Race wheels and bike brand compatibility

MalDoc

Hi All,

Is this something to consider when looking at wheels?

As in, Felt bike, only compatible with Reynolds, etc....

Is there anything else to consider?

I have ~10 gears on my back wheel buy the same for new wheels.

Thanks.

griffin100

It's not a question of bike and wheel brand comparability. It's all about the hub type. Check if your freehub is shimano or campag - it'll more than likely be shimano - and this is where the comparability lies. Any brand of wheel with the right hub will fit your bikes running gear.

You can swap your old cassette onto your new wheel; or you can buy a new cassette. If buying a new cassette make sure it has the same number of rings as the old one so there will be no issues in putting the new set up on the bike. As cassettes have a finite life a new one with new wheels is a good idea. Its also a good opportunity to make sure you have a cassette range that suits your needs.

MalDoc

griffin100 wrote: »

It's not a question of bike and wheel brand comparability. It's all about the hub type. Check if your freehub is shimano or campag - it'll more than likely be shimano - and this is where the comparability lies. Any brand of wheel with the right hub will fit your bikes running gear.

You can swap your old cassette onto your new wheel; or you can buy a new cassette. If buying a new cassette make sure it has the same number of rings as the old one so there will be no issues in putting the new set up on the bike. As cassettes have a finite life a new one with new wheels is a good idea. Its also a good opportunity to make sure you have a cassette range that suits your needs.

Thank you very much. Was looking at wheels earlier and was proper frazzled

Cheers!

MalDoc

griffin100 wrote: »

It's not a question of bike and wheel brand comparability. It's all about the hub type. Check if your freehub is shimano or campag - it'll more than likely be shimano - and this is where the comparability lies. Any brand of wheel with the right hub will fit your bikes running gear.

You can swap your old cassette onto your new wheel; or you can buy a new cassette. If buying a new cassette make sure it has the same number of rings as the old one so there will be no issues in putting the new set up on the bike. As cassettes have a finite life a new one with new wheels is a good idea. Its also a good opportunity to make sure you have a cassette range that suits your needs.

I'll probably have a few more questions for you tomorrow if that's alright.

This is actually very technical.

griffin100

My knowledge is pretty basic but fire away (there are more experienced bike people than me here!!)

MalDoc

griffin100 wrote: »

My knowledge is pretty basic but fire away (there are more experienced bike people than me here!!)

Right so,

I have a "Shimano 11-25T cassette" - I take this to mean, Shimano Hub, 11 rings, 25 teeth per ring?

The groupset is Shimano as well it seems.

What wheels would this have you looking at?

cjt156

11-25 corresponds to the number of teeth on the smallest and largest sprocket respectively.
So 11 on the small one; 25 on the big.

joey100

The 11-25 means you have a cassette that has a range between 11-25. What you need to find out is how many sprockets there are on the cassette. Count how many rings are on the cassette, not the teeth on the rings but the individual rings. Most newer bikes would have 10 or 11, this will tell you if your bike is 10 speed (if there is 10 rings) or 11 speed (if there is eleven rings). If it's an older bike it may be 8 or 9 speed. Do you have a link to the exact bike you bought??

pgibbo

Just a some things to keep in mind when buying wheels:

SRAM/Shimano vs Campag
What speed the wheel is for and what your bike is (9, 10 or 11)
If you have a TT bike with integrated brakes ensure the wheel will fit (only an issue for wider wheels like Flo and some others)
Braking surface on the wheels - if it's carbon you need different brake pads

griffin100

These links might help explain some of the terminology:

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/article/buyers-guide-to-road-bike-groupsets-41610/

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/videos/cycling-tech/road-bike-groupsets-buyers-guide

Re. what wheels to buy, that's a very wide question It all comes down to how much you are willing to spend and what type of riding / racing you do. There are hundreds of options.

peter kern

another thing to consider is that training wheel and racing wheel have a simialr rim width if you like simple wheel swaps ( especially for hidden rear breaks thats important.

also important to buy the right chain for the cassette you use
ie a 9 speed cassette does not worl well with a 10 speed chain ( it works but its annoying )

pgibbo wrote: »

Just a some things to keep in mind when buying wheels:

SRAM/Shimano vs Campag
What speed the wheel is for and what your bike is (9, 10 or 11)
If you have a TT bike with integrated brakes ensure the wheel will fit (only an issue for wider wheels like Flo and some others)
Braking surface on the wheels - if it's carbon you need different brake pads

MalDoc

Cheers lads, I think my head just exploded.

