Estate agent doing an "inspection" in the apartment

ddartt

Hi guys, hope to get some advise here!

My landlord (or, to be precise, the landlord's bank, as I believe she has issues with mortgage) is apparently selling the apartment I'm renting and I was given notice to leave in few months. We have had some discussions with them and I have not yet received answers to all of my questions from their side. However, they wanted to send in estate agents into the apartment which I refused until we have other issues cleared.

Now 2 days after I told them so, they're now claiming the estate agents will be doing an "inspection" (first in 5 and a half years I've been living there!). I know they're entitled to do an inspection at reasonable intervals, however in this case I believe its just an excuse to get the agent into the apartment. He couldn't even explain to me what is the purpose of the inspection all of a sudden (not that he has to though). He also said it doesn't matter for him if landlord is present there at this time or not.

Am I allowed to film the agent doing an inspection to ensure its really what they say it is? Will there be any tell-tale signs of what they really are there for?
Can I also refuse him/her taking any photos (as I don't want them to appear on Daft all of a sudden)?
The agent also insists this has to be during the working hours, but during the working hours I work too. Is this a reasonable request from their side?
What could I do if it transpires they've misled me and the real purpose of this "inspection" was to prepare the sale?

Thanks a lot in advance for your responses!

Brego888

Am I missing something here, of course they are preparing for sale.

Zulu

So let me get this straight, you've been given due notice of an intention to sell the property. You're going to be leaving.

And you're making this awkward because.... ???

ddartt

Because I'm still paying the rent to live there, and I'd like to live undisturbed in this place rather than living in an open house and taking time off work to facilitate their preparation for sale?

LL/bank desire to continue receive the income from the apartment whilst simultaneously preparing it for sale is understandable, but doesn't quite take into account tenant's interests.

I have tried to actually negotiate with them the whole thing about viewings, e.t.c., but the landlord says the bank deals with this, and from the bank I hear nothing but silence (or now request to let estate agent in).

homerjay2005

Zulu wrote: »

So let me get this straight, you've been given due notice of an intention to sell the property. You're going to be leaving.

And you're making this awkward because.... ???

would you be happy for an estate agent to come into your apartment that you are renting?

OP is entitled to keep them out for as long as she has an agreement/lease. if she leaves the estate agent in, next step then will be people coming to view the apartment to buy it, while the OP is out.

cagefactor

Am I allowed to film the agent doing an inspection to ensure its really what they say it is? Will there be any tell-tale signs of what they really are there for?

What gain would this bring for you except making you like like a lunatic ! They are obviously there to take some notes about putting the property for sale.

Can I also refuse him/her taking any photos (as I don't want them to appear on Daft all of a sudden)?
The agent also insists this has to be during the working hours, but during the working hours I work too. Is this a reasonable request from their side?
According to the law you have to agree suitable time with the landlord, if during the day time is not suitable for you then they cannot legally enter the apartment without you being there.

Regarding photos, I'm not sure on the law but would seem to me that if its not in the tenancy agreement then it would need to be agreed with you.

What could I do if it transpires they've misled me and the real purpose of this "inspection" was to prepare the sale?

Nothing. It's not your property, they've notified you to leave, you don't own the apartment.

Michael D Not Higgins

If they're doing an inspection and you agree to a time with sufficient notice, I don't see what the problem is. Let them do it and refuse any viewings with potential buyers later on as you're entitled, but an inspection can't be refused because they're going to sell.

You don't own the apartment so the agent is allowed to take photos (if there's something you don't want in the photos, I'd suggest putting it away before the agent shows up). This could just as easily be to facilitate an inspection when comparing to photos taken before the tenancy began.

You may leverage the ability to show the property with the open issues you raised, but you cannot refuse a reasonable request to an inspection.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Look, bottom line you don't own the apartment, the bank does. You have been given what sounds like reasonable notice to leave, and the bank are gearing up to sell their asset. Estate agent/landlord inspections are part and parcel of renting, and if you haven't had an inspection in 5 years count yourself very lucky. I don't get why on earth you'd want to film the estate agent either. Of course he's going to take pictures etc, he's trying to sell the place. If you don't want your peace disturbed, move out.

