Widening an elevated driveway

briaineo

Hi

I need to widen an elevated driveway by about 3-4 ft the driveway is about 200 meters in length and the drive itself has a varying drop off of 2 - 2.5ft at most.

The driveway is 100+ years old and has held up well.

I'm wondering how best to retain the fill I want to use for widening. Only widening one side.

Was thinking concrete posts maybe and some sort of retaining shuttering.

Gumbo

briaineo wrote: »

Hi

I need to widen an elevated driveway by about 3-4 ft the driveway is about 200 meters in length and the drive itself has a varying drop off of 2 - 2.5ft at most.

The driveway is 100+ years old and has held up well.

I'm wondering how best to retain the fill I want to use for widening. Only widening one side.

Was thinking concrete posts maybe and some sort of retaining shuttering.

Structural / Civil engineering works and may require the detailed design of an Engineer.

You will not get any structural advice on this forum.

Metric Tensor

Hi briaineo,

I'm not trying to piss on your parade here but from what I see the following is the case:

You are planning:

• A 5000 square foot house
• On the Shannon flood plain
• In rural Clare
• You want to elevate the house
• Put a flat roof / roof garden on top of it
• The proposed location is 200m from the nearest public road which is accessed via an elevated roadway (presumably because of poor ground conditions and flooding potential).
• Neither of you is farming the land
• And (I'm assuming this part): neither of you is working locally
• You have no planning permission
• You constantly avoid questions about your architect/engineer/building professional - which would make us all wonder if you have employed one yet

With all of the above in mind I think you are way ahead of yourself getting detailed prices for blocklayers, insulation, floor finishes, roof coverings, etc. It is a good idea to have put thought into construction details prior to planning but I think you are ahead of yourself in this regard too.

I'd suggest the following:
Multiply the floor area in square foot (i.e. 5000) by €120. This gives you €600,000. Take that as a rough estimate of the build cost but bear in mind it will be higher for you because of your unique ground conditions, house style and location. If you don't have access to at least 500k don't fool yourself into thinking you can build this house by direct labour / self build or any other means.

You have two options:
1. If you have 500k available go to local professional and put the next 6-8 months of your life fighting tooth and nail to get planning permission. It will be a monstrous battle. Then worry about exact prices later.
2. If you don't have 500k available then do exactly above but plan a smaller house.

Either way - forget about the nitty gritty details until you talk to an expert about your proposed house style, location and the likelihood of getting planning.

briaineo

Metric Tensor wrote: »

Hi briaineo,

I'm not trying to piss on your parade here but from what I see the following is the case:

You are planning:

• A 5000 square foot house
• On the Shannon flood plain
• In rural Clare
• You want to elevate the house
• Put a flat roof / roof garden on top of it
• The proposed location is 200m from the nearest public road which is accessed via an elevated roadway (presumably because of poor ground conditions and flooding potential).
• Neither of you is farming the land
• And (I'm assuming this part): neither of you is working locally
• You have no planning permission
• You constantly avoid questions about your architect/engineer/building professional - which would make us all wonder if you have employed one yet

With all of the above in mind I think you are way ahead of yourself getting detailed prices for blocklayers, insulation, floor finishes, roof coverings, etc. It is a good idea to have put thought into construction details prior to planning but I think you are ahead of yourself in this regard too.

I'd suggest the following:
Multiply the floor area in square foot (i.e. 5000) by €120. This gives you €600,000. Take that as a rough estimate of the build cost but bear in mind it will be higher for you because of your unique ground conditions, house style and location. If you don't have access to at least 500k don't fool yourself into thinking you can build this house by direct labour / self build or any other means.

You have two options:
1. If you have 500k available go to local professional and put the next 6-8 months of your life fighting tooth and nail to get planning permission. It will be a monstrous battle. Then worry about exact prices later.
2. If you don't have 500k available then do exactly above but plan a smaller house.

Either way - forget about the nitty gritty details until you talk to an expert about your proposed house style, location and the likelihood of getting planning.

Some of what you say is correct:

House is 4,500 sq ft

House is not planned on a flood plain a small portion of our 12 acre site is prone to holding a small amount of water. Due to a drain on the road that sometime blocks. No issues in the bad weather we just had.

House is in rural clare.

House is behind a circle of 60ft trees which are in turn 75m from entrance gates.

I don't particularly want or see any need to elevate the house at all but the other half wants to.

House could be much nearer to the public road but looks a lot better in its planned location.

Flat roof yes: had the pre planning meeting and this isn't an issue yet.

