Ardrahan / Gort / Kinvara Co. Galway efibre rollout dates on magic map

irishgrover

Hi Eir Team,


I'm aware that your eir fibre roll out map does not in any way have to correspond to actual reality, as you have mentioned before you have disclaimers on it so it does not need to reflect the truth :-)
Anyway, could you do me a favour and check the status of the above 3 exchanges re fibre rollout.

Your map has stated over the last year the following roll out dates

In Q1 of 2015 it listed go live as Q2 2015

In Q2 and Q3 of 2015 it listed go live as Q4 of 2015

In early Q4 of 2015 is listed go live as "Within a Year"

In mid Q4 it listed go live as "Within 6 weeks" 


( At this point I got naively excited and contacted customer support (on line chat) to see if this was true. The told me to contact OpenEir to get an exact date and gave me their website. They did not tell me that OpenEir do not deal with the public, nice bit of deflection... However through persistence I did finally get to talk to someone from openeir who very kindly let me know that there was no way in hell that these exchanges were going to be live within 6 weeks, had no idea why the may would say that and that he would contact Eir to update their map, as it may be late sprint / summer before anything happens.

In Late Q4 it went back listed go live of  "Within a year"

In early Q1 2016 it went to a listed go live of "Within 6 weeks", and it has been that way for a couple of weeks...

So my request / question is "Could you please check if the information on your map is accurate"  Will these exchanges really be enabled and ready within 6 weeks?

thanks in advance
grover

eir: Alan

irishgrover wrote: »

Hi Eir Team,


I'm aware that your eir fibre roll out map does not in any way have to correspond to actual reality, as you have mentioned before you have disclaimers on it so it does not need to reflect the truth :-)
Anyway, could you do me a favour and check the status of the above 3 exchanges re fibre rollout.

Your map has stated over the last year the following roll out dates

In Q1 of 2015 it listed go live as Q2 2015

In Q2 and Q3 of 2015 it listed go live as Q4 of 2015

In early Q4 of 2015 is listed go live as "Within a Year"

In mid Q4 it listed go live as "Within 6 weeks" 


( At this point I got naively excited and contacted customer support (on line chat) to see if this was true. The told me to contact OpenEir to get an exact date and gave me their website. They did not tell me that OpenEir do not deal with the public, nice bit of deflection... However through persistence I did finally get to talk to someone from openeir who very kindly let me know that there was no way in hell that these exchanges were going to be live within 6 weeks, had no idea why the may would say that and that he would contact Eir to update their map, as it may be late sprint / summer before anything happens.

In Late Q4 it went back listed go live of  "Within a year"

In early Q1 2016 it went to a listed go live of "Within 6 weeks", and it has been that way for a couple of weeks...

So my request / question is "Could you please check if the information on your map is accurate"  Will these exchanges really be enabled and ready within 6 weeks?

thanks in advance
grover

Hi irishgrover

The open eir map ( http://fibrerollout.ie/where-and-when/_  )is designed for wholesale level only it does not intend to suggest that these are the dates or time-frame of when you can order efibre - the map on eir.ie is indicative and subject to change.

Ultimately the underlying point here is that eir cannot guarantee you efibre and cannot guarantee a date of launch of efibre in an area until it in fact goes live - I understand your frustration from your above message and previous messages but we cannot offer you guaranteed dates.

At this present moment in time the best time-frames we can offer in relation to the following areas is

Ardrahan - within next 6 weeks (although subject to change/delays and not including a guarantee).
Gort - within next 6 weeks (although subject to change/delays and not including a guarantee).
Kinvara - within next 6 weeks (although subject to change/delays and not including a guarantee).

Thanks
Al

irishgrover

eir: Alan wrote: »

irishgrover wrote: »

Hi Eir Team,


I'm aware that your eir fibre roll out map does not in any way have to correspond to actual reality, as you have mentioned before you have disclaimers on it so it does not need to reflect the truth :-)
Anyway, could you do me a favour and check the status of the above 3 exchanges re fibre rollout.

Your map has stated over the last year the following roll out dates

In Q1 of 2015 it listed go live as Q2 2015

In Q2 and Q3 of 2015 it listed go live as Q4 of 2015

In early Q4 of 2015 is listed go live as "Within a Year"

In mid Q4 it listed go live as "Within 6 weeks" 


( At this point I got naively excited and contacted customer support (on line chat) to see if this was true. The told me to contact OpenEir to get an exact date and gave me their website. They did not tell me that OpenEir do not deal with the public, nice bit of deflection... However through persistence I did finally get to talk to someone from openeir who very kindly let me know that there was no way in hell that these exchanges were going to be live within 6 weeks, had no idea why the may would say that and that he would contact Eir to update their map, as it may be late sprint / summer before anything happens.