Tiddlypeeps

I'm pretty sure from a legal stand point the landlord can only arrange inspections for times you both agree too. So in theory you could keep fobbing them off.

Probably better for both if you can come to some sort of agreement tho. Always best to finish a tenancy on good terms if you can, you never know when you might want the reference.

Zulu

homerjay2005 wrote: »

would you be happy for an estate agent to come into your apartment that you are renting?

It's a bit irrelevant how I feel about it - I mightn't be happy, but would I try to be deliberately awkward is the real question. And no, I wouldn't make things awkward. I've been is this situation before, and I accepted it for what it is.
The OP is renting, the OP doesn't own the property. The owner wishes to sell. This mightn't suit the OP, but it's tough sh1t really. And I'd be inclined not to become a d1ck simply because something has happened that doesn't suit me.

OP is entitled to keep them out for as long as she has an agreement/lease. if she leaves the estate agent in, next step then will be people coming to view the apartment to buy it, while the OP is out.

"entitled to"? Listen, the OP is supposed to work with the owner to facilitate a time that's convenient. That's a summary of the legal position - correct me if it's wrong. Now the OP can decide to be a d1ck, or the OP can decide to be accommodating. That's their call, but I wouldn't encourage someone to be deliberately awkward - if everyone had that attitude, life would be unbearable. There's enough d1cks in the world, isn't there?

ddartt

Zulu, I can see your point and I can assure you I wouldn't want to be a d1ck just for the sake of it. As I mentioned, I have tried to talk to the other party to make a compromise but, as I said, the LL keeps deflecting everything to the bank, and the bank purely ignores me.

It takes 2 to tango, if the other side is not doing any dialogue at all, what is the reason I should be helpful and accommodating in return?

I will of course be complying with all my legal obligations as a tenant - at the same time, my understanding was that "inspection" means the landlord/agent can check the condition of the property to ensure no damage is done during the lease, its not intended for the estate agent to prepare the property for sale.

sassyj

ddartt wrote: »

Zulu, I can see your point and I can assure you I wouldn't want to be a d1ck just for the sake of it. As I mentioned, I have tried to talk to the other party to make a compromise but, as I said, the LL keeps deflecting everything to the bank, and the bank purely ignores me.

It takes 2 to tango, if the other side is not doing any dialogue at all, what is the reason I should be helpful and accommodating in return?

I will of course be complying with all my legal obligations as a tenant - at the same time, my understanding was that "inspection" means the landlord/agent can check the condition of the property to ensure no damage is done during the lease, its not intended for the estate agent to prepare the property for sale.

If you're happy for inspection to go ahead, what difference does it make what it's for

Mezcita

ddartt wrote: »

It takes 2 to tango, if the other side is not doing any dialogue at all, what is the reason I should be helpful and accommodating in return?

Probably because as you said you are dealing with a bank because the person who is liable for the mortgage is not in a position to pay it.

We can safely assume that the owner is stressed enough without having to deal with the problem of a tenant being deliberately difficult in terms of allowing the sale to go ahead.

Zulu

ddartt wrote: »

Zulu, I can see your point and I can assure you I wouldn't want to be a d1ck just for the sake of it. As I mentioned, I have tried to talk to the other party to make a compromise but, as I said, the LL keeps deflecting everything to the bank, and the bank purely ignores me.

Not surprising really, that's banks for you.

It takes 2 to tango, if the other side is not doing any dialogue at all, what is
the reason I should be helpful and accommodating in return?

Well take a step back.
Why do you need them to "engage in dialogue"?

If you aren't being cantankerous, why aren't you able to arrange a suitable time with the person (estate agent) who contacted you?
And why are you trying to be pedantic about the purpose of the visit??
And why are you seeking to video someone else just doing a job???