I can get half a million from the bank but trying to save where I can. And want to know exactly were not to overspend.

Yes, neither of us work in the area at the moment.

Not working the land yet but will do part time in 2017.

We have had a pre-planning meeting.

Professionals have been consulted re the plans since some are in the family.

Metric Tensor

Spend your time on the Green Cert and building the rural links. Everything else is a waste if you don't have planning. Also there's no need for a 12 acre site. You're only shooting yourself in the foot.

Honestly worry about the planning now. By the time you get it (2017) all the building prices will have changed anyway.

briaineo

Metric Tensor wrote: »

Spend your time on the Green Cert and building the rural links. Everything else is a waste if you don't have planning. Also there's no need for a 12 acre site. You're only shooting yourself in the foot.

Honestly worry about the planning now. By the time you get it (2017) all the building prices will have changed anyway.

The rural links part is fine, all that criteria is satisfied. One of us needs to do the green cert mainly for tax reasons but we will both do it anyway.

As for the prices/costs actually more interested in the methods fair enough tend to look at the cost efficient one but is it essentially the method I'm after. Was kinda hoping 6/7 months for planning but as you say probably closer to 2017.

As for the 12 acres: that's what's available but will more likely end up at 4.

Planners did mention the size of the house, but depending on the site size this would factor in so a least there's loadsa acreage available if necessary.

Back in the boom there was interest from a developer who wanted to build 10 houses in that exact location.

The main issue at pre-planning meeting was regarding access to the house there are two routes into the site one not used to often (proper pillars and gates onto road) and the other is the road i asked about widening; but at the other end of the private road.

Essentially the house is just next to the private road which connects both access points to the site.

We have been advised to get a planning consultant by an architect which we will do.

Metric Tensor

briaineo wrote: »

The rural links part is fine, all that criteria is satisfied.

From what little you've said - I'm not so sure it has.

briaineo wrote: »

Planners did mention the size of the house, but depending on the site size this would factor in so a least there's loadsa acreage available if necessary.

briaineo wrote: »

The main issue at pre-planning meeting was regarding access to the house there are two routes into the site one not used to often (proper pillars and gates onto road) and the other is the road i asked about widening; but at the other end of the private road.

briaineo wrote: »

We have been advised to get a planning consultant by an architect which we will do.

This is the type of thing you need to worry about initially (i.e. now). I think it'll be a much bigger battle than you anticipate.

briaineo

Metric Tensor wrote: »

From what little you've said - I'm not so sure it has.










This is the type of thing you need to worry about initially (i.e. now). I think it'll be a much bigger battle than you anticipate.

The other half is from the location parents own the land. Satisfies all rural criteria.

At the pre-planning meeting we were told if you use the other entrance no problem with the access regarding the application. Thing is the nearer entrance (200m) is the most logical (other entrance is maybe 700-800m away and would be shared but onto a smaller road). They say using the entrance I wanted to use would be adding to the of traffic on the road. Now the entrance I want use is actually the main entrance to the main house already on the lands albeit 1km away and never used as vehicular access regularly a few times a year but only for farm machinery.

I said to the planners if I own the land can I not just remove the right of way for the other property and the burden of traffic on paper remains the same if not less. I was told that would not work because the other house is a listed building. She seemed to imply that it would have if the building wasn't listed.

The listed building part make any sense to you along with the rest of me speil?

Thanks

Metric Tensor

briaineo wrote: »

The other half is from the location parents own the land. Satisfies all rural criteria.

Not necessarily from my experience. Just because your parents own the land does not entitle you to a carte blanche planning anywhere you feel like it on that land. Most county development plans do have a clause that favours offspring building on family land - but:

a. It does not guarantee it. Especially if offspring are not working or living in the area anymore.

b. The planners will look for a map of the entire farm and tell you to build elsewhere on it if they don't like the site you've chosen. This could be a particular problem for you wanting to build way back in the fields!



With regards to your access roadway you are in a nuanced situation and this is where you need to help of a professional. Firstly you can't extinguish a right of way without both parties agreeing, but I'm not sure as you describe things an ROW exists. There are very specific rules with regards to protected structures. If the entrance way is of merit then it's very possible that the local authority wouldn't want you adjusting it to your whim. You would require planning for what you propose and they could refuse planning for any reason they like - not just because the other building is protected.