In Late Q4 it went back listed go live of  "Within a year"

In early Q1 2016 it went to a listed go live of "Within 6 weeks", and it has been that way for a couple of weeks...

So my request / question is "Could you please check if the information on your map is accurate"  Will these exchanges really be enabled and ready within 6 weeks?

thanks in advance
grover

Hi irishgrover

The open eir map ( http://fibrerollout.ie/where-and-when/_  )is designed for wholesale level only it does not intend to suggest that these are the dates or time-frame of when you can order efibre - the map on eir.ie is indicative and subject to change.

Ultimately the underlying point here is that eir cannot guarantee you efibre and cannot guarantee a date of launch of efibre in an area until it in fact goes live - I understand your frustration from your above message and previous messages but we cannot offer you guaranteed dates.

At this present moment in time the best time-frames we can offer in relation to the following areas is

Ardrahan - within next 6 weeks (although subject to change/delays and not including a guarantee).
Gort - within next 6 weeks (although subject to change/delays and not including a guarantee).
Kinvara - within next 6 weeks (although subject to change/delays and not including a guarantee).

Thanks
Al

Hi Al,
this is great news.
Your caveat is understood.
However the main difference is that it would appear that you are suggesting that work is actually really happening and there is a genuine end line in sight. Up to this point, all information indicated that the dates on the map were to all intents and purposes basically made up and bore no relationship to reality. And when clarity was sought on the status either through using this forum, or with Eir directly, or with OpenEir directly, a response inevitably came back confirming that there was no chance that it would be complete in 6 months, never mind 6 weeks and the map was updated accordingly.
So this is a great news day (assuming that you have actually done more than just look at the map dates and read them back to me)

thanks
irishgrover

eir: Alan

irishgrover wrote: »

eir: Alan wrote: »

irishgrover wrote: »

Hi Eir Team,


I'm aware that your eir fibre roll out map does not in any way have to correspond to actual reality, as you have mentioned before you have disclaimers on it so it does not need to reflect the truth :-)
Anyway, could you do me a favour and check the status of the above 3 exchanges re fibre rollout.

Your map has stated over the last year the following roll out dates

In Q1 of 2015 it listed go live as Q2 2015

In Q2 and Q3 of 2015 it listed go live as Q4 of 2015

In early Q4 of 2015 is listed go live as "Within a Year"

In mid Q4 it listed go live as "Within 6 weeks" 


( At this point I got naively excited and contacted customer support (on line chat) to see if this was true. The told me to contact OpenEir to get an exact date and gave me their website. They did not tell me that OpenEir do not deal with the public, nice bit of deflection... However through persistence I did finally get to talk to someone from openeir who very kindly let me know that there was no way in hell that these exchanges were going to be live within 6 weeks, had no idea why the may would say that and that he would contact Eir to update their map, as it may be late sprint / summer before anything happens.

In Late Q4 it went back listed go live of  "Within a year"

In early Q1 2016 it went to a listed go live of "Within 6 weeks", and it has been that way for a couple of weeks...

So my request / question is "Could you please check if the information on your map is accurate"  Will these exchanges really be enabled and ready within 6 weeks?

thanks in advance
grover

Hi irishgrover

The open eir map ( http://fibrerollout.ie/where-and-when/_  )is designed for wholesale level only it does not intend to suggest that these are the dates or time-frame of when you can order efibre - the map on eir.ie is indicative and subject to change.

Ultimately the underlying point here is that eir cannot guarantee you efibre and cannot guarantee a date of launch of efibre in an area until it in fact goes live - I understand your frustration from your above message and previous messages but we cannot offer you guaranteed dates.

At this present moment in time the best time-frames we can offer in relation to the following areas is

Ardrahan - within next 6 weeks (although subject to change/delays and not including a guarantee).
Gort - within next 6 weeks (although subject to change/delays and not including a guarantee).
Kinvara - within next 6 weeks (although subject to change/delays and not including a guarantee).

Thanks
Al

Hi Al,
this is great news.
Your caveat is understood.
However the main difference is that it would appear that you are suggesting that work is actually really happening and there is a genuine end line in sight. Up to this point, all information indicated that the dates on the map were to all intents and purposes basically made up and bore no relationship to reality. And when clarity was sought on the status either through using this forum, or with Eir directly, or with OpenEir directly, a response inevitably came back confirming that there was no chance that it would be complete in 6 months, never mind 6 weeks and the map was updated accordingly.
So this is a great news day (assuming that you have actually done more than just look at the map dates and read them back to me)

thanks
irishgrover

No problem irishgrover

I'm glad you are happy with the information however I myself would hold at least some reservations based on the previous delays. Hopefully all goes to plan and six weeks is the launch date.

