Is it 2008 all over again?

thelad95

http://m.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2016/0113/759946-gaa-president-new-champions-structure-division-4/

Aogan O'Fearghail must have a very short memory. In 2008, this exact format was tried out where division 4 teams go straight into the Tommy Murphy cup and it was a resounding failure. Only a handful of teams took it seriously and many players chose to travel instead of committing to this. The exact same thing will happen if this is put in place.

It's also not fair on Division 3 teams who were similarly uncompetitive last summer. While most would agree a B championship should be put in place this is not the answer.

Fr Tod Umptious

thelad95 wrote: »

http://m.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2016/0113/759946-gaa-president-new-champions-structure-division-4/

Aogan O'Fearghail must have a very short memory. In 2008, this exact format was tried out where division 4 teams go straight into the Tommy Murphy cup and it was a resounding failure. Only a handful of teams took it seriously and many players chose to travel instead of committing to this. The exact same thing will happen if this is put in place.

It's also not fair on Division 3 teams who were similarly uncompetitive last summer. While most would agree a B championship should be put in place this is not the answer.

I think it was 2007 that it was first introduced.

The problem that year as that plucky Wicklow, under Micko, went on a bit of a run and it suddenly dawned on everyone that once they lost they would not be in the qualifiers unlike some of the teams they had already beaten.

If there is to be a second tier championship make it that teams are there from the start, not placed their once they get knocked out of the first tier championship.

Dirty Dingus McGee

It's a completely rubbish suggestion to improve the championship as it failed already.The championship needs a complete restructuring not a minor tweak.Just shows you why the situation has developed in the first place when you have people without any vision like O'Fergahail as the figure head of the association.

Mehapoy

thelad95 wrote: »

http://m.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2016/0113/759946-gaa-president-new-champions-structure-division-4/

Aogan O'Fearghail must have a very short memory. In 2008, this exact format was tried out where division 4 teams go straight into the Tommy Murphy cup and it was a resounding failure. Only a handful of teams took it seriously and many players chose to travel instead of committing to this. The exact same thing will happen if this is put in place.

It's also not fair on Division 3 teams who were similarly uncompetitive last summer. While most would agree a B championship should be put in place this is not the answer.

For some reason the GAA are incapable of sitting down with all stakeholders and hammering out a season and a structure that even 80% suits most, instead they fcuk around with losres groups, play offs, prelimary rounds etc. etc. The structure they are presenting is identical to the one they proposed before and didn't work so why would it work now?
The provincial round Robin idea had merit(each team in a group of 3) at least it treats everybody the same and everybody starts at roughly the same point, apart from provincial standards differing. Then go into a graded championship dependent on your championship performance, not on league.
The con they had with it was new York wouldn't be able to fulfil 3 fixtures! How in fcuk are they in the championship then? Either they're in it fully or out fully, talk about a farce!

Dots1982

He wants teams in the division 4 to enter their own championship once beaten in the province....eh like they have their own championship..it's called division 4.

What absolute nonsense.

Boom__Boom

Division 4 teams played 116 championship games in the 6 year period from 2010 to 2015

They lost 80 of these game drew 4 and won 32.

At first glance 32 games won doesn't look too bad.

However when you look at who the wins came against, things look a lot more of an issue.

2 of those wins came against New York who don't compete in the league.
17 of those wins came against other Division 4 teams.
8 came against Division 3 teams.
4 came against Division 2 teams.
1 came against a Division 1 team.

Overall 116 championship games and 5 wins against top 16 teams.

Most of the championship games involving Division 4 teams aren't even competitive - the average losing margin for the 18 games involving Division 4 teams last year was 10 points.

Throw in the fact that you had the Longford manager saying last week that 44% of the players invited to be part of the Longford football turned him down, it's clear something had to done.

Personally I think this is going to be just a stop-gap measure - it would protect Division 4 teams a bit more from the risk of getting two bad beatings in the one year and give them games that are that bit more competitive.

