Could Irish cities learn from Los Angeles' public transport?

monument

We often look to cities with better public transport all the time but one I've mentioned a few times and I think Irish cities could learn a lot from is car-centric Los Angeles.

While some Irish reasons may have better modal share (for complex reasons), there's a lot to be learned from LA in the way they do things... we're:

• Behind LA on funding (see here)
• Behind LA on democratic involvement in transport -- nearly all LA Metro board members are elected to local county or city government)
• Behind LA on integrated ticketing (bus-rail day etc passes on paper first, free smartcard transfers between lines)
• Behind LA on branding and information -- ie Metro is the brand for the bulk of the rail and buses across all of the cities whcih make up LA County, and exclent output such as metro.net and the Source, and mapping and route infromation is not something just fixed everys-so-often
• Behind LA on smartcards and behind LA on enabling using your phone as payment, see this
• Behind LA on following through on constructing rail lines
• Behind LA on allowing bicycles on trains and behind LA (and the rest of the US) on putting bicycle racks on buses
• Behind LA on considering a watered down BRT after LA built decent BRT (even if one route is not directly comparable as it's on an old railway line)
• Behind LA on 24 hour bus services and late night rail (Friday and Saturday until 2am)
• Behind on security -- policing contracted to LA County Sheriff's office, who's officers are also ticket inspectors.

Not all of these things are mainly about cost and even the costly ones are held back over here it's because the value is not seen rather than the cost (ie seeing the cost of everything and value of little, at least when it comes to big ticket items).

The systems and planning in LA seem better than what Irish cities currently have. But I'm by no way saying it's a perfect setup -- for example, within LA County many/most cities run their own buses and there seems to be some that could be integrated fully into their county brand, but with many it does not matter as ticketing is integrated and others are very local (ie dropping off people with mobility issues to their homes, free peak shuttles to Metro rail stations).

On rail and rail planning LA has excelled in the recent past, for a car-centric city at least:

[URL="https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/5842/375150.JPG[/IMG][/URL]
(NOTE: sliver and orange are BRT)

I visited LA for conferences in three different years, a week at a time, about ten years ago and was first surprised by the rail network it had and since they have pushed on a opened lines, constructed others and are planning more. The Flash (ie not iphone supported) interactive map here is a good ilistration how they have contuined to expand the system since the 1990s... and maybe how it's sometimes good to go bit by bit rather than building full lines?

Dublin and Irish cities on the other hand need to wait for everything. And wait. And wait.

My point isn't that LA is the best, but rather we can sometimes learn from their progressiveness in public transport, maybe sometimes more than we can learn from the Londons and Berlins of this world (my main contention is Amsterdam is maybe the most comparable city in the EU to Dublin but that's another post for another day).

Atlantic Dawn

Does LA have unions to deal with?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Irish cities could learn from most cities about public transport.

OUside of Dublin, though, scale would be an issue. Most Irish cities are nowhere near as big as LA.

monument

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

OUside of Dublin, though, scale would be an issue. Most Irish cities are nowhere near as big as LA.

Dublin is nowhere near as big as LA County (population ~10 million), I'm more so talking about their processes and systems of doing things.

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Does LA have unions to deal with?

Yes, it does.

bruno1x

In Dublin Bus the drivers are behind security screens for their safety , you don't see that state side even in the worst areas.
What can we learn from the USA? Lock up scum bags.

HivemindXX

bruno1x wrote: »

In Dublin Bus the drivers are behind security screens for their safety , you don't see that state side even in the worst areas.
What can we learn from the USA? Lock up scum bags.

Do you not? This article from 2013 highlights the number of attacks on drivers in New York and states that 25% of MTA buses have security screens and that should rise to 50% by 2015.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/MTA-Bus-Driver-Assaults-New-York-City-Protection-Cameras-Partitions-219826291.html

ClovenHoof

I can not image a more absurd comparison to Dublin!