Cheers
Al

irishgrover

eir: Alan wrote: »

No problem irishgrover

I'm glad you are happy with the information however I myself would hold at least some reservations based on the previous delays. Hopefully all goes to plan and six weeks is the launch date.

Cheers
Al

Hi Alan,
I note that in the last few hours the estimated date has gone from within 6 weeks to within 6 months.
Can you check and see what is going on and give me an update please. What has changed in the last few days to push out the date of something supposedly so close to completion by a factor of 400%?

eir: Alan

irishgrover wrote: »

eir: Alan wrote: »

No problem irishgrover

I'm glad you are happy with the information however I myself would hold at least some reservations based on the previous delays. Hopefully all goes to plan and six weeks is the launch date.

Cheers
Al

Hi Alan,
I note that in the last few hours the estimated date has gone from within 6 weeks to within 6 months.
Can you check and see what is going on and give me an update please. What has changed in the last few days to push out the date of something supposedly so close to completion by a factor of 400%?

Hi irishgrover

I will certainly look in to this for you. Unfortunately eir do not explain why delays occur to the plans but I'll gather as much info as I can,

Al

irishgrover

eir: Alan wrote: »

irishgrover wrote: »

eir: Alan wrote: »

No problem irishgrover

I'm glad you are happy with the information however I myself would hold at least some reservations based on the previous delays. Hopefully all goes to plan and six weeks is the launch date.

Cheers
Al

Hi Alan,
I note that in the last few hours the estimated date has gone from within 6 weeks to within 6 months.
Can you check and see what is going on and give me an update please. What has changed in the last few days to push out the date of something supposedly so close to completion by a factor of 400%?

Hi irishgrover

I will certainly look in to this for you. Unfortunately eir do not explain why delays occur to the plans but I'll gather as much info as I can,

Al

Hi Al,
any update?
thanks

eir: Alan

irishgrover wrote: »

eir: Alan wrote: »

irishgrover wrote: »

eir: Alan wrote: »

No problem irishgrover

I'm glad you are happy with the information however I myself would hold at least some reservations based on the previous delays. Hopefully all goes to plan and six weeks is the launch date.

Cheers
Al

Hi Alan,
I note that in the last few hours the estimated date has gone from within 6 weeks to within 6 months.
Can you check and see what is going on and give me an update please. What has changed in the last few days to push out the date of something supposedly so close to completion by a factor of 400%?

Hi irishgrover

I will certainly look in to this for you. Unfortunately eir do not explain why delays occur to the plans but I'll gather as much info as I can,

Al

Hi Al,
any update?
thanks

Hi irishgrover

I'm sorry, I did send a request for more information however the response I received does not elaborate further than requirement for works on integration of existing network. Again, eir do not specify reasons for delays and I am very sorry the news is not more helpful.

Thanks
Al

irishgrover

fair enough Alan, you tried.
However I can't understand how you can continue to publish and refer to this map, when factually, the majority of the information on it has been incorrect for the last two years.
You use it in your marketing, it very clearly makes false claims about goods/services availability.
The information on this map is not and never has been honest and truthful and this is not aligned with your legal obligations

eir: Alan

irishgrover wrote: »

fair enough Alan, you tried.
However I can't understand how you can continue to publish and refer to this map, when factually, the majority of the information on it has been incorrect for the last two years.
You use it in your marketing, it very clearly makes false claims about goods/services availability.
The information on this map is not and never has been honest and truthful and this is not aligned with your legal obligations

I'm sorry irishgrover

While I can completely understand your views on the map I can assure you there are no breached to legal or trading standards. If you have issue with the legality of eirs advertising or site content you are welcome to pick this with the relevant governing bodie but I just want to make specific reference to the message located above the map advising "This map is an illustrative guide only and not a guarantee of availability. For precise results, use our eir Fibre availability checker"

Again, I genuinely do understand your position on this and I'm sorry I can't offer better news irishgrover

Thanks
Al

irishgrover

eir: Alan wrote: »

I'm sorry irishgrover

While I can completely understand your views on the map I can assure you there are no breached to legal or trading standards. If you have issue with the legality of eirs advertising or site content you are welcome to pick this with the relevant governing bodie but I just want to make specific reference to the message located above the map advising "This map is an illustrative guide only and not a guarantee of availability. For precise results, use our eir Fibre availability checker"

Again, I genuinely do understand your position on this and I'm sorry I can't offer better news irishgrover

Thanks
Al

No worries Al, you can only do what you can,

a common misconception of organizations that are not compliant with the law, is that they assume that the addition of a disclaimer absolves them from their obligations.
In reality it is a lot more subtle. Regardless I think you are missing the point a little bit. Lets park the disclaimer for a moment, and I'll come back to it at the end

why does the map exist?
The purpose of this map is to advertise the rollout of efibre and it's associated additional services on a national level. The particular unit of measure you have chosen to use is by exchange. For over 2 years you have been advertising that specific exchanges will be enabled within specific time frames, thus affording specific services to current or potential customers.
The reality is that "the majority of time, since you published this map, the majority of information on it, has be false".
Let me explain this statement a little better....if at any point in the last number of years a person viewed this information on this map the majority of if would have been factually incorrect and false. The majority of exchanges have not been upgraded when you have stated they would be upgraded on the map.