Certainly it come across that you are seeking to be deliberately awkward and for little reason other than life has dealt you a card you don't like; your spitting the dummy/throwing the toys out of the pram.

I will of course be complying with all my legal obligations as a tenant - at the same time, my understanding was that "inspection" means the landlord/agent can check the condition of the property to ensure no damage is done during the lease, its not intended for the estate agent to prepare the property for sale.

Why does this matter to you? REALLY??

Zulu

And sorry, don't get me wrong - I can understand that you are upset. It's a right pain in the hoop. And it's a crappy time to be looking for a new place. BUT try not to let your emotions override what you do next.

And as an aside (seriously not having a pop at you OP), but this is the other side of our renting nightmare. People give out yards about crappy landlords but quickly overlook how a tenant can so easily make life impossible if they choose to.

Again, I stress, I'm not saying that what this OP is/will do - but the opportunity exists none the less.

Dardania

Legally, don't you have to let the landlord's agents in, if they make an appointment to see you?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/tenants_rights_and_obligations.html#lf99d4

Butters1979

OP, just to go back to your original post
"I have not yet received answers to all of my questions from their side. However, they wanted to send in estate agents into the apartment which I refused until we have other issues cleared."

What questions or issues do you need cleared up exactly?

If the place is being sold, I can't see any benefit of you being obstructive.

testaccount123

Id let them in to do a 5-10 minute inspection at a time which suits you - e.g. in the evening when you dont have to take time off work.

I wouldnt entertain any other 'viewings' etc, they can sell the property on their own time, not when you are paying good money to rent it.

B.A._Baracus

Hey op,
Honestly... what are you expecting? You do not own the place and the place is being sold. Now obviously you can tell them to come around in the evening or weekend. Why should you take a day off work to suit them. But ultimately the apartment is being sold.

I know it's stressful and annoying. No one wants to be living in a place for 5+ years then to be told "it's being sold, here's your notice" out of the blue - But that's one of the pitfalls of renting.

You cannot stop the inevitable so just move on (i guess in this situation both figuratively and literally)

ddartt

Zulu wrote: »

Not surprising really, that's banks for you.

Well take a step back.
Why do you need them to "engage in dialogue"?

If you aren't being cantankerous, why aren't you able to arrange a suitable time with the person (estate agent) who contacted you?
And why are you trying to be pedantic about the purpose of the visit??
And why are you seeking to video someone else just doing a job???

Certainly it come across that you are seeking to be deliberately awkward and for little reason other than life has dealt you a card you don't like; your spitting the dummy/throwing the toys out of the pram.

Why does this matter to you? REALLY??

I have offered to stay there an extra couple of months for a higher rent than now. There are personal circumstances why it fits me better and it seems to me like a reasonable offer - considering how long I stayed there, would couple of months really make a difference, and at a higher rate?

However, I certainly would understand if its declined, life is life - what I am astonished by is a complete ignore on their side as it does actually affect when and how I am looking for a new place.

Now coming to the inspections and viewing - even though inspection (the real one) is something the LL is entitled to (and I won't obstructing it by creating excuses or running from the agent), facilitating viewings or estate agents selling the property is not something the LL is entitled to. This is a goodwill the tenant can give and I'm happy to be reasonable and accommodating provided the other side doesn't just plainly ignore me and walks over me by scheduling bogus inspections to facilitate the sale.

I feel for the landlord as its most likely not their fault, however, as a tenant I didn't contribute to the situation, quite contrary - I always payed my rent on time and didn't challenge the rent increases when they happened. So I'm really hoping for a better treatment than just ignoring me and walking over.

JillyQ

Op if the apartment is being sold, they are perfectly entitled to request that the estate agents go in, it should be at a time that suits both of you. However if you are being unreasonable and only allowing viewings at certain times and not showing any form of comprise with them, then you maybe playing straight into there arms.

Also have you spoken to the estate agent about buying the place yourself?