I also think Division 4 counties are going to be a lot more realistic now about a secondary competition than they were in 2007 when a lot of weakest counties still had the notion that with a bit of luck they might have a chance of going on bit of a championship run. You've had a number of managers and officials from these bottom-tier counties saying that the present championship structure with the qualifiers is doing nothing for them in the last year or two.

On it's own it's not going to solve all the issues but it would be a slightly better structure than the current one. I still get the feeling that too many insiders in the GAA organisation are too wedded to the provincial structure which is a completely out-dated structure nowadays.

Mehapoy

Boom__Boom wrote: »

Division 4 teams played 116 championship games in the 6 year period from 2010 to 2015

They lost 80 of these game drew 4 and won 32.

At first glance 32 games won doesn't look too bad.

However when you look at who the wins came against, things look a lot more of an issue.

2 of those wins came against New York who don't compete in the league.
17 of those wins came against other Division 4 teams.
8 came against Division 3 teams.
4 came against Division 2 teams.
1 came against a Division 1 team.

Overall 116 championship games and 5 wins against top 16 teams.

Most of the championship games involving Division 4 teams aren't even competitive - the average losing margin for the 18 games involving Division 4 teams last year was 10 points.

Throw in the fact that you had the Longford manager saying last week that 44% of the players invited to be part of the Longford football turned him down, it's clear something had to done.

Personally I think this is going to be just a stop-gap measure - it would protect Division 4 teams a bit more from the risk of getting two bad beatings in the one year and give them games that are that bit more competitive.

I also think Division 4 counties are going to be a lot more realistic now about a secondary competition than they were in 2007 when a lot of weakest counties still had the notion that with a bit of luck they might have a chance of going on bit of a championship run. You've had a number of managers and officials from these bottom-tier counties saying that the present championship structure with the qualifiers is doing nothing for them in the last year or two.

On it's own it's not going to solve all the issues but it would be a slightly better structure than the current one. I still get the feeling that too many insiders in the GAA organisation are too wedded to the provincial structure which is a completely out-dated structure nowadays.

The problem with that is, as the example from 2007 showed, what if Wicklow go on a run and get to a Leinster 1/4 or 1/2 final, you then have a situation where the play Meath who are div2, if Meath lose they stay in the qualifiers but if Wicklow lose they are out if the championship with no second chance, just because they are in div4...totally unfair that teams have vastly different outputs from losing the same March

Cosmo Kramer

Very disappointing reading. This is a terrible proposal overall. If this is the best alternative they can come up with I'd rather they just left things the way they are.

At Pairc an Chrócaigh today a meeting of Ard Chomhairle decided to include the following motion relating to the structures of the GAA Football Senior Championship structures on the Clár for Congress in Carlow next month:

(1) All counties will take part in their respective Provincial Championships.
(2) The teams that are placed in Division IV at the conclusion of the National Football League will play in their Provincial Championship only. They will also participate in an All-Ireland Senior ‘B’ Football Championship, which will be played on a straight knock out basis. The winners of the All-Ireland ‘B’ Football Championship will be guaranteed a place in the following year’s All-Ireland Football Qualifiers.
(3) The winners of the Provincial Championships will progress directly to the All-Ireland Quarter-finals. The losers of the Provincial Finals will play in Round Three of the All-Ireland Football Qualifiers.
(4) The 16 teams who do not reach the Provincial Final and who are not eligible for the All-Ireland B championship will play in Round One of the All-Ireland Qualifiers. This will be an open draw.
(5) The eight winners of Round One of the All-Ireland Qualifier will play in Round Two.
(6) In Round Three of the All-Ireland Qualifier, the four winners from Round Two will play the four Provincial Final losers.
(7) In the All-Ireland Football Quarter-finals the four Provincial Final winners will play the Round Three winners.
(8) In Rounds One and Two of the All-Ireland Qualifiers, where teams from Division II, III or IV are drawn against a team from a higher division, the team from the lower Division will automatically have home advantage.