How about cities with the same population and urban densities: Amsterdam, Helsinki, Oslo...

markpb

It's actually a very relevant comparison. Both cities have strong car dependencies and a pro-car culture. Both cities had a rail network until the 60s and both are trying to rebuild it now. Both are deploying integrated/smart card ticketing systems which have to work across multiple public and private operators. Both have a large hinterland which struggles to be served adequately by public transport.

Both spent a billion dollars/euro adding extra lanes to a major urban motorway at the same time although their design was less crude than ours.

Both have similar local political structures - a group of local authorities covering the urban area plus a strong reliance on central government funding for large projects.

strassenwo!f

An issue here is that if LA doesn't do this work, many businesses and people can and will up and leave for other cities, in California itself or elsewhere in the States.

A large percentage of the people and businesses in Dublin realistically have to be in the capital, if they're in Ireland at all, and can't or couldn't do their work as effectively in some other town/city in Ireland. A higher percentage than in LA, I'd venture.

While it is important to divvy out the available cash on a reasonably fair basis, to all the various areas of the country, it remains true that the only city in Ireland which could justify (and greatly benefit from, I believe), for example, expenditure on an underground line or two, is Dublin.

For many businesses, Dublin is mainly competing with other cities elsewhere in the European Union, not in Ireland. Being able to get and keep such businesses is good for Dublin, and the country as a whole.

Unfortunately that penny hasn't fully dropped with some outside the Pale. So, in order to apparently stop Dublin moving off into the distance, away from what is available in other Irish cities, the feeling that 'Dublin gets everything' gains credence.

As a result, the city suffers, as does the country.

Grandeeod

markpb wrote: »

It's actually a very relevant comparison. Both cities have strong car dependencies and a pro-car culture. Both cities had a rail network until the 60s and both are trying to rebuild it now. Both are deploying integrated/smart card ticketing systems which have to work across multiple public and private operators. Both have a large hinterland which struggles to be served adequately by public transport.

Both spent a billion dollars/euro adding extra lanes to a major urban motorway at the same time although their design was less crude than ours.

Both have similar local political structures - a group of local authorities covering the urban area plus a strong reliance on central government funding for large projects.

10 years ago this forum used to laugh at LA and hold it up as an example of how the US of A had got it all wrong. Unfortunately Ireland has looked to the aforementioned US of A for too much. LA is irrelevant to us. Similarities and comparisons can be outweighed by so much more. Dublin needs to look at two things. Real comparisons and most importantly, itself. If we start with Dublin as it is and what we need to do, we can create a solution.

This LA thing is just another rambling piece of irrelevance that usually leads to politicians going on junkets that mean nothing.

KCAccidental

Manchester would be a good example for us to follow. Building where and when they could so a broad network is built incrementally (not unlike the LUAS tbf). Constantly waiting for a 'big bang' of building in public transport is hampering Dublin.

decent article here about metrolink http://www.citymetric.com/transport/manchester-metrolink-six-lessons-other-cities-497

monument

ClovenHoof wrote: »

I can not image a more absurd comparison to Dublin!

How about cities with the same population and urban densities: Amsterdam, Helsinki, Oslo...

Did you read the opening post? Did you miss the mention of Amsterdam?

In regards to what's listed in the opening post, why is LA so absurd?

Grandeeod wrote: »

10 years ago this forum used to laugh at LA and hold it up as an example of how the US of A had got it all wrong.

With regards to public transport, what had we to be laughing at LA 10 years ago?

Their better branding? Their intergrated ticketing? Their metro lines? Their delivering on projects and building up a rail and high-frequently bus network?

Grandeeod wrote: »

LA is irrelevant to us. Similarities and comparisons can be outweighed by so much more.

Yet, good old LA is trying harder than us and getting firm results.

Grandeeod wrote: »

Dublin needs to look at two things. Real comparisons and most importantly, itself. If we start with Dublin as it is and what we need to do, we can create a solution.

