel bad for her situation, but she has no problem going on nights out etc on occasion so I am not sure it is clinical depression to the point where she can't work, just discouragement perhaps?
I got a job in HR/Staffing and its helped me understand how vital it is for her to gain experience at this age. The problem is I feel that she has a chip on her shoulder, she is always commenting on how better off others are that their parents have paid their masters, or they don't live in rural Ireland, or just "get handed jobs". I am in my 30s also and have worked since the age of 15, no gaps in employment, in jobs I did not enjoy but unfortunately my parents do not live in Ireland so this was necessity. I never wanted to her hurt Kate's feelings but everything came to a head this month. I explained to her that she needs some type of experience, whether it's in a shop or anywhere before she will most likely be considered for anything else. She said it is demeaning because she has a degree and has turned down every suggestion I've made saying she doesn't want to do that because she has a degree.
She finally got an internship in Dublin and has been staying with me the past three weeks. It isn't a very difficult internship but she says it is not something she wants to do. She was meant to do it five days, but found out someone else was doing it for three so she has told them she will only do it for three days. She has called out twice of these three days and has only been doing it for three weeks. I explained to her she was meant to do it for five days and she can't be laying around my house during the day as it is unfair on my housemates. Yesterday I got really angry at her for ruining this opportunity as she had been waiting for it for so long. She told me she was depressed, but she went for drinks with a guy she met online last night and this enraged me. I know it is none of my business but I can't let her ruin her life. I fear that she will be unemployable at this stage as I've actually never seen anyone with this little work experience. She didn't come home last night and she has my housekeys, I was up half the night a little worried but also angry that she was out drinking when I'm putting in my own energy trying to help her. I know the best thing is the keep out of it but I really care about her, and she is staying in my house. I told her she could no longer stay there if she did not attend her internship and she quit it today and has gone back to my house to sleep until she gets her train later. My housemates are in doubt annoyed with my over this also. I went off on her this morning and told her she was carrying on like a child and that so many people in this country would have loved the chance to do her internship. She has belittled my own job and told me I got it handed to me, as I've no experience in HR. I am finding it really difficult to be friends with someone like this. It makes me so angry that she won't find work, and uses so many excuses not to do so. Perhaps I should have said something earlier, I don't know. Should I just cut my losses and leave her be or maybe tell one of her family members? I feel guilty sitting idly by but its taking all my energy and I feel really taken advantage of at the same time. Part of me feels like ending the friendship.

Merkin

I'm afraid we can't pursue any type of relationship in the hope that we can fix someone. I appreciate that you are trying to be a good friend by doing everything in your power to help her but she is fundamentally lazy and immature. If you are happy to accept her as she is and basically be accepting of her life choices, regardless of how frustrating it is, then continue being friends. But if you think you can change her then she's a lost cause and if you find it too upsetting then I'd simply phase her out.

via4

I agree with Merkin she is immature and lazy. She is quite out of line belittling you and your hard work. I would not phase her out I would say it all to her straight. Tell her what you feel the good and the bad and that you care about her but she is taking advantage of you. At the end of the day she was given an opportunity and she is not making the most of it she is still complaining. I know a girl like her who refuses to do dead end jobs because she has a degree but sure most of us do we just have to work in any sort of job until you get another work opportunity not point in sitting around moaning get out and do a weeks work. In the long run it looks better on your CV that you were at least trying not sitting around feeling like the world owes you a living. There are too many people like her around expect a top job straight out of college not all people are that lucky. Tell her (gently) that she is out of line and needs to stop being a baby.

Ande1975

OP,

You have every right to feel annoyed and frustrated with your friend as she is taking advantage of you, your friendship and your housemates hospitality.
It sounds like she is someone who needs to find out the realities of life the hard way.
I worked in a department store stocking shelves during college and when the store decided to refurbish, I had a job where I had to stand in front of the location of the refurbishment to assist customers in finding their way through the store and I had just finished my Masters! Never once did I think I was 'too good'. You need to tell your friend that there are essential life skills to be learned in any job - skills such as responsibility, humility, professionalism, communication skills and work ethic, things cannot be learned by doing a degree.
You can be pretty obnoxious when you are younger but no matter how qualified, educated you are, it doesn't spare you from career challenges.
Your friend has a sense of entitlement which will make her a challenging employee for some company. The very fact she decided to only work 3 days because someone else did speaks volumes and as a hiring manager, I wouldn't care how qualified she is, her attitude will keep her out of a job. The internship could have resulted in a perm job. I'd pick the person with a great attitude who was committed to being there 5 days. A challenging employee is SO much hard work and results in poor morale.