Dardania

ddartt wrote: »

I have offered to stay there an extra couple of months for a higher rent than now. There are personal circumstances why it fits me better and it seems to me like a reasonable offer - considering how long I stayed there, would couple of months really make a difference, and at a higher rate?

However, I certainly would understand if its declined, life is life - what I am astonished by is a complete ignore on their side as it does actually affect when and how I am looking for a new place.

Now coming to the inspections and viewing - even though inspection (the real one) is something the LL is entitled to (and I won't obstructing it by creating excuses or running from the agent), facilitating viewings or estate agents selling the property is not something the LL is entitled to. This is a goodwill the tenant can give and I'm happy to be reasonable and accommodating provided the other side doesn't just plainly ignore me and walks over me by scheduling bogus inspections to facilitate the sale.

I feel for the landlord as its most likely not their fault, however, as a tenant I didn't contribute to the situation, quite contrary - I always payed my rent on time and didn't challenge the rent increases when they happened. So I'm really hoping for a better treatment than just ignoring me and walking over.

Maybe the quid-pro-quo for you staying an extra few months could be that you will facilitate them viewing the place to would be buyers. Otherwise, you will stick to the letter of the law, and facilitate them to inspect only, and claim anything more than that is nuisance? They could then do the viewings on their own time, when they have vacant possession of the apartment (obviously not deriving any rental income?)

ddartt

Dardania wrote: »

Maybe the quid-pro-quo for you staying an extra few months could be that you will facilitate them viewing the place to would be buyers. Otherwise, you will stick to the letter of the law, and facilitate them to inspect only, and claim anything more than that is nuisance? They could then do the viewings on their own time, when they have vacant possession of the apartment (obviously not deriving any rental income?)

I have indeed offered that too - I'm happy to talk to them, the issue is they don't talk to me and just carry on in their own manner. Any sort of answer from them - either way - would be a good starting point, but I'm not even getting this.

Michael D Not Higgins

ddartt wrote: »

I have indeed offered that too - I'm happy to talk to them, the issue is they don't talk to me and just carry on in their own manner. Any sort of answer from them - either way - would be a good starting point, but I'm not even getting this.

I would take no response as a no in this instance. The bank won't want to let you rent longer. The money involved is not worth it. They would need to keep their responsibilities as de jure landlords for the additional time which carries risk for maintenance, repairs, etc. above what they want to take on. They're a bank not a property agency.

They want to liquidate the asset asap to recoup their money and they've given you the statutory required notice in order to do that. If you don't want to facilitate viewings that's your prerogative but an inspection is within their rights.

brightkane

The bank wont care if you are there 5 years or 15 years. It gives them no reason to offer more flexibility.

If I were you I would put my time and energy into finding a new place to live then trying to fight against what will be in the end inevitable.

vandriver

If your landlord is in that much financial trouble that the bank are selling the apartment from under him,then you should really direct your energies to ensuring you get your deposit back.

Mrs OBumble

vandriver wrote: »

If your landlord is in that much financial trouble that the bank are selling the apartment from under him,then you should really direct your energies to ensuring you get your deposit back.

Indeed.

You might also think about who will be conducting your move-out inspection, and what the state of the property and chattels will be at that inspection.

After 5 years, there will be some wear and tear. But I suspect that your behaviour will have a lot to do with what is treated as wear and tear and what is attributed to you.



fyi, I'm a LL (overseas) and my property manager takes photos at every quarterly inspection. Tis very handy having visual evidence of the state of things.

Uno my Uno.

what do you gain from butting heads with the bank? The property is to be sold and you will be removed from it with the appropriate notice regardless of whether or not you make their job difficult.

The bank isn't really obliged to enter into a "dialogue" with you so they won't bother, ther obligations to yum are clearly defined and they will stick to that. Rather than trying to negotiate a situation you aren't able to negotiate put your efforts and energies into finding a new home.

ddartt

Thanks for all the advises!