Dublin looking at it self is one of the largest excuses given for why things can't be done or need to be compromised etc.

Rather than engage in rhetoric, can you say why Dublin should not learn from LA in regards to the things listed in the opening post?

Stephen15

I never thought of la as a public transport inspiration I always thought new york was the only us city with a decent public transport system.

newacc2015

bruno1x wrote: »

In Dublin Bus the drivers are behind security screens for their safety , you don't see that state side even in the worst areas.
What can we learn from the USA? Lock up scum bags.

Eh? Are you serious? LA is the gang capital of America for a reason. There is police coppers going over LA pretty non-stop to deal with high speed chases and dealing with gangs. Anyone with any money in LA, lives in gated communities with some gated communities being double gated for security. There is massive drug addiction problems in LA with crack and crystal meth. Large amounts of LA would be pretty unliveable. Can you tell me any part of Dublin where there is gang violence on the street in broad day light? Where there is drive by shootings? Mass incarnation in the US has done a horrific job at dealing with violence

Are you really going to imply that LA has less scumbags than Dublin? The grass always seems greener on the other side.

LA needed a mass transport system as congestion costs the local economy billions a year.There was no alternative, it just had to be done. Most LA highways make the old M50 before the upgrade seem fast moving. LA had no choice but to put in a metro, as it was a way of dealing with some of the congestion.

US municipalities are unique, as they can issue bonds like Governments do. They can raise money on the bond markets to fund schools, roads, etc. It is possible for the likes of LA to issue their own bonds and build a metro. If Ireland had a Federal and state structure like the US or even Switzerland. Dublin City could issue its own bonds and build a metro. Instead we are stuck with a national Government and pretty powerless local authorities.

If DCC decided to take the incentive to build a metro or Luas tomorrow. They just wouldnt be able to realistically raise the money to anything. Ireland is in the position to borrow for infrastructure and it is cheap to do so. There is just no political will.

Stephen15

bruno1x wrote: »

In Dublin Bus the drivers are behind security screens for their safety , you don't see that state side even in the worst areas.
What can we learn from the USA? Lock up scum bags.

In America I would imagine they behind bulletproof glass

Cookie_Monster

ClovenHoof wrote: »

I can not image a more absurd comparison to Dublin!

I kinda have to agree. While there are a lot of valid reasons listed, California is one of the world's largest and richest economies and LA is awash with money for funding, unlike Dublin.

KCAccidental

Stephen15 wrote: »

I never thought of la as a public transport inspiration I always thought new york was the only us city with a decent public transport system.

there has been a bit of a renaissance of light rail in the US in the past decade or so with Charlotte, Dallas, Houston, Portland and Seattle leading the way.

xband

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Irish cities could learn from most cities about public transport.

OUside of Dublin, though, scale would be an issue. ALL Irish cities are nowhere near as big as LA.

FYP

---

LA is roughly 18 times bigger than Dublin and has a population of 14 million more people than the entire Republic of Ireland.

In terms of scale, it's about the least appropriate model you could possibly find for Dublin or any other city although there's a lot of merit in looking at some of how they operate local government in the USA in general.

Appropriate models might be : Lyon, Copenhagen, Amsterdam, Brussels, Vienna, Bilbao, maybe in a North American context Boston would be fairly reasonable.

LA is literally one of the world's largest metropolitan areas and there's nothing even remotely comparable in Ireland. It's bigger than London.

bruno1x

newacc2015 wrote: »

Eh? Are you serious? LA is the gang capital of America for a reason. There is police coppers going over LA pretty non-stop to deal with high speed chases and dealing with gangs. Anyone with any money in LA, lives in gated communities with some gated communities being double gated for security. There is massive drug addiction problems in LA with crack and crystal meth. Large amounts of LA would be pretty unliveable. Can you tell me any part of Dublin where there is gang violence on the street in broad day light? Where there is drive by shootings? Mass incarnation in the US has done a horrific job at dealing with violence

Are you really going to imply that LA has less scumbags than Dublin? The grass always seems greener on the other side.

