Apartment block - Raw Sewerage everywhere

danger_mouse_tm

Hi,

We have a serious problem with raw sewerage in the back car park of our apartment block. It overflows out of a man hole cover regularly. When the builder (currently running the management company) becomes aware of it, he sends someone down with a slurry tanker to suck it up and empty it into another cover closer to the mains sewerage. At first, he told us that it was due to people shoving nappies down the toilet. There is a small pump station out that back that is supposed to push the sewerage up to the main drain. I don't think it even works. However, there are no longer any babies living in the apartment block.

This has been going on for years. The issue was raised by me at last years AGM. He told us that it was a very complex issue and moved forward to other items. Neither my presence at the meeting or my concerns were on the minutes of the meeting. The builder is going to step down from the management company this January. We are now left on our own to form a new management company and take on a management agent.

I don't know what kind of situation the finances are in regarding getting a completely new system fitted. The sinking fund was taken last year by the builder to "feather" the existing accounts so that property could be sold.

I contacted the EPA last year and they were happy that the builder would sort it. I don't know what to do now!

Taboola

Surely this is a hazard? Would the council have any input here?

Flatzie_poo

danger_mouse_tm wrote: »

The builder is going to step down from the management company this January.

Get it in writing that you have issued your concerns and raised it with the builder prior to him standing down.

If you have an address/email write to both. Registered postal letter, preferably.

This could take a legal route in the future. Cover your back.

EPA's procedures as to filing a complaint;

Step One - Contact the Person or Business Directly
Step Two - Contact the Local Authority
Step Three - Contact the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)

All info you need here;
http://www.epa.ie/enforcement/report/#.VpjUoPmLTmE

danger_mouse_tm

Just contacted the council via email. I spoke with one of the other residents via email that said she spoke to the builder the other night who was pumping the Sewage from behind the Duplexes and transferring it into the drain in front of the car park. She asked him what was the hold up and he said that they were waiting on the Council to sign off on something and that he had hoped that it would be done before Christmas but wasn't.

The guy has an answer for everyone. The first time this was raised, he told us that he couldn't get the initial person back to do the job and look over it. He has used that excuse several time, saying that he can't get people to do anything for him.

I can see tenants using this as an excuse to stop paying rent!

let's see what the council comes back and says.

Flatzie_poo

It's your choice, but I implore you to send a registered letter now.

If it goes legal, this proves the problem existed before him stepping down, later down the line.

If he's a shyster - which he seems - he'll try worm out of it that this is an issue since he stepped down.

That's not the case here, and can be disproved. But he could try it.

A simple letter can save a lot of possible headaches.

Best of luck in your endeavours!

danger_mouse_tm

Flatzie_poo wrote: »

It's your choice, but I implore you to send a registered letter now.

If it goes legal, this proves the problem existed before him stepping down, later down the line.

If he's a shyster - which he seems - he'll try worm out of it that this is an issue since he stepped down.

That's not the case here, and can be disproved. But he could try it.

A simple letter can save a lot of possible headaches.

Best of luck in your endeavours!

I'm doing it right now!

Thanks for the advice!

mickdw

Not trying to be smart but just be aware that the term for the stuff that goes through the pipes is sewage. Sewerage is more the pipework / infrastructure....
....Raw sewage escaping from sewerage system.

I only mention it as if writing to EPA etc, it's better to have these things right.

danger_mouse_tm

mickdw wrote: »

Not trying to be smart but just be aware that the term for the stuff that goes through the pipes is sewage. Sewerage is more the pipework / infrastructure....
....Raw sewage escaping from sewerage system.

I only mention it as if writing to EPA etc, it's better to have these things right.

Good Lord Mick, You're a gentleman and a scholar. I would have never have known there was even a difference. I'm relying on the spell checker here. I detest mistakes like "their and they're". I appreciate the correction!

Mrs OBumble

danger_mouse_tm wrote: »

I don't know what kind of situation the finances are in regarding getting a completely new system fitted. The sinking fund was taken last year by the builder to "feather" the existing accounts so that property could be sold.

What does "feather" the accounts mean, and why was it allowed?

I suspect that the owners are both metaphorically and literally in deep **** at this point.