I'll have to think about this.

sconhome

I may be overstepping the mark.

Have you the technical ability to change cassettes without making a mess of it or dropping a spacer ring? If not I wouldn't be too worried about new race wheels as changing over could be the end of your race before you even start.

pgibbo

sconhome wrote: »

I may be overstepping the mark.

Have you the technical ability to change cassettes without making a mess of it or dropping a spacer ring? If not I wouldn't be too worried about new race wheels as changing over could be the end of your race before you even start.

I think something has been lost on me here? What has swapping wheels got to do with changing a cassette? If both sets of wheels have the same or similar gearing then there's no need to be able to change a cassette. You just swap the wheels. Or did I miss something?

sconhome

Talking about moving cassette from one wheel to the other. Unless a full wheel and cassette set-up is bought it will need to be done.

tunney

pgibbo wrote: »

I think something has been lost on me here? What has swapping wheels got to do with changing a cassette? If both sets of wheels have the same or similar gearing then there's no need to be able to change a cassette. You just swap the wheels. Or did I miss something?

You don't just swap wheels. If you train on a chain and a cassette they get worn in tandem. If you mismatch the level of wear significantly you get an situation where the chain and cassette will not longer "gel" and you get chain suck, noise, increased friction meaning more losses to the drivetrain and wastage.

Its even worse if the bike the race wheels are being used on is a racing and training bike.

MalDoc

sconhome wrote: »

I may be overstepping the mark.

Have you the technical ability to change cassettes without making a mess of it or dropping a spacer ring? If not I wouldn't be too worried about new race wheels as changing over could be the end of your race before you even start.

Something like this is what I wanted to avoid as it would be very tedious.

So, current plan is:

Race wheels the same width, same skewer type.
Same braking surface.
Same cassette attached to both.
As straight forward a swap as possible.

sconhome

See Tunney post above ^^ re wear on the chain and cassette before you decide anything.

griffin100

The simplest solution is to buy a race day bike for racing on with a nice set of wheels, and keep the current bike as your trainer. You can never have too many bikes

MalDoc

griffin100 wrote: »

The simplest solution is to buy a race day bike for racing on with a nice set of wheels, and keep the current bike as your trainer. You can never have too many bikes

It's looking like that

pgibbo

tunney wrote: »

You don't just swap wheels. If you train on a chain and a cassette they get worn in tandem. If you mismatch the level of wear significantly you get an situation where the chain and cassette will not longer "gel" and you get chain suck, noise, increased friction meaning more losses to the drivetrain and wastage.

Its even worse if the bike the race wheels are being used on is a racing and training bike.

If you monitor chain wear and stretch with one of the tools how much of an issue is this if you just swap wheels in for race day? What's the cost in real terms - say over 180km?

tunney

pgibbo wrote: »

If you monitor chain wear and stretch with one of the tools how much of an issue is this if you just swap wheels in for race day? What's the cost in real terms - say over 180km?

I cannot quantify exactly but I would not do it.

Losses to drive train are from 2-3 to 6-7% of power generated, good drivetrain setup to bad.

A powertab (or neo/computrainer) and a SRM/P2M (note not stages) would show you your losses and then you could quantify improvements.

Say was an extra 4% for an inefficient drivetrain. 220s produced, 210 hits the rear wheel.... What would you do for 10 watts?

mirrormatrix

tunney wrote: »

You don't just swap wheels. If you train on a chain and a cassette they get worn in tandem. If you mismatch the level of wear significantly you get an situation where the chain and cassette will not longer "gel" and you get chain suck, noise, increased friction meaning more losses to the drivetrain and wastage.