Attack a bus driver in The USA the attitude is "Hang em high"
Attack a bus driver in Ireland, the bleeding heart attitude which is prevalent "God love em, he's had a hard life"
Thats the difference and why we have public transport which is not seen as a viable means of transport by large sections of the population.
The Government don't have to spend hundreds of millions on new public transport too encourage people to use it, just properly police the transport we already have and watch the number of users rise.

Collie D

bruno1x wrote: »

Attack a bus driver in The USA the attitude is "Hang em high"
Attack a bus driver in Ireland, the bleeding heart attitude which is prevalent "God love em, he's had a hard life"
Thats the difference and why we have public transport which is not seen as a viable means of transport by large sections of the population.
The Government don't have to spend hundreds of millions on new public transport too encourage people to use it, just properly police the transport we already have and watch the number of users rise.

What are you ****ing about? How often are bus drivers attacked in Dublin. I assume you have figures to back up your comment.

bruno1x

Collie D wrote: »

What are you ****ing about? How often are bus drivers attacked in Dublin. I assume you have figures to back up your comment.

Why do you think every single bus in the Dublin Bus fleet has a security screen?

Collie D

bruno1x wrote: »

Why do you think every single bus in the Dublin Bus fleet has a security screen?

For security? What's your point?

bruno1x

Collie D wrote: »

For security? What's your point?

And why do they have to fit security screens to every bus?

Collie D

bruno1x wrote: »

And why do they have to fit security screens to every bus?

I answered that. For security. Again, what is your point? You're a sheltered soul if you think Dublin is unsafe compared to a city like LA

Any sign of those stats?

bruno1x

Collie D wrote: »

I answered that. For security. Again, what is your point? You're a sheltered soul if you think Dublin is unsafe compared to a city like LA

Any sign of those stats?

No need for security screen in USA, the law comes down hard on attacks on bus drivers, Dublin on the other hand.....

HivemindXX

bruno1x wrote: »

No need for security screen in USA, the law comes down hard on attacks on bus drivers, Dublin on the other hand.....

You've said this before. You are wrong. You claim there are no screens in the US but there are and that is easily provable. I posted a link a yesterday, since you didn't pay any attention to that I doubt there is any point in providing you with more evidence.

I could do some research to find out how assaults on bus drivers are prosecuted in the US and that the results of those prosecutions are but I don't feel the need to bother. Most likely this new 'fact' comes directly from your imagination too. From my perspective now everything you say is false unless backed up by some evidence.

monument

Grandeeod wrote: »

10 years ago this forum used to laugh at LA and hold it up as an example of how the US of A had got it all wrong

10 years ago with public transport planning and operating, LA was ahead of Ireland on funding, democratic involvement in transport, integrated ticketing, smartcards, branding and information etc etc... and we were and still are building motorways like mad and our planning of housing etc was madness...

Why were we laughing at LA?

Grandeeod wrote: »

Dublin needs to look at two things. Real comparisons and most importantly, itself. If we start with Dublin as it is and what we need to do, we can create a solution.

Dublin looking at itself, Dublin is different... yeah, that's echoed around the world just before a city successively learns from and copies another city which people claimed was too different.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I kinda have to agree. While there are a lot of valid reasons listed, California is one of the world's largest and richest economies and LA is awash with money for funding, unlike Dublin.

A quick google shows Dublin has a higher GDP than LA.

xband wrote: »

LA is roughly 18 times bigger than Dublin and has a population of 14 million more people than the entire Republic of Ireland.