Turtle_

1. At the next AGM dispute the minutes of the previous AGM. Insist that the point you raised is included in the minutes, and that you raising the issue is recorded in the current minutes...

2. Call an EGM. Appoint a solicitor and engineer to investigate the issue.

danger_mouse_tm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

What does "feather" the accounts mean, and why was it allowed?

I suspect that the owners are both metaphorically and literally in deep **** at this point.

I'm sure there's no pun intended there but depending on how you look at it, we could be up to our necks in it!

So as far as the accounts are concerned. There are some owners that were behind in their bi-monthy management fees. It's my understanding that in order for apartments to be sold, the accounts have to be in good standing. The builder was in a position where he had remaining unit(s) to be sold and used the money from the sinking fund (which we had just started paying into (extra 200euro per unit) to make it look like everyone was up to date. His accountant assured us that the money was still there and be transferred when everyone pays up. However, to my knowledge the builder is not interested in pro actively going after the owners that have not paid. I believe there may be one owner who has never paid more than 20 euro a month, just to keep himself out of court.

Graces7

Puzzled re EPA. I have had dealings with them and they aim to pass concerns on immediately to eg the council, or maybe in this case the builder. They back off as soon as they know action is being taken. It may be worth while calling them and explaining that no action has been taken? I got results with a slurry issue by doing that.

danger_mouse_tm

Graces7 wrote: »

Puzzled re EPA. I have had dealings with them and they aim to pass concerns on immediately to eg the council, or maybe in this case the builder. They back off as soon as they know action is being taken. It may be worth while calling them and explaining that no action has been taken? I got results with a slurry issue by doing that.

You're absolutely correct. I spoke to a guy on the phone last year from the EPA and he did genuinely sound concerned. He went out, examined the site and spoke with the builder. He was happy that it was all sorted. The EPA would give you the illusion that they are doing their best with their 24 hour hotline (which you can't call from outside of Ireland).
I seem to be doing a lot better this time by contacting the builder and telling him of my intention to get the Council, EPA and a Solicitor involved. He has told me by return email that "there is a new Pump being installed to put this matter right . Also to make good Tarmac around same and to make good kerbs that need attention ..some of park to be relied and fit a vent pipe to man hole half way up the hill from car parking below . All this work is priced by outside contractor . This covered by a bond with Co Council and has to be done to their satisfaction."

I will see what the Council say. They have forwarded the matter on to "the appropriate department"!

irlrobins

His accountant assures you??? I'd be looking for an audit of the management company accounts, undertaken by an independent auditor. Something dodgy going on here.

Also, if he owns the unsold units, as developer he is reasonable for paying the management fees for all those units until they are sold. The sinking fund is not there to cover his liabilities.

My feeling is your management company is going to be left with empty accounts and massive debts in the next couple of years. Act now!

danger_mouse_tm

danger_mouse_tm wrote: »

You're absolutely correct. I spoke to a guy on the phone last year from the EPA and he did genuinely sound concerned. He went out, examined the site and spoke with the builder. He was happy that it was all sorted. The EPA would give you the illusion that they are doing their best with their 24 hour hotline (which you can't call from outside of Ireland).
I seem to be doing a lot better this time by contacting the builder and telling him of my intention to get the Council, EPA and a Solicitor involved. He has told me by return email that "there is a new Pump being installed to put this matter right . Also to make good Tarmac around same and to make good kerbs that need attention ..some of park to be relied and fit a vent pipe to man hole half way up the hill from car parking below . All this work is priced by outside contractor . This covered by a bond with Co Council and has to be done to their satisfaction."

I will see what the Council say. They have forwarded the matter on to "the appropriate department"!

Who is going to maintain the new pump and pay for a replacement pump in the future.

Turtle_

OP, fundamentally you have a conflict of interest here. The builder shouldn't be running the management company - he can't act simultaneously in the best interests of both. You need a solicitor to look into the accounts, and an engineer appointed independently of the builder to assess the problem with the drainage.

You - the owners - need to act immediately on this. If he's selling the last of the units then he no longer has an interest in ensuring matters are resolved - he can dissolve the company and leave you all high and dry. Or soggy and stinky, really.

danger_mouse_tm

irlrobins wrote: »

His accountant assures you??? I'd be looking for an audit of the management company accounts, undertaken by an independent auditor. Something dodgy going on here.