As a pure discussion point, I'm wondering why is not bothering to enter dialogue and sticking to the legal process to the letter of law from bank's side is called "doing their job", whilst me doing exactly the same is being described as "butting heads" and "being awkward"?

Taboola

ddartt wrote: »

Thanks for all the advises!

As a pure discussion point, I'm wondering why is not bothering to enter dialogue and sticking to the legal process to the letter of law from bank's side is called "doing their job", whilst me doing exactly the same is being described as "butting heads" and "being awkward"?

How much are you putting yourself out by letting them do an inspection?

Zulu

ddartt wrote: »

Thanks for all the advises!

As a pure discussion point, I'm wondering why is not bothering to enter dialogue and sticking to the legal process to the letter of law from bank's side is called "doing their job", whilst me doing exactly the same is being described as "butting heads" and "being awkward"?

Well on a discussion point:

1. banks are wa*kers, that's a given. Do you follow their standards, or do you set your own?
2. it doesn't matter to the bank, but it probably matters to the poor individual the bank have reposed from
3. you'd be making life hard for a number of minor individuals in the bank, estate agency, etc. but not the people you have a gripe with (further up the chain) who set the process the others have to follow.
4. ...and stuff
5. ...and things

NiallBoo

Taboola wrote: »

How much are you putting yourself out by letting them do an inspection?

Op seemed to suggest that they would have to take time off work to accommodate the inspection.

CaoimheSquee

Is there a receiver appointed OP?

Same thing happened to us last year and there was a receiver acting on behalf of the bank. The receiver also appointed a property manager (who was a local estate agent) who would be the contact for general things (repairs, queries etc).
We said we would not allow any agents in to value until we had it in writing that they would guarantee our deposit.

The property manager came out first to do a general inspection and to explain we would pay rent to her for the receivers and to explain the process.

Once we then got in writing that the receivers would honour our deposit we said go ahead with estate agents coming in to value and i think two arrived that evening after work!

We luckily found somewhere else about 3 weeks later and receivers let us move on before the 3 months we had were up with no penalty. Tbh it suited them better to get it on the market quicker. We started the move out on a Thursday night and dropped the keys into them on the Monday or Tuesday and had our deposit within 24 hours.

All I can say is in my experience stand your ground but be fair, we were pleasantly surprised with the fairness we received in return. Know your rights too!!

ddartt

CaoimheSquee wrote: »

Is there a receiver appointed OP?

Same thing happened to us last year and there was a receiver acting on behalf of the bank. The receiver also appointed a property manager (who was a local estate agent) who would be the contact for general things (repairs, queries etc).
We said we would not allow any agents in to value until we had it in writing that they would guarantee our deposit.

The property manager came out first to do a general inspection and to explain we would pay rent to her for the receivers and to explain the process.

Once we then got in writing that the receivers would honour our deposit we said go ahead with estate agents coming in to value and i think two arrived that evening after work!

We luckily found somewhere else about 3 weeks later and receivers let us move on before the 3 months we had were up with no penalty. Tbh it suited them better to get it on the market quicker. We started the move out on a Thursday night and dropped the keys into them on the Monday or Tuesday and had our deposit within 24 hours.

All I can say is in my experience stand your ground but be fair, we were pleasantly surprised with the fairness we received in return. Know your rights too!!

Thanks for sharing your experience, this is very helpful!

How did you get all this information, were you contacted by the bank/receiver or did the LL tell you so?

In my case, I don't have any information at all and LL doesn't provide me any info apart from the notice to terminate the tenancy and saying banks want to sell. That's all I know.

the_syco

ddartt wrote: »

In my case, I don't have any information at all and LL doesn't provide me any info apart from the notice to terminate the tenancy and saying banks want to sell. That's all I know.

Secure another place, and let tell the landlord that either she gives you back your deposit, and you go, or you'll sit tight.

my friend

You've been renting for 5 1/2 years

Have you considered purchasing the apartment?

If you were more amenable there may be an opportunity

newacc2015

my friend wrote: »

You've been renting for 5 1/2 years

Have you considered purchasing the apartment?