I'm not saying Dublin and LA are comparable in size but LA County has only a population of 10 million. It's one thing viewing the wider LA city as LA County, but calling LA the Greater LA Area (pop 18m) is like saying Amsterdam is Randstad.

xband wrote: »

In terms of scale, it's about the least appropriate model you could possibly find for Dublin or any other city although there's a lot of merit in looking at some of how they operate local government in the USA in general.

Appropriate models might be : Lyon, Copenhagen, Amsterdam, Brussels, Vienna, Bilbao, maybe in a North American context Boston would be fairly reasonable.

LA is literally one of the world's largest metropolitan areas and there's nothing even remotely comparable in Ireland. It's bigger than London.

The difference in scale was mentioned in the opening posts and posts after that, there are however many other comparable features such as car-centric-ness, ripping up tram/streetcar lines, poor planning, etc.

Can we only learn from cities of around the same scale? If so, why?

bruno1x wrote: »

No need for security screen in USA, the law comes down hard on attacks on bus drivers, Dublin on the other hand.....

"Jury Finds Man Convicted Of Killing Metro Driver Was Sane At The Time"

"Assault of Los Angeles Bus Driver Wearing Turban"

"Metro Bus Driver Punched in Face in Sun Valley; Attacker Sought"

"Man arrested for allegedly hitting female Metro bus driver in face"

"Bus Driver Injured In Echo Park Shooting"

feargale

"Behind LA on 24 hour bus servicesand late night rail (Friday and Saturday until 2am)"

Only the army could provide this service in some parts of Dublin.

newacc2015

bruno1x wrote: »

Attack a bus driver in The USA the attitude is "Hang em high"
Attack a bus driver in Ireland, the bleeding heart attitude which is prevalent "God love em, he's had a hard life"
Thats the difference and why we have public transport which is not seen as a viable means of transport by large sections of the population.
The Government don't have to spend hundreds of millions on new public transport too encourage people to use it, just properly police the transport we already have and watch the number of users rise.

Really? I have yet to hear anyone with a some what decent job using the bus or metro in LA. It is generally only low income workers who use public transport in the US bar SF and NYC. Where as I yet to hear anyone not using Dublin Bus or the DART, as they dont feel safe. Hundreds of thousands of wealthy Dubliners take Dublin Bus with zero issues.

bruno1x

HivemindXX wrote: »

You've said this before. You are wrong. You claim there are no screens in the US but there are and that is easily provable. I posted a link a yesterday, since you didn't pay any attention to that I doubt there is any point in providing you with more evidence.

I could do some research to find out how assaults on bus drivers are prosecuted in the US and that the results of those prosecutions are but I don't feel the need to bother. Most likely this new 'fact' comes directly from your imagination too. From my perspective now everything you say is false unless backed up by some evidence.

"25% of MTA buses have security screens and that should rise to 50% by 2015."
The last time i was in NY was before 2013, and there where no security screens,but every bus in Dublin had them.
100% in Dublin, why not the same State side? Good chance the diver has a lump of iron on his hip. If caught by police the scum bag will face jail time, over here at best the probation act.

bruno1x

newacc2015 wrote: »

Really? I have yet to hear anyone with a some what decent job using the bus or metro in LA. It is generally only low income workers who use public transport in the US bar SF and NYC. Where as I yet to hear anyone not using Dublin Bus or the DART, as they dont feel safe. Hundreds of thousands of wealthy Dubliners take Dublin Bus with zero issues.

Red Line LUAS blows your argument out of the water.

John_Rambo

bruno1x wrote: »

Red Line LUAS blows your argument out of the water.

The existance of the Red Line LUAS means hundreds of thousands of wealthy Dubliners don't take Dublin Bus with zero issues?

Negatory.

xband

bruno1x wrote: »

No need for security screen in USA, the law comes down hard on attacks on bus drivers, Dublin on the other hand.....

There are plenty of security screens in Boston I can assure you.

Also there seems to be a good few stories around about attacks on LA transit workers and drivers

Even from 3 days ago a really nasty racist incident:

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-attack-on-metro-driver-sparks-fear-in-sikh-community-20160114-story.html

Maybe they should get screens ?!