Its even worse if the bike the race wheels are being used on is a racing and training bike.

Not sure I fully agree with this. I mean, I agree that chain and cassette wear in tandem to a certain extent, but I don't think that swapping out wheels while using the same chain will have any negative impact.

For example, typically you change the chain 2-3 times per cassette change as the chain stretches faster than the cassette wears out. When doing this, (I don't think!) changing the chain while keeping the same cassette increases the chance of slippage or loss in power.

Am open to being proven wrong on this however..

tunney

mirrormatrix wrote: »

Not sure I fully agree with this. I mean, I agree that chain and cassette wear in tandem to a certain extent, but I don't think that swapping out wheels while using the same chain will have any negative impact.

For example, typically you change the chain 2-3 times per cassette change as the chain stretches faster than the cassette wears out. When doing this, (I don't think!) changing the chain while keeping the same cassette increases the chance of slippage or loss in power.

Am open to being proven wrong on this however..

Fair enough, whatever you reckon.

peter kern

pgibbo wrote: »

If you monitor chain wear and stretch with one of the tools how much of an issue is this if you just swap wheels in for race day? What's the cost in real terms - say over 180km?

if the chain is not worn out and well cleaned very little.
at the same time before an A race i would put on a new chain
and after some time a race cassette becomes a training cassette
and I ride a 55 chainring so i use most of the time gears that use more teath ( the 11 and 12 tooh wear out more quickly if you use them often and also give the chain a bit more stress.
and of coruse out of 9 gear chain you get more milage than out of 10 and 11
also you tend to get a git bit more out of shimano chain and casstte than sram chain (sram is lighter )

MalDoc

Kind of feel like I've opened a can of worms here but some really great stuff for a novice like myself to digest.

Ideal world, separate bike and wheels for race day but I just can't justify that sort of purchase. I could decide after a bad race this year that I'm done as I don't think I've ever put as much effort into a sport before and have form for getting bored and quitting.

I'm going to opt for a new chain, wheels and tyres for my A race.

I've a Felt B12, what wheels would you buy if in my position?

I would like to stick with an aluminum braking surface too as I think I would seriously injure myself if I had carbon.

Thanks,

joey100

What's your budget? How is your bike handling?

MalDoc

joey100 wrote: »

What's your budget? How is your bike handling?

Hi Joey, around 1500. Dry roads quite good. Brutal when it rains, I lose all nerve on corners.

joey100

That's decent budget, should be able to get a good set of wheels for it. Only asking about bike handling because the better your bike handling the deeper you can go on the front, the front is usually more twitchy in wind. I wouldn't be the best bike handler or have the best confidence on the bike so I stick to a 40mm in the front and find it grand.

Swiss side wheels seem to do well in testing and have an aluminium braking surface.

http://www.swissside.com/shop/category/hadron-collection/

Can mix and match the wheels too, so could get a 625 in the front and a 800+ in the back. Ship from the EU too so no customs charges.

Maybe a set of zipp 60's, use older zipp technologies but have the aluminium braking rim and zipps would generally be well regarded wheels.


Other wheels in that budget may be FLO wheels, come direct from America so customs and duty can rise the price, Fast forward wheels, no experience with these wheels, or Mavic, again no experience with their deeper wheels.

Have you figured out what speed your bike is? Just make sure what ever wheels you order are compatible with the speed of your bike.

MalDoc

joey100 wrote: »

That's decent budget, should be able to get a good set of wheels for it. Only asking about bike handling because the better your bike handling the deeper you can go on the front, the front is usually more twitchy in wind. I wouldn't be the best bike handler or have the best confidence on the bike so I stick to a 40mm in the front and find it grand.

Swiss side wheels seem to do well in testing and have an aluminium braking surface.

http://www.swissside.com/shop/category/hadron-collection/

Can mix and match the wheels too, so could get a 625 in the front and a 800+ in the back. Ship from the EU too so no customs charges.