I know I am preaching to the converted but perhaps if you know someone senior in HR or recruitment who can have an honest conversation with her, I'd just distance myself from her until she gets a dose of reality. It sounds like someone who has to find out the hard way.

Either way, you are a terrific friend and she is lucky to have you.

LegacyUser

Thank you for your replies. It does assuage some of the guilt I was feeling.

via4 wrote: »

. Tell her (gently) that she is out of line and needs to stop being a baby.

Via I bit the bullet and told her this last week, unfortunately not gently, as I had *gently* tried explaining the previous four years. She told me my job was easy and I had no relevant experience I got lucky, and insinuated I didn't deserve it. I was really harsh as I thought it was the only way I'd finally get through to her. I told her I pay 108 p/m for the universal social charge, which is meant to provide those who cannnot get work or are unable with assistance, not "jobseekers" looking for their dream jobs. A jobseeker is someone looking for ANY job, she's narrowed it down to jobs she's no chance of getting and rarely applies. 188 in disposable income (0 bills if you live with parents!) is A LOT of disposable income, she often buys thing I cannot afford. I don't know how she's still on this scheme but I know if she was cut off this issue would probably be gone. She said how dare I compare her with the uneducated and that it was the lowest thing anyone had said to her...I felt really bad but it was a last stitch effort.

I completely went off on her yesterday, telling her she was immature and she had blown it and was carrying on like a child. She said she wasn't going in to her internship so I told her she may as well kiss it goodbye at this stage, no chance they'd have her back after her dictating which days she goes in and calling out AGAIN at the last minute. She said her situation of sleeping on my couch was a disaster and she only slept at her online date's house because her back was in bits from sleeping on my couch, and that too was why she couldn't go into her internship. She said it "didn't matter because it wasn't work-she wasn't being paid"..."get off her ******** case" and I "was depressing [her] and bringing her down" so she "couldn't stick it anymore".
I was called dramatic and that I must have a problem..I just give up. Her stuff is still at my house but she's gone home. We're all meant to go on a night out with mutual friends Saturday and I don't want her staying in mine. I don't even want to see her for a good while. I'm really angry and hurt. I know I cannot get through to her.

I'm really grateful for all of your advice and Merkin you're essentially right, I can't change this and I'm going to have to disassociate myself because its important to be surrounded with positive and ambitious people. It's affecting me in a negative way. I was thinking of contacting one of her family members and letting them know the situation....or should I just stay out of it now in case that backfires on me also?? What should I do if she comes on the nigh out, it's hard to ignore! I want her stuff out of my house also but don't want to be mean and ask her to come back and get it.

Have I been too harsh here?

LegacyUser

Op I think you are way too invested in trying to sort out her life for her and I don't mean to be harsh but your post reminds me of my mother rather than that of a friend. I'm shocked you gave out to her about going out on a date and not coming home, I mean if she's in her 30s she's a big girl and can do what ever she wants. In relation to her career you can't sort it out for her.
Some people are not interested in getting a job or making their life better but yet are happy to moan and give out about what others have. The fact your friend went from 5 to 3 days speaks volumes about her attitude towards work and improving her career opportunities. I'm similar to yourself working since I was 17 in all types of jobs and all through college, and I'm now at the point where I would love to just give up work and take up gardening!

I've a sibling similar to your friend and to be honest you're wasting your time trying to help them. The only thing you can do is be there for her as a friend but in terms of sorting out her life that's up to her. If the friendship is wearing you down because you are tired of her attitude then maybe its time to cut your losses.

LegacyUser

tabs101 wrote: »

Op I think you are way too invested in trying to sort out her life for her and I don't mean to be harsh but your post reminds me of my mother rather than that of a friend. I'm shocked you gave out to her about going out on a date and not coming home, I mean if she's in her 30s she's a big girl and can do what ever she wants. In relation to her career you can't sort it out for her.
Some people are not interested in getting a job or making their life better but yet are happy to moan and give out about what others have. The fact your friend went from 5 to 3 days speaks volumes about her attitude towards work and improving her career opportunities. I'm similar to yourself working since I was 17 in all types of jobs and all through college, and I'm now at the point where I would love to just give up work and take up gardening!

I've a sibling similar to your friend and to be honest you're wasting your time trying to help them. The only thing you can do is be there for her as a friend but in terms of sorting out her life that's up to her. If the friendship is wearing you down because you are tired of her attitude then maybe its time to cut your losses.