Article about installing screens on LA busses after attacks on drivers (operators)

http://la.streetsblog.org/2015/03/20/metro-installing-polycarbonate-shields-to-protect-bus-operators/

Cookie_Monster

monument wrote: »

A quick google shows Dublin has a higher GDP than LA.

not even close

California: 1.959 trillion
Ireland: 231 billion

LA: 700 bn
Dublin 73 bn

LA per capita: 60k
Dublin per capita: 53k

xband

LA GDP per capita is $60,148
Dublin is $53,266 (11th wealthiest region in the OECD)

Cork and SW Ireland actually rank 24th $46149 ahead of Massachusetts. Ahead of Belfast and just behind Munich and Hamberg.

Other Irish regions rank a lot lower.

Overall though Ireland ranks pretty well on GDP per capita.

Your LA stat is miscalculated.

monument

Search for: "gdp per capita" "Los angeles", brings up: GDP per Capita Los Angeles $49,100

Search for: gdp per capita Los angeles, brings up: Top 20 cities based on per-capita GDP. 20. Los Angeles, Calif.: $52,391

xband

Depends how you define LA. The bigger the spread the lower the GDP per capita as you take in less affluent neighbourhoods and suburbs.

The figure I quoted I'd from the US Bureau of Satistics for a standard definition of the LA are.

The 797k per capita figure is out by at least a factor of ten though or is defining LA as one street in Beverly Hills.

Dravokivich

To be honest, what I got from the OP was about planning infastructure and developing over time. Nothing really to do overall with developing to on the same scale.

The only thing that I think makes it harder planning infastructure around Dublin (admitting ignorance on my part) is the issue of Liffey Valley. And how to deal with that without a lot of investing in bridges. The main one's other than the M50, are Lucan, Chapelizod, Islandbridge and then everything in town.

bruno1x wrote: »

"25% of MTA buses have security screens and that should rise to 50% by 2015."
The last time i was in NY was before 2013, and there where no security screens,but every bus in Dublin had them.
100% in Dublin, why not the same State side? Good chance the diver has a lump of iron on his hip. If caught by police the scum bag will face jail time, over here at best the probation act.

It's become a requirement due to incidents of drivers being threathened and attacked with syringes in the '90's. Nothing to do with anticipating whether or not the assailant would get off lightly.

bk

While every Dublin Bus has a security screen as a standard piece of equipment, I almost never see them being actually used!

I'd say 95% of the time the screens are down and not used.

The way people are going on here you would think Dublin is Baghdad! Dublin really isn't a particularly dangerous city at all.

My girlfriend use to live in one of the dodgiest parts of Dublin and use to walk home at 3am every night from her job. Never had a single problem. Sure she would see the odd bit of "messing", but easily avoided. This is a woman walking home on her own at 3am in the dodgiest parts of Dublin!

Similarly with have a bunch of Brazilian friends, a few of them beautiful girls living on Ballybough Road, they walk home at night and never had any problems. When Irish people hear where they live and tell them how dangerous it is, they laugh and tell you some stories about what real dangerous crime is like in a Brazilian city.

There is certainly an element of unattractive behaviour by some "scumbag" types, but Dublin really isn't a particularly dangerous city at all. People should really get out some more and maybe travel a bit to broaden their horizons and get some perspective.

Dyr

bruno1x wrote: »

In Dublin Bus the drivers are behind security screens for their safety , you don't see that state side even in the worst areas.
What can we learn from the USA? Lock up scum bags.

Yeah one of the real benefits of LA is that low crime rate

Stephen15

Security screens are a fairly standard piece of equipment on buses in all major cities in europerror for what ever reason they aren't as common in the us.

MJohnston

I'd imagine in Europe the screens are more about protecting the money than the driver whereas in the US they're definitely needed to prevent attacks on the driver - you haven't met crazy till you've met LA crazy.