Maybe a set of zipp 60's, use older zipp technologies but have the aluminium braking rim and zipps would generally be well regarded wheels.


Other wheels in that budget may be FLO wheels, come direct from America so customs and duty can rise the price, Fast forward wheels, no experience with these wheels, or Mavic, again no experience with their deeper wheels.

Have you figured out what speed your bike is? Just make sure what ever wheels you order are compatible with the speed of your bike.

They sound like a serious set of wheels. Can't say I've heard of that brand before.

I'll go with the 625 and 800+ as you suggested.

I've selected, shimano for hub type.

10 speed Shimano compatible freehub body & light weight Felt quick release....

joey100

They are shimano 8,9,10,11 speed compatabile so your bike will be covered by them. Google them first to read a few reviews and see what you think, others might have suggestions too on other suitable wheels.

tunney

Spade a spade time.

• You have no clue what return in terms of speed and performance new wheels will get you.
• You have no understanding of what a cassette is never mind changing them.
• You have no understanding of how a poorly maintained drivetrain will affect performance
• You, and it appears everyone else including the mighty German, have no idea about how to maintain a drivetrain
• Most importantly you do not know if you going to stay in the sport as you" have form for getting bored and quitting"

Are €1500 wheels really a good idea?

MalDoc

tunney wrote: »

Spade a spade time.

• You have no clue what return in terms of speed and performance new wheels will get you.
• You have no understanding of what a cassette is never mind changing them.
• You have no understanding of how a poorly maintained drivetrain will affect performance
• You, and it appears everyone else including the mighty German, have no idea about how to maintain a drivetrain
• Most importantly you do not know if you going to stay in the sport as you" have form for getting bored and quitting"

Are €1500 wheels really a good idea?

Have you seen how shiny they look?

MalDoc

joey100 wrote: »

They are shimano 8,9,10,11 speed compatabile so your bike will be covered by them. Google them first to read a few reviews and see what you think, others might have suggestions too on other suitable wheels.

Ordered. Thanks for your help.

Kurt_Godel

tunney wrote: »

• You have no understanding of how a poorly maintained drivetrain will affect performance
• You, and it appears everyone else including the mighty German, have no idea about how to maintain a drivetrain

There's very little chatter on this forum about bike maintainance (and how lack of same affects performance). Its often easier to assume spending $$$ will make us faster. Think you mentioned to me about a 3-4% drop in performance when you first saw my manky chain, but that penny only dropped above when you asked pgibbo what he would do to get 10W...

New chain ordered. Keep calling a spade a spade.

tunney

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

There's very little chatter on this forum about bike maintainance (and how lack of same affects performance). Its often easier to assume spending $$$ will make us faster. Think you mentioned to me about a 3-4% drop in performance when you first saw my manky chain, but that penny only dropped above when you asked pgibbo what he would do to get 10W...

New chain ordered. Keep calling a spade a spade.

I have research papers I purchased on the impacts of chain preparation on loses to drivetrains, interesting - and surprising - results. I'll dig out and send on the Clif notes version to Gibbo and yourself.

mirrormatrix

tunney wrote: »

I have research papers I purchased on the impacts of chain preparation on loses to drivetrains, interesting - and surprising - results. I'll dig out and send on the Clif notes version to Gibbo and yourself.

Have been reading up on this and was surprised to discover the results, 3-5 % power loss from what I have read. This is much larger than I would have expected.

I guess it all depends what end of the field you're at really. I think i'd happily accept these losses for the sake of the hassle of having a dedicated training/race setup, but then i'm so cheap that I haven't yet bought a TT bike after 4 seasons of racing. If you're in or around top 20 in races, I guess 3 % power loss is a massive deal.

MalDoc

Lads, I have free bike servicing for life. It's not a concern.

tunney

mirrormatrix wrote: »

Have been reading up on this and was surprised to discover the results, 3-5 % power loss from what I have read. This is much larger than I would have expected.

I guess it all depends what end of the field you're at really. I think i'd happily accept these losses for the sake of the hassle of having a dedicated training/race setup, but then i'm so cheap that I haven't yet bought a TT bike after 4 seasons of racing. If you're in or around top 20 in races, I guess 3 % power loss is a massive deal.