Tabs thanks for that. I actually felt like someone's mother and I felt like I was going crazy. I didn't give out to her for going out with a guy, I gave out to her for saying she was too depressed to get out of bed and then questioned if thats case, why are you going out with a guy? I told her it's her life and gave her my keys, told her if that's what makes you happy go for it. I gave out to her for not coming home and keeping my keys that I needed for work the next day. I didn't want to act like her mother so to speak it was just the fact that she was in my house lying around on the days she didn't show up and I had to put my foot down and tell her she couldn't do this, I have two housemates. You're all right I wasted my time trying to help her and part of the reason I wrote the initial post was because I felt interfering, like a mother. Yet at the same time I had to put my foot down and tell her to grow up as she was staying in my (very small) house for three weeks.

Thanks again

LegacyUser

lostfriend wrote: »

Tabs thanks for that. I actually felt like someone's mother and I felt like I was going crazy. I didn't give out to her for going out with a guy, I gave out to her for saying she was too depressed to get out of bed and then questioned if thats case, why are you going out with a guy? I told her it's her life and gave her my keys, told her if that's what makes you happy go for it. I gave out to her for not coming home and keeping my keys that I needed for work the next day. I didn't want to act like her mother so to speak it was just the fact that she was in my house lying around on the days she didn't show up and I had to put my foot down and tell her she couldn't do this, I have two housemates. You're all right I wasted my time trying to help her and part of the reason I wrote the initial post was because I felt interfering, like a mother. Yet at the same time I had to put my foot down and tell her to grow up as she was staying in my (very small) house for three weeks.

Thanks again

I know I feel your pain its very frustrating I've been there myself and to be honest it drains your brain. I know somebody who put in a good word for a friend similar to yours for a job and got burned badly. The person started to take the mick coming in late, ringing in sick and then one day never showed up.
You both seem to be on different wave lengths in terms of what you want from life and if she's bringing you down emotionally it might be best to let the friendship fizzle. However if you have mutual friends in common where you are going to be out socialising together in a group you might need to apologise to her so that things are not awkward. Best of luck.

thisistough

I honestly think you need to walk away from this for a while. You've been a good friend and tried to help, even letting her sleep on your couch and then she has the nerve to complain it's uncomfortable?! I don't care how educated someone is, if you are being given a payment by the state you should take the first available job cleaning toilets until you get your dream job! If everyone in the country decided to wait around for their dream job we'd have all of 5 people employed throughout the country.

I would take my keys back and tell her that your couch may be available to her when she grows up and started taking her life seriously. If she apologised and started working hard I would then try to give the friendship a go but I would have no interest in listening to people complaining that I have a job while they're being kept by the taxes I pay!

Ursus Horribilis

You did your best but some people just can't be helped. My guess is that she has parents at home who've spoiled her and have made life far too easy for her. By the looks of things they're not even asking for any of her job seekers allowance to put towards her upkeep. The only way she might change her ways is if she hits rock bottom and had no alternative but to take a job that's currently beneath her. Even then, I'd not hold out much hope. Her attitude stinks and she has no work ethic. Neither of those will help her find a job.

LegacyUser

I understand how you feel. The truth is you have helped Kate out a lot. She got an internship in Dublin and you have let her live with you. Meanwhile she decided that she only wants to work 3 days instead of 5 days a week.
I know she has a degree but so do a lot of other people out there also. You right in telling her she needs to get work experience as it will help her get a job and open up her world.

The reality is that in her early 30's she needs to realise that without work experince she won't get work. She can sit a home feeling sorry for herself and complaining that everyone else has it easy. Yes some people are lucky and get work due to family and freinds knowing people but unless you do your job well you won't be kept on past a probation period.

At this stage I would tell her she is on her last chance with you. She has to do the internship for 5 days a week. I would also tell her that going out all night with your keys is not fair. You don't know where she is, who she is with and meanwhile you awake half the night worrying about her. Tell her if she is out all night she can't do her best in the internship. I would also ask her where does she see herself in a years time?
I would remind her that if she wants a job after this intership she needs to make a good impression there as they may offer her work and if not she needs a good reference from them. I would also say to her at this stage unless she starts making an effort in regards to the intership and stops complaining about her lack of work to date she won't be staying with you for much longer.

Being honest here you sound like a great friend to have. If she refuses to take on board what you say to her I would tell her to leave your house. The truth is we can all go though a bad patch or need a friend to help us out. When you have a bad patch you can sit at home and feel sorry for yourself or you can do your best to make things better for yourself.

zoobizoo

Sounds like she is unhappy with a lot of things, most likely with herself.

