Driving a NI reg car in the South

CamperMan

A quick question,

I am a resident of Northern Ireland, living in Co, Fermanagh, I have regular work in Co. Westmeath and sometimes, I will stay for 5 days with friends in Westmeath to save the commuting..

I hear stories of the Gardai taking your car away if they see it a several occasions over a period of time..

What are my rights driving a NI reg car during my days in the South?

First Up

CamperMan wrote:

What are my rights driving a NI reg car during my days in the South?

As far as I know, if you can show that you are a NI resident there is no problem. Maybe have some evidence on you in case anyone asks. A utility bill or some such.

mfceiling

Keep current bills and proof of address on you in case you are stopped. It's a fcuking stupid rule tbh. I worked for a company years ago and they were plagued with this crap...lads maybe down for 2 weeks and then back in the north for a month and getting constant hassle.

PeteK*

If they knew you spent most of the time driving in the republic while spending 5 nights here, I think you'd be expected to pay the VRT.

OldmanMondeo

PeteK* wrote: »

If they knew you spent most of the time driving in the republic while spending 5 nights here, I think you'd be expected to pay the VRT.

Why, he lives in the North, pays motor tax and insurance there. Only works down South.

NIMAN

This is a grey area.

I live on the soithern side of the border, and it's a big issue up here, with people constantly moaning about customs men trying to get them to obey the law.

If you live in Ireland, ie resident permanently in it, then you can't drive a NI reg car. Doesn't stop many trying to do it though. Especially around the border where many Ex-northerners keep their car plated, taxed and insured in the north. When they take up residency in the south they can change their plates over to Irish plates free of charge, with no VRT to pay.

However, as you are technically an NI resident and only visiting Ireland to work, it would be impractical for you to change your plates over, take out Irish insurance, get your car NCT d etc.

Keep proof of your residency with you in your vehicle and documents that the car is taxed and insured in the north. You should be ok as you are genuinely not trying to defraud the system.

PeteK*

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

Why, he lives in the North, pays motor tax and insurance there. Only works down South.

Because 5 days are spent living here.
I'm not saying he should, I'm just saying I'd imagine it's what the government would expect.

power pants

its all the one country anyway, I reckon you will be fine. Probably best to keep some proof of address just in case the gard isnt a republicanand tries to bust you

NIMAN

One country! Ha! Not when it comes to buying cars and driving them it ain't.

It's Customs you have to worry about, not the gardai.

The Customs guys have a lot of power when it comes to illegally owned cars. They can confiscate your vehicle if they believe it should be Irish registered. Generally you will be warned first though.

I know and work with people who have been fined for driving NI car whilst resident in Donegal. One fine was over 4k, and they had to re register the car too.

slimjimmc

PeteK* wrote: »

Because 5 days are spent living here.
I'm not saying he should, I'm just saying I'd imagine it's what the government would expect.

You'd be surprised. Even if his employer is in the republic a NI resident can work and live here during the week and pay Irish taxes and still be classed as a non-resident and the car deemed a temporary import (keep NI registration). Revenue are often satisfied once he demonstrates his familial ties are in NI and he regularly leaves the State.

colm_mcm

Being resident in NI. means you're there at least 185 days of the year.

canhefixit

Have your insurance, licence, log book and a bank statement or gas bill in the car and show them that if stopped, once you have a paper trail to back up your story they cant do a thing, except for being dickheads thats just their personality

vjmcdonnell

If u have family ties in the north u can live and work in the south and drive your NI car. I have a collage in work who has lived in Dublin for over 6 years and the Garda took his car. He fought them and in the end they had to admit that he was right. The revenue actually came to meet him near work to agree a compo payment.

So if your family live in the north then drive on.

vjmcdonnell

If u have family ties in the north u can live and work in the south and drive your NI car. I have a collage in work who has lived in Dublin for over 6 years and the Garda took his car. He fought them and in the end they had to admit that he was right. The revenue actually came to meet him near work to agree a compo payment.