But at least you are asking the right questions now!!!!!! Get this stuff sorted before worrying about the position of the DPC in your ground floor slab!!!

briaineo

Metric Tensor wrote: »

Not necessarily from my experience. Just because your parents own the land does not entitle you to a carte blanche planning anywhere you feel like it on that land. Most county development plans do have a clause that favours offspring building on family land - but:

a. It does not guarantee it. Especially if offspring are not working or living in the area anymore.

b. The planners will look for a map of the entire farm and tell you to build elsewhere on it if they don't like the site you've chosen. This could be a particular problem for you wanting to build way back in the fields!



With regards to your access roadway you are in a nuanced situation and this is where you need to help of a professional. Firstly you can't extinguish a right of way without both parties agreeing, but I'm not sure as you describe things an ROW exists. There are very specific rules with regards to protected structures. If the entrance way is of merit then it's very possible that the local authority wouldn't want you adjusting it to your whim. You would require planning for what you propose and they could refuse planning for any reason they like - not just because the other building is protected.


But at least you are asking the right questions now!!!!!! Get this stuff sorted before worrying about the position of the DPC in your ground floor slab!!!

Thanks

Just on the rural links criteria this is met the planning application has certain criteria one must meet. These are most definitely met and clarified at pre-planning meeting. They can refuse on other grounds as we all know well but not on the rural links criteria on this application. There rules are actually quite strict think it was 7 years one had to have resided to pass the criteria.

But I do take your point if they do have an issue with a proposed location they can tell you to build somewhere else on the land.

I don't think removing the right of way would be an issue between family but as you said this could be stopped by the planners.

The main entrance to a house surely would have a right of way? Yes?

Would be great if it didn't, I didn't explain to the planners that the entrance is not used as the main vehicular access point for main house just suggested if they were to use a different entrance which they do as is.

Wasn't sure what I should or shouldnt be saying so said nothing!

Angry bird

I don't see why you'd have to remove a right-of-way for planning purposes, protected structure or otherwise. Rural linkage and housing need is what I look for at pre-planning, before moving onto site specifics. Instead of looking at widening a whole long length of road or driveway, consider strengthening/improving it where necessary and adding a couple of passing bays at suitable points, as in one vehicle pulls in while the other drives past, save a fair amount of cash and time. When you have more details done, like a house sketch, rough site layout, trial hole tests etc, go back for a follow up pre-planning for feedback. Did they advice on whether they were looking for some sort of report re the protected structure and its grounds? If so, apply for a section 57 declaration, it's free, and you get a full list of what is and what is not protected, you know where you stand then re you proposals.

Metric Tensor

I think you may be misusing the term Right-Of-Way. An ROW is a legal right for one person to pass through someone else's land. If I am correct in your case the driveway to the protected structure is all on your father-in-law's land and hence it is merely a driveway. It is not a right of way because he doesn't need special permission to drive through his own land.

So what you are proposing is that he give you a portion of the land that contains this driveway and you use it for your new house. In order to pretend to the council that you won't be generating any extra traffic at this exit you propose to close of this means of access to the protected structure. Firstly the driveway may also be protected and secondly even if it isn't the planners may still decide not to allow you to follow through on this plan because they think it is inappropriate.

I can't give you any specific advice on this because I'm not familiar with the land in question. Mind you if this protected structure has a nice entrance gate and a lovely tree lined avenue I'll come down and stop you myself if you ruin it!!!! ;-)

briaineo

I'll look into the declaration 57.

I'm probably getting mixed up with the right of way terminology.

Also I should say when I driveway its not the typical driveway you might picture. It is essentially a track that's been laid 100+ year ago, barely visable but it the there and is solid. its not lined with trees on anything like that but has a cluster of trees nearish to the gate. The main house is in no way visable from gates just fields of grass.

I might also add that I wouldn't bother widening it for the likes of my own cars but only for access for concrete, blocks etc for the build.

The issue the council have is: the gates on paper are the entrance to the main house on the lands (1km away) although not used. Only 1 dwelling allowed to use.

So if I was to begin using the gates it would increase the traffic use onto the strategic regional road. As it stands they have it down as an entrance for use by only one house. I wanted to change this/leave the rate of traffic the same as they have on paper but change the traffic use only to my new house.

The council say that any changing an entrance is modifying it and against their strategic plan.

If there was no other site available this would not be an issue as 4 houses less than 1km down the road use the same entrance and the sightlines wouldnt be as good as what we have clear 150m in each direction no bends or ridges. But because they have no other site planning granted no issues!

They have said if I use the entrance 700-800m away no problem.

Another option I have is to just apply and get planning without the added hassle of access by using the other entrance and then just use the one I want! There would be no difference in any of the ground works as it is still the same driveway as it runs directly to both entrances, would only mean I'd turn right instead of left.

But some mentioned that this could have mortgage implications.