That unhappiness comes out in negativity and anger towards everything.

Sounds like she needs to speak to a professional to see where the unhappiness is coming from and how best she can overcome it and to give her a better sense of reality.

If she is depressed, then is she seeing a therapist?

You can bandy about terms like immature and spoilt but (and not making any excuses for her actions) she is viewing the world through a very narrow negative lens and everything she does will be based on that view until she is helped to change it.

You are doing a lot for her... are her family doing anything to help?

K_P

Sounds like you've been a really good friend and if you're at all guilty of becoming too involved in her life and acting like her mammy then it's probably a natural result of trying to help someone who acts like an entitled child.

You haven't been too harsh and there's probably no changing her. If she's living at home without even trying for a job at this point in her life then her strange view of the world is probably being backed up by her family. If she and her family think she's far too good for a basic office job or working in a shop because of her degree then they'll eventually be in for a shock. Half the country has a degree and it means precisely nothing without further study, decent work experience and the right attitude. Your friend is lacking in all three and is pretty entrenched in her view that the world owes her her dream job. For her to wake up to reality at all it would probably take her parents changing their attitude - charging her rent, giving her a deadline to move out of home, anything. You've done your best to support her and give her the wake up call she sorely needs but to no avail. Now you need to bow out.

I agree it's probably awkward if you have a big shared group of friends. If you're due to see her with them all this weekend I'd suggest sending her a text beforehand saying you're happy to let bygones be bygones and enjoy your night out. Not sure she'll accept that as such but you'll have at least attempted to clear the air. I know advice on Boards tends towards talking to people in person rather than texting but I think that could end up in another big argument. Whatever you do, don't apologise, you've nothing in the world to apologise for. In fact she's the one who owes you an apology. I'm only suggesting you send that text and actually go on the night out in case she'd be the type to try and poison your other friends against you. Maybe they know well what she's like and wouldn't believe her anyway. But I just think this has the potential to become a big issue amongst a big circle of friends and if you can avoid that with a text and forcing yourself to see her when you don't feel like it then maybe it's worth it.

via4

No I dont think you were being too harsh at all at the end of the day its clear you care about this friend and all you were doing was trying to help. If it is draining you just distance yourself for a bit, maybe head out with a diff group of friends on sat. She has said some hurtful things to you and it will take her a while to see the light that she thinks everyone got things handed to them but she is not willing to make the sacrifices to get what she thinks she deserves. You have clearly worked very hard and dont let her try and belittle you she just is a lazy sod and I also think that if she had the keys to your place and was meant to be staying there but wanted to sleep in a bed with a random guy she should have sent you a text to ease your worry it takes literally two seconds to send a text yes she is entitled to do what she likes but if I was staying at a friends and had their keys I would check in and let them know that I was safe at least instead of leaving them in the drk.

LegacyUser

People like your friend infuriate me. She has no proof or evidence whatsoever that "everyone else has jobs handed to them". It's just her own heightened sense of entitlement makes her feel that she should have a job handed to her, so she assumes everyone else has that. She has never worked, at this stage it's looking like she will never work. Her parents are enabling her and that is why she won't take that step and move out of home. And the older she gets the more daunting a prospect that is.

You're fighting a losing battle, so just leave it now. She will always have justification for everything. She will always have her skewed perception of situations. You can be damn sure she is already telling everyone who asks, and even those who don't, that it is your fault she had to leave the internship and move home. She has never yet taken any personal responsibility for her life. She has never gone looking for jobs, preferring to wait for someone to come looking for her! She hasn't taken the opportunities handed to her or hasn't taken them seriously. Most people in your group will know what she's like. So for your own sake now just don't go there anymore. If you are due to see her soon just send a clear the air text. Don't apologise for anything, as that will exaggerate her feeling of entitlement and being hard-done-by. Maybe don't even send a clear the air text. Just meet up with her in the gang, say hi, and sit beside someone else!

You can't change her, especially when you would have to be changing her entire mindset and, it seems, that of her family! She is early 30s now. Unless she makes some very big changes she will be in exactly the same position in her early 40s. Do you want you spend the next 10 years just repeating the sane conversations? You're going to have to step back at some stage. Better now than next year or 5 years time when you're actually worn out and making yourself sick with worry over her.

She's a big girl. She'll manage. Whatever she does!