Also, if he owns the unsold units, as developer he is reasonable for paying the management fees for all those units until they are sold. The sinking fund is not there to cover his liabilities.

My feeling is your management company is going to be left with empty accounts and massive debts in the next couple of years. Act now!

I don't believe he ever paid for the vacant units. I think it was a general understanding that he was not liable to pay for units that were not yet occupied. The accounts only reflected payments for the units that had been sold.

Mrs OBumble

danger_mouse_tm wrote: »

I don't believe he ever paid for the vacant units. I think it was a general understanding that he was not liable to pay for units that were not yet occupied. The accounts only reflected payments for the units that had been sold.

Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. You're not just up to your neck in it, you're actually treading water (well, polluted water!) now.

Please tell us that your complex doesn't have a lift or anything else that will need expensive maintenance (except the sewerage system!).

danger_mouse_tm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. You're not just up to your neck in it, you're actually treading water (well, polluted water!) now.

Please tell us that your complex doesn't have a lift or anything else that will need expensive maintenance (except the sewerage system!).

Funny you should say that. There is a lift, actually, I think there are two of them. There is some serious money spent on them every year. I can never understand the high phone bill that we are charged for them (I understand that they have to have a phone for emergencies). We also have electric gates that have been hit a few times by the bin truck reversing in (a neighbor to the right of the complex parks his car right the way up to the gate which makes it extremely hard to reverse the bin truck given the tail swing on the truck). I think one of the owners pulled the gates open with his jeep during a power cut and pulled the motor out of the ground.
Don't even get me started on the bins which are the local recycling and dumping area for the whole town!

jeamimus

Turtle_ wrote: »

1. At the next AGM dispute the minutes of the previous AGM. Insist that the point you raised is included in the minutes, and that you raising the issue is recorded in the current minutes...

2. Call an EGM. Appoint a solicitor and engineer to investigate the issue.

Don't wait until the next AGM. Email the management/builder now and ask that the draft minutes be corrected now. Put as many residents as you know in copy to your message.
This provides a record and may get more forces on your side.

intheclouds

EPA has hazardous waste as part of their remit, perhaps contact them for advice?

April 73

I suspect you already know you have a big problem OP.
Money shouldn't be removed from a sinking fund to make it appear that accounts are up to date, that there is no outstanding debt & the company in better health than it actually is.
I would call that fraud. You need audited accounts pronto.

Minutes must reflect the issues raised.

I would advise you to contact http://www.apartmentowners.ie
You are going to have a steep learning curve if the handover of the management company is to be done correctly with monies intact. As owners you need to be really on the ball & you need the help of other owners. You are obviously proactive OP but I promise you, you will need the help & input from other owners. Also contact your local councillors - there will be at least one or two who will be knowledgeable on management companies.

Lantus

Agm minutes only need include key decisions. Not points or opinions. You can ask it be included but not insist.

Sounds like a fault in the drainage which by its nature will be very expensive or even impossible to correct. You will need a drainage company to inspect and report on this.

I'm guessing the builder will deny wrong doing for ever.

irlrobins

danger_mouse_tm wrote: »

I don't believe he ever paid for the vacant units. I think it was a general understanding that he was not liable to pay for units that were not yet occupied. The accounts only reflected payments for the units that had been sold.

You should read and get familiar with Section 18 of the MUD act. This deems the developer to be the owner of the unsold units and therefore responsible for the unsold unit’s service charges.

You really need to get together with some of the owners and sort this out. Not only will you be facing massive future outgoings, but you'll find it impossible to sell your own unit in the future. Any decent solicitor advising a buyer will tell them to run a mile

Lantus

irlrobins wrote: »

You should read and get familiar with Section 18 of the MUD act. This deems the developer to be the owner of the unsold units and therefore responsible for the unsold unit’s service charges.

You really need to get together with some of the owners and sort this out. Not only will you be facing massive future outgoings, but you'll find it impossible to sell your own unit in the future. Any decent solicitor advising a buyer will tell them to run a mile

Mud act also takes a dim view of using sinking funds for any other reason than one off non recurring expenses. Using it to fluff out an account to help sell units not only breaches this but could very easily be construed as fraud. Even if you intend to put it back.