If you were more amenable there may be an opportunity

The bank will sell it to the highest bidder, as it should do. Im sure the landlord has a mortgage to pay. If they are in negative equity, they will want to get as much as they can for the apartment.

kitkatman

the op is looking at this from a purely self interest perspective and you have been given some advice which you should heed.

the property you have been renting, is probably a buy to let that has gone horribly wrong for the owner, he/she could be in such a state of negative equity and repayment trouble that you doubling the rent would make no difference. the truth may be that the bank/lender will get their pound of flesh from this property and the longer you occupy it the greater the long term pain for the owner.

you have been given your notice and yes you can be as obstructive as you want over the next few weeks.........but my advice and I give it as a landlord is.....channel your energies into finding a new place to rent....if you plan to be awkward, remember you will have paid a deposit. I like many landlord takes an extensive portfolio of photos before I rent out, and after 5 years there is a strong possibility that you may have been responsibly for wear and tear....so you might find that you will not get all of your deposit back as the "then" and "now" photos may highlight a few issues you would prefer were blinded.

you have now received plenty of sound advice, take it.............unless of course you want some coon coming on and egging you on to be as obtrusive as possible....remember the coon will vanish into cyberspace, you will be facing the reality of such actions within weeks.

aido79

ddartt wrote: »

Thanks for all the advises!

As a pure discussion point, I'm wondering why is not bothering to enter dialogue and sticking to the legal process to the letter of law from bank's side is called "doing their job", whilst me doing exactly the same is being described as "butting heads" and "being awkward"?

I'm guessing it would be because your contract (lease) is with the landlord and not with the bank so in their eyes they have no reason to enter dialogue with you. The landlord is their client in regards to their interests in the property so he will be the person they will deal with and not you.

CaoimheSquee

ddartt wrote: »

Thanks for sharing your experience, this is very helpful!

How did you get all this information, were you contacted by the bank/receiver or did the LL tell you so?

In my case, I don't have any information at all and LL doesn't provide me any info apart from the notice to terminate the tenancy and saying banks want to sell. That's all I know.

Oh the landlord went quiet really. They are in financial trouble and have their own troubles and worries. We fell quite low on priorities!
It was the receiver that gave us all the information really. Some receivers don't appear to know the law though at all though (giving week notices to families and other such madness) and have been known to give completely incorrect information. So I would do your own research here, on the citizens advice form and with threshold.
Main thing is to know your legal period of notice, nail down your deposit and just start looking. Get out when you can as if the bank own it now it will never be anything you can even consider a home!

Wesser

Dont make a mountain out of a molehill. Don't sweat the small stuff. Why agitate on the reason why the banks are bastards and get away with it.... But you do the same thing and you don't get away with it.

The truth is that everyone hates the banks. Wanna be like a bank? Why not just be nice to the poor fella that comes over to do the inspection. It might come back to you some day. Karma and that stuff, yeah?

ddartt

ddartt wrote: »

Because I'm still paying the rent to live there, and I'd like to live undisturbed in this place rather than living in an open house and taking time off work to facilitate their preparation for sale?

There is no need to take time off of be disrupted. Just give them a spare key and let them do their inspections and viewing while you are at work.

Friend of mine is living in a house that's being sold and just have them a key and asked them that if at all possible to do viewing during the day while he is at work and that's what they have done for the most part. They text to say they will be coming and at what time as a courtesy but he is never there. I suppose the main difference is that the property is most likely being sold to an investor and he is hoping to be kept on as a tenant so is really try to come across as a model tenant.

the_syco

ddartt wrote: »

my understanding was that "inspection" means the landlord/agent can check the condition of the property to ensure no damage is done during the lease, its not intended for the estate agent to prepare the property for sale.

Cooperation works both ways; they may take their time returning the deposit... or not return the deposit at all, as they may not have it. Cooperate, and they may allow you to cut your lease short if you find a place, and they give you your deposit when you leave.