So if your family live in the north then drive on.

colm_mcm

more detail needed on that one tbh ^

Seth Brundle

vjmcdonnell wrote: »

If u have family ties in the north u can live and work in the south and drive your NI car. I have a collage in work who has lived in Dublin for over 6 years and the Garda took his car. He fought them and in the end they had to admit that he was right. The revenue actually came to meet him near work to agree a compo payment.

So if your family live in the north then drive on.

That is not correct.
Firstly Revenue are quite clear on what constitutes residency.
Secondly, my wife from NI had to pay VRT several years ago despite fulfilling what we believed was sufficient information to prove residency. In the end she hadn't enough bank transactions and other evidence of living there to prove it.
Lastly, revenue came to meet your colleague (sic) near work to give him compensation? Really? :rolleyes:

vjmcdonnell

kbannon wrote: »

That is not correct.
Firstly Revenue are quite clear on what constitutes residency.
Secondly, my wife from NI had to pay VRT several years ago despite fulfilling what we believed was sufficient information to prove residency. In the end she hadn't enough bank transactions and other evidence of living there to prove it.
Lastly, revenue came to meet your colleague (sic) near work to give him compensation? Really? :rolleyes:

If you have family ties to the North u can drive a UK reg car. The information is available just have to look for it.

Lastly, I never said they came out to give him money, they came out to try and agree a settlement as they took his car and after appeal the appeal commissioner was very critical of the revenue and there actions.
The revenue lied and concealed information

And your wife would have to pay VRT as her family ties are to the south, U.

endabob1

My understanding is that it's about residence and not family ties, since you can your partner can have differing residence's....

For a married couple or civil partners, the residence status of each spouse is assessed independently of the other so it is possible for one spouse or civil partner to be resident and the other to be non-resident.

Your residence for tax purposes depends on the number of days that you are present in Ireland during a tax year (A tax year means the period from 1 January to 31 December).

You are resident for tax purposes for a year if:

You spend 183 days or more in Ireland in that year from 1 January – 31 December or,
If you spend 280 days or more in Ireland over a period of two consecutive tax years, you will be regarded as resident for the second tax year. For example, if you spend 140 days here in Year 1 and 150 days here in Year 2, you will be resident in Ireland for Year 2.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/moving_country_and_taxation/tax_residence_and_domicile_in_ireland.html


If the OP is spending 5 days a week working in Westmeath for a period of over 183 days in a calendar year, then he is an Irish resident and needs to import the car and pay the VRT. There is an exemption for the temporary importation, if he can prove that for example it's a short term secondment and his normal life is back in Fermanagh and would return permanently after the stint in Westmeath is up.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/leaflets/temporary-exemption-foreign-registered.html

vjmcdonnell

We are NOT talking about income tax but having to pay VRT on the car you drive.

endabob1

Well aware of that

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/vrt-guide.html#section3

Vehicle Registration Tax is chargeable on the registration of motor vehicles (including motor-cycles) in the State. All motor vehicles in the State, other than those brought in temporarily by visitors, must be registered with the Revenue Commissioners. A vehicle must be registered before it can be licensed for motor tax purposes.

So he needs to prove that the vehicle he has brought into the state is being brought in "temporarily"
If he is an Irish tax resident he cannot claim that it is temporary.

If he remains a Tax resident of another country, he can claim it is temporary.

endabob1

Duplicate post

vjmcdonnell

Well I know that u can keep your NI Reg and live here if family ties are to the north

Charles Babbage

endabob1 wrote: »

My understanding is that it's about residence and not family ties, since you can your partner can have differing residence's....



Your residence for tax purposes depends on the number of days that you are present in Ireland during a tax year (A tax year means the period from 1 January to 31 December).

You are resident for tax purposes for a year if:


http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/moving_country_and_taxation/tax_residence_and_domicile_in_ireland.htm

This is all very fine, but completely irrelevant. Income taxes are not the issue yet in these threads people routinely post irrelevant income information on income tax!