One thing I really don't think works with the Dublin to LA comparison is, having lived in California, there is absolutely no comparison between how car-centric they are (I'd call it car-dependent actually) over there, and how Dublin is. It's staggering the amount of infrastructure and amenities in CA that are completely inaccessible to you if you don't drive. Whereas Dublin is very much a pedestrian-friendly city centre (in terms of accessibility), and a bicycle-friendly urban area.

[as a funny aside, I had to type in a captcha to view this thread and it was a photo of an LA street sign]

Del2005

newacc2015 wrote: »

Really? I have yet to hear anyone with a some what decent job using the bus or metro in LA. It is generally only low income workers who use public transport in the US bar SF and NYC. Where as I yet to hear anyone not using Dublin Bus or the DART, as they dont feel safe. Hundreds of thousands of wealthy Dubliners take Dublin Bus with zero issues.

Agree with this. I lived in Portland OR for a while and used the MAX a good bit. None of my US co workers used it.

markpb

Del2005 wrote: »

Agree with this. I lived in Portland OR for a while and used the MAX a good bit. None of my US co workers used it.

It's always interesting to see the actual facts instead of stereotypes and heresay. An APTA study done in 2007 has this in its summary:

These surveys summarized the results of questionnaires completed by over 496,000 public transit riders sampled by transit systems that carry 60 percent of all transit trips in the United States

Household Income: Public transportation riders report a wide range of household incomes. Household incomes less than $15,000 are reported by 20.1 percent of public transit riders; 45.6 percent report incomes from $15,000 to $49,999; 24.8 percent report incomes from $50,000 to $99,999; and 9.5 percent report incomes of $100,000 or more. The median household income of public transit users is $39,000 while for the population as a whole it is $44,389. All incomes are in 2004 dollars.

http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/transit_passenger_characteristics_text_5_29_2007.pdf

MJohnston

markpb wrote: »

It's always interesting to see the actual facts instead of stereotypes and heresay. An APTA study done in 2007 has this in its summary:


http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/transit_passenger_characteristics_text_5_29_2007.pdf

You would need to show us figures for what qualifies as low income in that city though. Up to $70k in San Francisco, for example, would possibly be low income!

monument

Take up of public transport / cycling / etc by higher paid workers or indeed workers of any level can vary a lot between areas but also it varies a lot between different companies and their cultures.

For example in Dublin: City centre locations will more likely have a higher use of public transport than ones near to the M50, but different city centre companies vary a lot too. Workplace travel plans and promotions supported by the NTA have shown to work wonders in shifting people to sustainable modes.

xband

Dublin should have been planning in public transport with other projects.

For example there should have been a Luas Line run along side all of those new 1990s/2000s era radial motorways as it would have given you high volume transit options.

There also should have been a Luas Tunnel put in along with the port tunnel.

It would have opened the options of northern Luas lines into Swords and maybe along Griffith avenue and up into DCU and Ballymun .. Branches into Finglas and Coolock and so on.

You could easily have created a major tram station in the docks at that stage and it should have been planned 30 years ago.

Hopefully TII might see some joined up thinking on road and rail.

We should be planning in lines in Cork at this stage but even any suggestion of Luas outside the two lines in Dublin is met with monocles falling out of eye sockets and discussions about "down the country"

Things like public transport have to go in early and they have to be planned in early or they become hideously expensive retrofits.

West Dublin in particular is a massive lost opportunity. They should have put in extensive Luas infrastructure in the 1990s, even if only reserving the space for the tracks.

It would have made it possible to massively reduce traffic loads.

Basically at this stage Cork should probably have two Luas lines.

Dublin should probably have 6 or 8 by now if not more.

We're patting ourselves on the back for rolling out a couple of tramlines and electrifying a 19th century coastal railway in Dublin when similar sized cities have often got small metros and tons of tramways.