LegacyUser

OP here. I just wanted to thank everyone for their replies, they were so so helpful.
I followed the majority of advice and backed off. The only thing was her things are still at my house so I left it up to her to make contact because I was still pretty pissed.
She eventually text me to ask to get it and that she was pretty sure shed gotten a room and that her internship was changed to Wednesday to Friday, which was more convenient for her. This was Wednesday and she was still down the country so I don't know what she was on about. Then yesterday she text me to tell me she had a load of interviews for paid jobs and she was staying in a hotel and going home at the weekends. Im kinda pisssed about this because she owes me money and I haven't wanted to ask her for it as I know she'll need to fork out a deposit for a room. She then went on about how she had crippling anxiety and bad sleep and this was the reason for her behaviour. I just told Her flat out the whole country is anxious and depressed but they have to work. She just said it's my own fault I should have had a place of my own before I started the internship..so frustrating-completely bypassing the fact that the reason our friendship was affected was bc of her work ethic and as some of you made me realise, laziness.
I don't know what I'll do now, I am not sure I can be friends with her until she sorts out this aspect of her life. Her irrational view on it is way too frustrating.
So thanks again for all the advice, it's been so helpful

LegacyUser

Stop! You're still trying to reason with her. You can't reason with an unreasonable person. Whenever she goes on about work, job, hotels etc just say "Oh right". It's probably all fantasy. You are only annoying yourself by trying to talk to her about anything, so don't try. She still has her perception of things. Your perception of her and her perception of herself are two completely different things. You'll never convince her otherwise, and she's never going to be able to convince you either.

Continue being her friend on a different level now. Just do not get involved in her work life... And also take whatever she says with a pinch of salt. I'd guess it's not only her work life that she has built into a fantasy.

Ursus Horribilis

Once she collects her things (if she hasn't got them already), I don't think you're going to be hearing from her much. I'm not sure what grounds there are for a friendship now anyway. Your values and her values are about as far apart as it gets. She's annoying the hell out of you and I'm sure she's not too fond of you either. You're no longer friends but have assumed a sort of chiding parent/stroppy teenager dynamic. If she has a bad attitude and is lazy, nothing you can do or say can cure that. If she's suffering from depression or something, then she needs to get help. It's not your job to fix her. I wonder what her parent's take on this is. I know if I was still at home at her age, twiddling my thumbs and not working, my parents would've had something to say about it.

As for what to do, don't initiate contact with her. If she makes contact, keep things general and don't engage in conversations about where her career isn't going. I think the friendship's going to fizzle out naturally though.

SeaBreezes

Fascinated reading the posts.

Your friend is gas, she has her life set up exactly as she wants it and is not going to allow anything to interfere with that.
She deliberately sabotaged the internship so she woudnt be offered a job.
Shes 30, shes not stupid and though shes paying lip service to the 'I want a job' she doesnt really.

Your place is handy for the social life, 188 euro a week to be spent socially?
Most working people cant afford that, not by the time the bills are paid.
Shes prob going through the motions to keep her parents happy.

Why does it upset you so much tho? Its her life, if she chooses this lifestyle, then so be it.
And you know the older I get (and Ive worked since I was 14 and still am complete with mortgage and debt) Im slightly jealous :-).
If she doesnt have to get on the treadmill, and she has a good standard of life, why should she change? I wouldnt :-)

SeaBreezes

Fascinated reading the posts.

Your friend is gas, she has her life set up exactly as she wants it and is not going to allow anything to interfere with that.
She deliberately sabotaged the internship so she woudnt be offered a job.
Shes 30, shes not stupid and though shes paying lip service to the 'I want a job' she doesnt really.

Your place is handy for the social life, 188 euro a week to be spent socially?
Most working people cant afford that, not by the time the bills are paid.
Shes prob going through the motions to keep her parents happy.

Why does it upset you so much tho? Its her life, if she chooses this lifestyle, then so be it.
And you know the older I get (and Ive worked since I was 14 and still am complete with mortgage and debt) Im slightly jealous :-).
If she doesnt have to get on the treadmill, and she has a good standard of life, why should she change? I wouldnt :-)

Lostfriend

Lostfriend wrote: »

yesterday she text me to tell me she had a load of interviews for paid jobs and she was staying in a hotel and going home at the weekends. Im kinda pisssed about this because she owes me money and I haven't wanted to ask her for it as I know she'll need to fork out a deposit for a room

And unless it's a significant amount, I'd kiss that money goodbye.

Actually, even if it is a significant amount, I wouldn't hold out much hope of ever getting it back. It's just one of many things you need to let go of in relation to this friend if you want to retain your sanity.