Notes:
(1) In the event of this proposal being accepted, ways of making the All-Ireland Senior B Championship attractive to participating can be considered.
(2) If the winners of the All-Ireland ‘B’ Football Championship do not win promotion from Division IV in the National Football League of the following year, they will be replaced in the All-Ireland ‘B’ Championship by the lowest placed Division III team (other than the two relegated teams) at the end of that year’s National Football League that has not reached its Provincial Finals.
(3) Where a team(s) from Division IV reaches its Provincial Final, the lowest placed team at the conclusion of the National Football League in Division III (team that finishes sixth or fifth) that has been eliminated from the Provincial Championship, will play in the All-Ireland ‘B’ Football Championship to ensure a complement of eight teams.

A number of counties will also submit other motions to Congress relating to proposed structural changes to the senior football Championships.

Player Burnout Document

Further to the discussion document which was circulated in November, and which outlined proposals to address the overtraining, player-burnout and fixtures-scheduling issues facing the Association, meetings were held with county officers. As a result of feedback from the meetings and from others, amendments have been made to three of the original 11 proposals that will go before Congress and Central Council for decision. These amendments were presented to Central Council at its meeting today.

U21 Football Championship

The discussion paper proposed that the U21 football championship be discontinued on the basis that the elite U21 footballer would no longer have the added pressure of playing in, and training for, third-level championships, inter-county U21 level and, in some instances, senior inter-county level all at the same time. However, the consultation process and other feedback revealed a concern at the gap that would be created in an elite football player’s development pathway by ending age-based inter-county competition at U17. As a result, we have produced a revised proposal to create a developmental U20 championship that would eliminate some of the difficulties currently facing elite players in the U21 grade.

The revised proposal envisages a new U20 football championship to be played midweek in June and July from 2018. Under the rules, all games would finish on the day – there will be no replays. Extra time, if inconclusive, would be followed by a ‘sudden death’ free-taking competition. Eligibility would be restricted to those players who are over-age for U18 and eligible for U20; players who have featured on a team list submitted to a referee for an inter-county senior championship game in the current year will be ineligible to participate. If Congress accepts this proposal, Congress 2017 will be asked to remove the requirement of Rule 6.21 whereby players in underage championships are not expected to fulfil club championship fixtures within seven days of an inter-county championship game. This is to ensure that club championship matches would not be postponed because of participation in the U20 championship.

This proposal, with its eligibility restrictions, will: (i) meet the player-development need for an inter-county championship to bridge the gap between U17 and senior competition; (ii) avoid the simultaneous and intense pressures on players of coping with inter-county U21 competition and preparing for and sitting vital school and college examinations; (iii) end the clash between third-level, U21 and senior competitions; (iv) reduce the surfeit of competitions in the January-April period, and therefore the burden of too much training and too many matches for young elite players; (v) have no impact on the playing of minor club (U-18) competitions; (vi) have minimal impact on adult club championships, few of which games are played during June and July (vii) allow the competition to be played in the better weather of June and July.

Replays

The second major concern related to the abolition of all replays in provincial and All-Ireland senior championship games. While there was an acceptance of the impact of replays in provincial and All-Ireland senior championship games on club championship programmes, there was also a strongly expressed view that finals should be excluded from the proposal. There is no doubt that some of the opposition to the original proposal was partly dictated by financial concerns, but there was also a sentiment that the status of provincial and All-Ireland finals merit a replay when the first game ends in a draw. The revised proposal provides for replays in Provincial Senior and All-Ireland finals only – nine games in all - whereas there is, currently, potential for a replay in 54 matches after provincial and senior championship drawn games.

All-Ireland Junior Football Championship

Finally, the counties in Britain were unhappy with the proposal to abolish the All-Ireland Junior Football championship which, for most of their counties, is the only opportunity to compete for an All-Ireland title. A motion has been drafted that meets their need in this regard and that also has the potential to meet a developmental need for some of our less successful counties.