Now this bit is important
You repeatedly update the map to push missed dates out to new dates, and these new dates are, for the majority of exchanges also not met, and you push out again and repeat, this establishes a pattern of untruthfulness.

You stated in a previous communication that you will not share this information (ie total history of published and missed dates for each exchange), but thankfully there are plenty archive sources to get this information independently.

False Advertising

However you and other Eir agents constantly refer to this map in order to gain and retain existing and new customers. It is therefor used as part of your advertising strategy, specifically in relation to new services. (for example a phone sales rep might say "join Eir, we are upgrading your exchange in 6 weeks, your BB speeds will increase dramatically"

Now obviously there are many factors at work, and delays happen that are within and outside of our control, and the law takes this into account. So advertising does not actually need to be always factually correct, however it does need to be honest and truthful. This is where you fall down. You have been managing the rollout for the last number of years, you have created and managed the map as a means of advertising. As a consequence you know that the map has always been factually incorrect, you continue to update it with additional false information and you continue to use it for false advertising purposes. Because of this pattern, your use of this map as an advert does not stand the most basic test of honest or truthful....
Feel free to ask your legal team to review and comment :-)

Disclaimer
Now in relation to you disclaimer: It is obvious from the language used in the disclaimer, that it is designed to inform people that they may reside within the boundary of an enabled exchange and yet may not (for a variety of reasons) be able to avail of the advertised service. This is a totally legitimate disclaimer and is completely appropriate.

However I cannot imagine a situation were any informed authority or commissioner or Judge would confuse the meaning of this disclaimer to infer something like
"The information on the map is not accurate is usually false and cannot be relied on. In fact during the history of this maps existence it is an established fact that most of the information has, for most of the time been incorrect. This map is for illustrative purposes only and does not in anyway relate to reality and no actual or planned service can be inferred to exist either now, or at any point in the future."


Complaint?
Now, to be honest I could not be arsed making a complaint to anybody about this, life is too short, and in the end what would it prove...at best it would prove that Eir is incompetent, and with respect proving that would be a waste of whatever resources were necessary to do so. If you got fined it would be inconsequential fiscally, and your pattern would not change.

But please don't insult my intelligence by wrongly stating that an unrelated disclaimer allows you to knowingly falsify information for commercial gain.

Actually, I'll make you a deal, you go talk to your legal team and review this message, and then come back again make the same claim, and then I'll accept the challenge of proving you wrong.

All the best
IrishGrover

eir: Alan

Hi irishgrover



I understand your feelings and your own interpenetration of the map is interesting however I'll be unable to debate the morality (be it legal or social) or the map or eirs content on their site. I can assure you that there is absolutely intent to falsify information for commercial gain. Not only is there a disclaimer but there's a line checker which actually checks your line and specific address and furthermore eFibre can't be ordered unless it's actually available to your line/specific address.


Again, should you feel this is breach of any trading or advertising standards please contact the relevant governing bodies.


Al

irishgrover

eir: Alan wrote: »

Hi irishgrover



I understand your feelings and your own interpenetration of the map is interesting however I'll be unable to debate the morality (be it legal or social) or the map or eirs content on their site. I can assure you that there is absolutely intent to falsify information for commercial gain. Not only is there a disclaimer but there's a line checker which actually checks your line and specific address and furthermore eFibre can't be ordered unless it's actually available to your line/specific address.


Again, should you feel this is breach of any trading or advertising standards please contact the relevant governing bodies.


Al

btw, on a lighter note: I'm absolutely loving the truthful nature of your response, be it purposeful or Freudian :-) 

galljga1

eir: Alan wrote: »

Hi irishgrover



I understand your feelings and your own interpenetration of the map is interesting however I'll be unable to debate the morality (be it legal or social) or the map or eirs content on their site. I can assure you that there is absolutely intent to falsify information for commercial gain. Not only is there a disclaimer but there's a line checker which actually checks your line and specific address and furthermore eFibre can't be ordered unless it's actually available to your line/specific address.


Again, should you feel this is breach of any trading or advertising standards please contact the relevant governing bodies.


Al

Well that is just poor horse. I cannot remember the date but I for one, rejoined Eircom after being assured by a sales person that eFibre would be available to my house, not "in the area" within three months from that point in time.