You don't need a dedicated training/race setup - just to maintain your gear and look after it.

tunney

MalDoc wrote: »

Lads, I have free bike servicing for life. It's not a concern.

Then you will be losing more than the 4% or so. Free bike servicing == sh1t bike servicing.

mloc123

tunney wrote: »

Then you will be losing more than the 4% or so. Free bike servicing == sh1t bike servicing.

Hahaha... I wonder what shop that service is in... also, I would expect each free service to cost 100e or more in 'parts'.

Edit: The free servicing offer is clever marketing tho, keeps people coming back and paying way over the odds for chains, brake pads, cassettes etc.. that they would buy online and fit themselves (with the most basic bike maintenance knowledge) for half the price.

MalDoc

All right, this has descended into a topic I have zero interest in. I only wanted to find out what wheels to buy for my bike. Job done.

mirrormatrix

tunney wrote: »

You don't need a dedicated training/race setup - just to maintain your gear and look after it.

But if these figures hold true, then ideally if you want to do a turbo session you should:

a) switch the tyre on your existing wheel to a trainer tyre
b) Have a dedicated turbo wheel and change the chain out each time so you are always pairing the same chain with the same cassette

I maintain my bike pretty well, but till now I have been operating on the principle that at 0.5 % wear I change the chain out, and change the cassette once every two chains. I guess that for optimal efficiency you should change the cassette each time you change the chain?

peter kern

tunney wrote: »

I have research papers I purchased on the impacts of chain preparation on loses to drivetrains, interesting - and surprising - results. I'll dig out and send on the Clif notes version to Gibbo and yourself.

the thing here is dave you have to stay a bit real here that for a guy that knows nothing aobut wheels you make it way to complicated

joey gave him useful advise.

and with all your extra info what s likey going to happen is a scenario like you had before roth that you got eaten up decing on wheel choice
paralysis by overanalysis


if you gain 7 watts but dont sleep for a few days you lose watts...


its not alwayas 7 watts save 7 watts. in my case i often would not go to a trainign race if i was to prepare the bike as i should
as it annoys me and takes the fun away.


ps we agree on that i would not give my bike to a mecahnic either ;-)

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

the thing here is dave you have to stay a bit real here that for a guy that knows nothing aobut wheels you make it way to complicated

I did - don't get the wheels.

peter kern wrote: »

joey gave him useful advise.

Joey is a sound lad.

peter kern wrote: »

and with all your extra info what s likey going to happen is a scenario like you had before roth that you got eaten up decing on wheel choice
paralysis by overanalysis

You know as well as I do that before Roth Cyclesuperstore broke my disc, hence the wheel choice issue.

peter kern wrote: »

if you gain 7 watts but dont sleep for a few days you lose watts...

Goes without saying that sleep is the most important thing

peter kern wrote: »

its not alwayas 7 watts save 7 watts. in my case i often would not go to a trainign race if i was to prepare the bike as i should
as it annoys me and takes the fun away.

Who said *anything* about doing all this before a training race? One, maybe two races a year would be all I would be ar$ed doing any of this for.

peter kern wrote: »

ps we agree on that i would not give my bike to a mecahnic either ;-)

Yup - the best investment you can make in the free speed from your bike is excellent quality tools. Have a nicely running drivetrain, perfectly tuned gears and superb brakes and then you are laughing.

mossym

train all year on whatever wheelset/chain combo makes sense, as long as the chain doesn't stretch beyond accptable limits, and you know enough to keep it running smoothly and no cross chaining

2 weeks before the A race, new chain and cassette. full bike service. new tires, brake pads

last 2 weeks of prep rides are on full race gear. then making sure everything is 100% with the new bits.

course all this assumes you can do the work yourself and trust your work. no way would i hand my bike to a shop two weeks before a big race

if not aiming for an A race, and doing multiple races, do this prior to the first race and maintain your bike properly over the summer.

works for me