The other eight proposals will go forward to Congress and Central Council as outlined in the discussion document.

London GAA

In relation to the issue of the affiliation of the Irish Guards club, the meeting was told that the Ard Stiúrthóir had explained in a meeting with the Chairperson and Secretary of London County Committee and the Chairperson of Granuaile Hurling club that GAA rules do not allow for the proposed rescindment of the decision to approve its affiliation. Central Council will work with London County Committee and the Granuaile Hurling club to resolve issues or concerns arising from this affiliation.
***

Fr Tod Umptious

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

Very disappointing reading. This is a terrible proposal overall. If this is the best alternative they can come up with I'd rather they just left things the way they are.

Exactly.
This idea failed once before and I can't see it succeed this time either.

The GAA as a whole needs to look at the SFC and come with with some proper ideas.
Not this half baked BS.
Its as bad as the premilary losers to Connacht and Munster idea.

I just hope to God the Div 4 teams don't do something stupid and vote for this like they did in 2007.

Cosmo Kramer

Is there any hope of a way back from here for the Sean Kelly/Jim McGuinness proposal? It is by far the best all round solution I have seen so far and is miles better than the rubbish the CCCC have put forward.

Prop Joe

This i believe is the best system

Gives players plenty of games week in,week out.
Gives every team a realistic chance of making the final stages of the All Ireland
Makes the league hugely important as promotion/relegation has huge a bearing on championship
Makes the provincial trophy now more important to win (Finals will determine whether you stay in the championship,Get a weeks break and a bye to the QF or a dreaded 6 day turnaround)
No more safety net for the bigger teams in the weaker provinces


League stays as normal but no more league finals (Top team champion)
League then determines which route you take to the All Ireland
The 8 Div 1 teams are drawn together with 6 winners progressing to the last 16 of the All Ireland
The 8 Div 2 teams are drawn together with 3 winners progressing to the last 16 of the All Ireland
The 8 Div 3 teams are drawn together with 2 winners progressing to the last 16 of the All Ireland
The 8 Div 4 teams are drawn together with 1 winner progressing to the last 16 of the All Ireland
That qualifies 12 teams for the last 16
They are then joined by the 4 provincial winners to make up the last 16
If provincial winners are already qualified for the last 16 through the qualifiers they will receive a Bye to the quarter finals and earn a valuable week’s rest

Sample Calendar

March 13th - League rd.1
March 20th - League rd.2
March 27th
April 3rd - League rd.3
April 10th
April 17th - League rd.4
April 24th - League rd.5
May 1st
May 8th - League rd.6
May 15th - League rd.7
May 22nd
May 29th Provencial Pre-Lim
June 5th Provencial QF
June 12th Div 2 qualifier rd.1 Div 4 qualifier rd.1
June 19th Provencial Semi
June 26th qualifiers - Div 1 rd.1 Div 2 rd.2 Div 3 Rd.1 Div 4 rd.2
July 3rd qualifiers -Div 1 rd.2 Div 2 rd.3 Div 3 Rd.2 Div 4 rd.3
July 10th Provencial Final
July 17th AI Last 16
July 24th
July 31st AI QF
Aug 7th
Aug 14th AI Semi
Aug 21st
Aug 28th AI Final

theoneeyedman

Interesting.... How do you reduce the 8 D1 to just 6 etc after the leagues?
I've had a version of this rattling around the head for a whole but never took the time to tease out the intricacies of it. Either way, it's hard to see it getting agreement.