If the OP is spending 5 days a week working in Westmeath for a period of over 183 days in a calendar year, then he is an Irish resident and needs to import the car and pay the VRT. There is an exemption for the temporary importation, if he can prove that for example it's a short term secondment and his normal life is back in Fermanagh and would return permanently after the stint in Westmeath is up.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/leaflets/temporary-exemption-foreign-registered.html

As the link state "if your occupational ties are in a different country from your personal ties then the country of your personal ties is taken as your normal residence if you return there regularly (i.e. for most of your non-working days)"

Staying overnight to avoid driving home does not constitute living, especially if you have a rent a room or some other ephemeral arrangement. The problem is that there are many bull****ters in this respect, many of them post in this forum, and the people for whom these rules are intended. The problem is that there is no easy way of showing where you are in the ordinary course of travel and while dealing with the Gardai you can produce a witness to whatever the Revenue seem to operate differently.

If this work is only for a year or so it doesn't matter. Otherwise read these rules and understand them. You can generate a trail for yourself. Buy fuel at the border rather than in Westmeath and always pay by card. Tweet selfies from Fermanagh pubs. Probably your home in Fermanagh is used for official correspondence, income tax etc, in any case. Your iPhone or Android Phone produces a track of where you go.

The other proactive approach is to write the Revenue and tell them you are doing this and ask if you are required to do anything else to record this. If you do this, then they cannot subsequently come along and claim that you should have had x bank transactions or whatever.

newacc2015

If OP has used the car in the UK for the last 6 months. Cant he just get an IRL plate and register it here without paying. It seems so according to this leaflet
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/leaflets/tax-relief-transfer-residence.html

newacc2015

If OP has used the car in the UK for the last 6 months. Cant he just get an IRL plate and register it here without paying. It seems so according to this leaflet
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/leaflets/tax-relief-transfer-residence.html

NIMAN

newacc2015 wrote: »

If OP has used the car in the UK for the last 6 months. Cant he just get an IRL plate and register it here without paying. It seems so according to this leaflet
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/leaflets/tax-relief-transfer-residence.html

Yes they can, and it's often a thing overlooked by those residents who just want to bitch about customs personnel.

It does of course mean if the car is over 4 yrs old it will have to have an NCT booked, plus Road tax and insurance will all be done 'down south'

NIMAN

vjmcdonnell wrote: »

Well I know that u can keep your NI Reg and live here if family ties are to the north

Completely incorrect.

I am from NI, all my family circle still live there, I work and pay tax there, but live in ROI and am definitely not allowed to drive permanently on an NI plate.

Plus as I said earlier, I know people who are exactly the same and who have been fined for driving NI cars without reregistering them.

Charles Babbage

newacc2015 wrote: »

If OP has used the car in the UK for the last 6 months. Cant he just get an IRL plate and register it here without paying. It seems so according to this leaflet
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/leaflets/tax-relief-transfer-residence.html

Strictly speaking, no, he remains resident in the North and hasn't moved his normal residence. If and when he decides me might want to move to the 26 counties permanently then he can import a car.

Seth Brundle

vjmcdonnell wrote: »

If you have family ties to the North u can drive a UK reg car. The information is available just have to look for it.

Please provide a link because the information I'm aware of says otherwise.
Is there a maximum number of nights allowed stay here?

vjmcdonnell wrote: »

Lastly, I never said they came out to give him money, they came out to try and agree a settlement as they took his car and after appeal the appeal commissioner was very critical of the revenue and there actions.
The revenue lied and concealed information

Lies? Like what? Was this reported anywhere in the media?

vjmcdonnell wrote: »

And your wife would have to pay VRT as her family ties are to the south, U.

We weren't married at the time. Her family ties were to NI, like I said!

vjmcdonnell

The lad I know was living and working in Dublin for 6 years and got an exemption due to the fact the family ties to the north. He had the fight the revenue as they don't want you to do it. But it is completely legal and nothing they can do about it. They will do everything they can to fight it but it is the law.

tiernanobrien

In a simiar position the the OP, just keep an up to date bill / bank statement with you and you shouldn't have any bother...

