First Human Presence into North-est regions on the Planet pushed back 10,000 years

_Tombstone_

A newish finding of a butchered (by humans) Mammoth up in Siberia has shaken up timelines of human spread by a big margin....again.

http://gizmodo.com/a-mysterious-mammoth-carcass-could-change-human-history-1752685610

Wibbs

That is interesting indeed. What humans were they though? If they were modern humans that puts them in the area way before we thought. If Neandertals they shouldn't be close to that far north.

Manach

I did a quick read through a book "Neanderthal rediscovered" .
In Russia, the Mezmaiskaya cave system is where Neanderthal bones were found and this in the Caucacus region in this time period.

Adam Khor

Seeing as this is in Siberia, couldnt they have been Denisovans as well?

Wibbs

Could be AK, but since they weren't supposed to have tailored clothing for such an environment it still leaves a question.

Adam Khor

So either they were indeed making clothes or they were physiologically adapted to such environments (furry until proven otherwise? :pac:)

Kind of frustrating, how little we know about them. They seem to have been very widespread, so why aren´t we finding full skeletons or skulls, like with Neanderthals?

Wibbs

Maybe we have. The Red Deer people might be them. There are a host of Asian, particularly Chinese fossil hominids that show non modern human features going back over 100,000 years. The human story started off being very European in focus, with a small foray into Asia with the first Erectus types found there, then the focus really switched to Africa and Asia tended to be a bit of the poor relation for most of the 20th century(travel and academic restrictions in the area didn't help of course). That's changing now thankfully.

Linnaeus

It seems to me that Neanderthal was a robust, hardy chap who could have withstood northern climates better than we might think. Better, maybe, than Cro Magnon himself. And Neanderthal must have known how to make suitable clothing for all four seasons, even if he did glue pieces of garments together instead of sewing them, as Wibbs suggests. I don't see him as being a furry fellow: maybe just a bit more hirsute than the average modern man. And at his level of human sensibility, he would hardly have scurried along naked.

Neanderthal should be neither overestimated nor underestimated. Within certain cultural-intellectual limitations, I think that he did accomplish quite a lot and spread out over large areas of the globe, even far afield into inhospitable regions.

Adam Khor

Good to know you're still around Linnaeus.

Re: Red Deer Cave People, it never occured to me that they may be the Denisovans, probably cause I cant help but to be enamoured with the idea of them being big hirsute yeti-like things (I know, the evidence is compleyely lacking, but I tend to fancy the most spectacular versión of anything). Reading about them RDCP it appears they did have disproportionally big molars, so they may very well be the missing piece of the puzzle.

_Tombstone_

New research has H.Sapiens moving out of Africa 50,000 years earlier than thought (100,000 years ago), breding with Neanderthals over in Asia and those Neanderthals then moving on to Europe via Siberia and breding with the second wave of H.Sapiens that then came out of Africa from a different southerly route.

'The event we found appears considerably older than that event.'

Professor Siepel added: 'One very interesting thing about our finding is that it shows a signal of breeding in the 'opposite' direction from that already known.

'That is, we show human DNA in a Neanderthal genome, rather than Neanderthal DNA in human genomes.'

Theirs more breeding and bones in this Article than at a rabbit Farm.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3451444/Neanderthals-bred-early-humans-50-000-YEARS-earlier-thought-Timeline-rewrite-history-ancient-migrations.html

The team also analysed the DNA of another archaic human relative - a Denisovan individual - whose remains were found in the same cave in the Altai Mountains as the Altai Neanderthal.

Denisovans, like Neanderthals, are members of the human line that eventually became extinct.

The Denisovan's genome showed no traces of modern human DNA unlike, Neanderthal found in the same cave.

These findings do not mean modern human ancestors never mated with Denisovans or European Neanderthals, but Professor Siepel said 'the signal we're seeing in the Altai Neanderthal probably comes from an interbreeding event that occurred after this Neanderthal lineage diverged from its archaic cousins, a little more than 100,000 years ago.'

It is possible a group of modern human ancestors from Africa separated early from other humans, at a time when present-day African populations diverged from one another, around 200,000 years ago.

The researchers suggest there must therefore have been a long lag between the time when this group branched off the modern human family tree, roughly 200,000 years ago, and the time they left their genetic mark in the Altai Neandertal, about 100,000 years ago.

The group were then lost to extinction.

Martin Kuhlwilm of the Max Plank Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology said the team focused on the genomes of contemporary individuals from five populations across Africa to identify mutations which most of them have in common.

This was the data that provided evidence of 'regions in the Altai Neanderthal genome that carry mutations observed in the Africans - but not in the Denisovan' or in Neanderthals found in European caves.

Professor Sipel added: 'This is consistent with the scenario of gene flow from a population closely related to modern humans into the Altai Neanderthal.

'After ruling out contamination of DNA samples and other possible sources of error, we are not able to explain these observations in any other way.'

feargale

Couldn't monkeys have done the butchering?

_Tombstone_

feargale wrote: »

Couldn't monkeys have done the butchering?

:eek:

Linnaeus

Dear Wibbs and Tombstone,

I'm not so familiar with the chronology of ancient hominids and hominins. Could you please tell me, when and where do we have the first SURE evidence of Homo Sapiens Sapiens on this planet? Were there really two types of Cro Magnon, a more primitive one and a more advanced, which differed in appearance? Going back further, when and where does the earlier, more "simian" Neanderthal type appear? The second, more refined Neanderthal? Denisovans, Homo heidelbergensis? I need to know this chronology because I'm attempting to put together a logical, scientific time chart which would indicate man's progress and probable cross- breeding patterns. Everything I know about hominin evolution seems to indicate that, after (probably widespread) initial mating with some of the less-developed hominins such as the late remnants of Heidelberg Man, Neanderthal and possibly the Denisovans, the Cro-Magnon type breeded out most of this foreign DNA with marriages to individuals exclusively of his own kind. The foreign strain in Sapiens Sapiens would have become so diluted that no more than 9% (maximum) of it lingers today in human beings, and its typical physiological traits are hardly ever to be seen today except in rare cases of genetic reversion.

_Tombstone_

Linnaeus wrote: »

Dear Wibbs and Tombstone,

I'm not so familiar with the chronology of ancient hominids and hominins. Could you please tell me, when and where do we have the first SURE evidence of Homo Sapiens Sapiens on this planet? Were there really two types of Cro Magnon, a more primitive one and a more advanced, which differed in appearance? Going back further, when and where does the earlier, more "simian" Neanderthal type appear? The second, more refined Neanderthal? Denisovans, Homo heidelbergensis? I need to know this chronology because I'm attempting to put together a logical, scientific time chart which would indicate man's progress and probable cross- breeding patterns. Everything I know about hominin evolution seems to indicate that, after (probably widespread) initial mating with some of the less-developed hominins such as the late remnants of Heidelberg Man, Neanderthal and possibly the Denisovans, the Cro-Magnon type breeded out most of this foreign DNA with marriages to individuals exclusively of his own kind. The foreign strain in Sapiens Sapiens would have become so diluted that no more than 9% (maximum) of it lingers today in human beings, and its typical physiological traits are hardly ever to be seen today except in rare cases of genetic reversion.

I cant answer that, try this dude.

He does a fair tear down of the study in dailymail above. Has a twitter on his page there if ya want to get in touch.

Linnaeus

Thank you, Tombstone. I will carefully read this article and then post my opinions of it.