A lot of this seems to be being driven by tv/media not wanting to bother with the likes of Leitrim/Carlow etc.... No TV subscriptions to be sold if they have to be shown.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Prop Joe wrote: »

This i believe is the best system

Gives players plenty of games week in,week out.
Gives every team a realistic chance of making the final stages of the All Ireland
Makes the league hugely important as promotion/relegation has huge a bearing on championship
Makes the provincial trophy now more important to win (Finals will determine whether you stay in the championship,Get a weeks break and a bye to the QF or a dreaded 6 day turnaround)
No more safety net for the bigger teams in the weaker provinces


League stays as normal but no more league finals (Top team champion)
League then determines which route you take to the All Ireland
The 8 Div 1 teams are drawn together with 6 winners progressing to the last 16 of the All Ireland
The 8 Div 2 teams are drawn together with 3 winners progressing to the last 16 of the All Ireland
The 8 Div 3 teams are drawn together with 2 winners progressing to the last 16 of the All Ireland
The 8 Div 4 teams are drawn together with 1 winner progressing to the last 16 of the All Ireland
That qualifies 12 teams for the last 16
They are then joined by the 4 provincial winners to make up the last 16
If provincial winners are already qualified for the last 16 through the qualifiers they will receive a Bye to the quarter finals and earn a valuable week’s rest

Sample Calendar

March 13th - League rd.1
March 20th - League rd.2
March 27th
April 3rd - League rd.3
April 10th
April 17th - League rd.4
April 24th - League rd.5
May 1st
May 8th - League rd.6
May 15th - League rd.7
May 22nd
May 29th Provencial Pre-Lim
June 5th Provencial QF
June 12th Div 2 qualifier rd.1 Div 4 qualifier rd.1
June 19th Provencial Semi
June 26th qualifiers - Div 1 rd.1 Div 2 rd.2 Div 3 Rd.1 Div 4 rd.2
July 3rd qualifiers -Div 1 rd.2 Div 2 rd.3 Div 3 Rd.2 Div 4 rd.3
July 10th Provencial Final
July 17th AI Last 16
July 24th
July 31st AI QF
Aug 7th
Aug 14th AI Semi
Aug 21st
Aug 28th AI Final

Looks like a good system.Everyone has a chance, you get most games between teams off even standard and the the league and championship is linked (as if you progress through the leagues you've a better chance of succeeding in the championship),provincial championship stay important, regular intervals between matches.Also it starts in March which gets rid of the need for ridiculous winter training and allows most football to be played in the late spring and summer.

Prop Joe

theoneeyedman wrote: »

Interesting.... How do you reduce the 8 D1 to just 6 etc after the leagues?

This would be a sample draw

8 teams in Div 1 (Open Draw)
Monaghan v Kerry
Donegal v Mayo
Derry v Cork
Dublin v Tyrone

4 winners progress to last 16

4 losers play off to determine the final 2 qualifiers


8 teams in Div 2 (Open Draw)

Ross v Westmeath
Meath v Cavan
Down v Laois
Kildare v Galway

4 winners progress to next round

Galway v Meath
Down v Ross

2 winners advance to the last 16
The 2 losers play off to capture the final spot

8 teams in Div 3 (Open Draw)

Sligo v Fermanagh
Armagh v Louth
Tipp v Wexford
Limerick v Clare

Simple: 4 winners play off to clinch the two spots

8 teams in Div 4 (Open Draw)

Longford v London
Offaly v Antrim
Leitrim v Wicklow
Carlow v Waterford

Teams play off with the last team gaining the final spot in the last 16

theoneeyedman wrote: »

A lot of this seems to be being driven by tv/media not wanting to bother with the likes of Leitrim/Carlow etc.... No TV subscriptions to be sold if they have to be shown.

I Agree 100% - alot of people would like a top 12 or 16 championship and to hell with everyone else.

I don't think anything should be as clear cut as just excluding the division 4 teams. Good teams or quickly developing teams can find themselves for one season in Division 4, get drawn against a Dublin or Kerry and that's it. Tipperary were Division 4 for a few years and look at the strides they have made. Say for example Longford were Division 2 in 2013 and last year bounced straight back up to Division 3 which is a competitive division. Clare made good headway in 2014 having come off Division 4 football.

The good and the bad of the championship at present is summed up by Longford. In many ways they had a good 2015 but were hammered twice. They had a very good win in Tullamore against Offaly, then get absolutely obliterated by Dublin before beating Carlow and Clare (away) to progress to play Kildare where they get another trimming, albeit far less than against Dublin.