The J Stands for Jay

vjmcdonnell wrote: »

If you have family ties to the North u can drive a UK reg car. The information is available just have to look for it.

So a Nordie uncle means I get a yellow reg?

Seth Brundle

tiernanobrien wrote: »

In a simiar position the the OP, just keep an up to date bill / bank statement with you and you shouldn't have any bother...

With daily transactions on the bank statement. If it's showing as many RoI transactions then you're screwed!

Charles Babbage

kbannon wrote: »

With daily transactions on the bank statement. If it's showing as many RoI transactions then you're screwed!

This was my point earlier, the Revenue do not state what information they require nor are daily transactions on a NI bank account likely if you working in the 26 counties. In fact I know people living near the border, and commuting daily, who would have little expenditure in the North other than motoring expenses as they would largely socialise in Dundalk also.The typical single person living with parents etc does not have a huge number of bills, regardless of where they living. So perhaps it is wise to pay some of the household bills from your bank account rather than hand over money to your mother.

Which is why I said earlier, write to them and ask them what they require, they cannot ask you to to engage in unusual measures under the EU directive.

fullstop

Not like you'll ever be stopped anyway. I lived with someone for 2 years in Dublin who parked his northern reg car outside the house every evening and drove to and from work and he wasn't stopped once.

armaghlad

A close relative of mine lives and works in Dublin and has done for the past 4/5 years. All this time they have had an NI reg car, and just never bothered to change the plates. How they were never caught is a minor mystery but with a new car on the way (also NI reg) they are going to go fully legit.

I'm not sure that there are any loopholes surrounding this; however, wherever your permanent residency is is where you pay your tax. If your permanent address is in County Fermanagh wtf can the Rev Comm do to prove otherwise?

Northern Monkey

It is based on personal ties for car registration. I did it for 10 years, working in Dublin, but travelling home most weekends. I have a link to the relevant legislation on my work PC, will post it tomorrow.

The biggest issue I had over the time was getting insurance cover, I paid a 25% loading on my premium to cover the car being in the south Monday-Friday.

Edit: http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/leaflets/temporary-exemption-foreign-registered.html

Point 3,

if your occupational ties are in a different country from your personal ties then the country of your personal ties is taken as your normal residence if you return there regularly (i.e. for most of your non-working days).

That has changed slightly from when I did it as regularly wasn't defined.

Seth Brundle

fullstop wrote: »

Not like you'll ever be stopped anyway. I lived with someone for 2 years in Dublin who parked his northern reg car outside the house every evening and drove to and from work and he wasn't stopped once.

armaghlad wrote: »

A close relative of mine lives and works in Dublin and has done for the past 4/5 years. All this time they have had an NI reg car, and just never bothered to change the plates. How they were never caught is a minor mystery but with a new car on the way (also NI reg) they are going to go fully legit.

In both of the above cases, did their insurance company know of the RoI location?

armaghlad wrote: »

I'm not sure that there are any loopholes surrounding this; however, wherever your permanent residency is is where you pay your tax. If your permanent address is in County Fermanagh wtf can the Rev Comm do to prove otherwise?

The revenue commissioners don't prove anything. If you are claiming that you live in NI, then you have to prove it.

NIMAN

Your residency is where you live normally, not where you pay taxes normally.

I am not entitled to drive an NI car in Ireland, despite what anyone is claiming. There have been anti VRT groups active for many years up here aroind the border, and if it was as simple as saying to Customs and Revenue that you work in NI or have family there, I'm sure they would have added that argument to their websites and advised all their followers of this rule.

I simply cannot believe that Revenue will allow a ROI resident to drive an NI car willingly. I even know of a friend who had an NI company car and he lived in Donegal, and his firm had to get him a company car from the south and not the north, after he was stopped and warned by customs

Charles Babbage

NIMAN wrote: »

Your residency is where you live normally, not where you pay taxes normally.

I am not entitled to drive an NI car in Ireland, despite what anyone is claiming. There have been anti VRT groups active for many years up here aroind the border, and if it was as simple as saying to Customs and Revenue that you work in NI or have family there, I'm sure they would have added that argument to their websites and advised all their followers of this rule.

That is the point, working does not necessarily change your residence, it is a question of where you live not where you work. Having family does not mean a first cousin, but the people you live with. A lot of chancers in Donegal in no sense live in NI.

I simply cannot believe that Revenue will allow a ROI resident to drive an NI car willingly. I even know of a friend who had an NI company car and he lived in Donegal, and his firm had to get him a company car from the south and not the north, after he was stopped and warned by customs

The Revenue comply with the EU directive, but are inevitably suspicious even of genuine cases owing to the number of chancers and the range of grey areas in practice. The directive can allow the use of a company car from NI with permission.

coyle21

Friend says the customs impounded a Mate of his who lives in Dundalk as it was NI Reg but it was an NI rental car or something and he stopped payments on it and they got the car returned to him, not sure how true that is but that what he said

endabob1

Charles Babbage wrote: »

The other proactive approach is to write the Revenue and tell them you are doing this and ask if you are required to do anything else to record this. If you do this, then they cannot subsequently come along and claim that you should have had x bank transactions or whatever.

That is actually the best piece of advice; if you are upfront with them they can't retrospectively get funny about it and as long as you are not willfully trying to defraud the revenue they will take a sensible approach.

fullstop

kbannon wrote: »

In both of the above cases, did their insurance company know of the RoI location?

I've no idea, but I doubt it. Sure they would't insure someone who is residing in anoretic country would they?

Seth Brundle

endabob1 wrote: »

That is actually the best piece of advice; if you are upfront with them they can't retrospectively get funny about it and as long as you are not willfully trying to defraud the revenue they will take a sensible approach.

Again, to use my wife's example, we discussed her situation with the VRO in Naas. A year later when she went to register the car, they felt that her list of receipts, etc. wasn't sufficient to warrant a waiver of the VRT.

sdanseo

NIMAN wrote: »

I know and work with people who have been fined for driving NI car whilst resident in Donegal. One fine was over 4k, and they had to re register the car too.

If they were living in Donegal, they were in blatant breach of the law and should be fined. That's tax dodging which affects all of us who have to pay tax ourselves.

NIMAN

sdanseo wrote: »

If they were living in Donegal, they were in blatant breach of the law and should be fined. That's tax dodging which affects all of us who have to pay tax ourselves.

Totally agree. As someone who has paid VRT a few times, I would love nothing more to buy a cheaper car in NI and drive it around where I live.

But I can't. As you say it's against the law. No matter what the anti VRT brigade say. They claim Ireland is breaking European law, yet there is not one example of someone who has challenged this in court. Other countries have an equivalent of vrt, it's not like Ireland is alone here.

But I also like the idea of being able to drive from Ireland into NI without having to take back roads, texts friends to see if they saw any customs about, scan fb before leaving for work in the morning to see if the Customs are going to stop me, have to park my car somewhere away from my own driveway so it doesn't look like I own an illegally plated car.

This is how people I know live on a daily basis. And to think they could have reregistered their car for nothing.

Charles Babbage

kbannon wrote: »

Again, to use my wife's example, we discussed her situation with the VRO in Naas. A year later when she went to register the car, they felt that her list of receipts, etc. wasn't sufficient to warrant a waiver of the VRT.

Discussion is worth the paper it is written on, a letter on the other hand provides a record.

Seth Brundle

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Discussion is worth the paper it is written on, a letter on the other hand provides a record.

They would not give us anything in writing apart from the standard brochures.

armaghlad

kbannon wrote: »

In both of the above cases, did their insurance company know of the RoI location?


The revenue commissioners don't prove anything. If you are claiming that you live in NI, then you have to prove it.

AFAIK my relative was commuting in their car and this wasn't covered under her policy.

vjmcdonnell

kbannon wrote: »

They would not give us anything in writing apart from the standard brochures.

Surely them must give you the decision in writing or are they worried to put it in writing and be found out to be wrong.