Then there is teams like Carlow who have always been bottom half of Division 4. Seeing the trimmings they are getting by the likes of Laois would leave you worried for them if they ever ended up progressing to play the Dubs.

I honestly think the provincial championships have to be done away with before we have a chance of getting a suitable and equitable championship structure and I believe this won't happen for another couple of decades at least. There has always been a divide in quality between the top teams and others but the gaps between the various groupings of teams is getting bigger and bigger as the top sides get more and more professional.

I think we need an A and B championship but with spots allocated for teams in the B Championship to re-enter the A Championship at a later point.

Fr Tod Umptious

When you have a situation where a Div 2 team loses two games by an average of 23 points, I'm looking at you Kildare, how is excluding Div 4 teams from the qualifiers the solution?

klairondavis

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

When you have a situation where a Div 2 team loses two games by an average of 23 points, I'm looking at you Kildare, how is excluding Div 4 teams from the qualifiers the solution?

We're a Division 3 team. :P

Hammer Archer

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

When you have a situation where a Div 2 team loses two games by an average of 23 points, I'm looking at you Kildare, how is excluding Div 4 teams from the qualifiers the solution?

And a division 1 team lost to them by 8.

homerjay2005

Could they allow them in but also add a seperate championship (all Ireland senior B championship) for the first round losers?

Give them some incentive-overall winner gets home advantage for their games the following year, final played on all Ireland semi final day,winners/runners up get a holiday, winners get promotion to division 3 in league also etc etc

Fr Tod Umptious

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Could they allow them in but also add a seperate championship (all Ireland senior B championship) for the first round losers?

Give them some incentive-overall winner gets home advantage for their games the following year, final played on all Ireland semi final day,winners/runners up get a holiday, winners get promotion to division 3 in league also etc etc

That's what the original Tommy Murphy Cup was back in 2004 or so.
Teams that lost their first round qualifier went into it.

iDave

So what is the reason for the B comp?
Talk of it exploded after the Dublin/Longford game last year.
So is it to protect teams from such hammerings or bring them up to a higher level?
It wont protect teams from hammerings as they can still draw the big names in the provincial QF and I don't see how making Div 4 teams play a secondary competition against each other will improve them.
It'll give them the outlet to win a trophy alright but is it a trophy they want to win?
It may very well guarantee a team a place in the qualifiers the following year but then its at the expense of a Div 3 team which would of felt its done enough to be in the qualifiers.
As it is mid tier teams like Laois struggle to keep players interested for qualifiers so I cant see how footballers in hurling counties like Waterford will bother committing.

Also am I correct in saying there's no reward for making the provincial semi final? It says all teams that don't make the final go into round 1 of the qualifiers. That'll make early rounds of provincials irrelevant unless you actually make the final.

If it passes it lasting a few years before the same old arguments about structures, hammering etc crop up again.

HanaleiJ5N

Linking the league to the championship is a mistake and nothing more than a means to add importance to the league due to the perception teams don't take it seriously, but I don't think the league is at all a problem.

If (as is being sought under the current proposal) the league is used to determine who plays in what division then a number of counties lose their incentive once the league is over and their championship performance has no bearing over whether they play in the A or B championship format the following season.

The B championship would need genuine incentive, the best reward is automatic promotion to the 'A' Championship. Two finalists go up, and two teams relegated from A to B. Just like any county Senior and Intermediate championship, the Intermediate championship would be pointless without promotion.

Provincial championships? Run them off in May and June. If a B team wins a provincial championship, allow them entry into the last qualifier round of the A championship. But they also participate in the 'B' championship as normal.

Two tiers of 16 would make most sense but I can't imagine that would ever get past a vote.

A 24 / 8 divide is more likely, but that would be workable too. It could be almost identical to the format when the Tommy Murphy Cup existed, but just 6 extra games would be required. The two Murphy finalists would be promoted.

In the 'A championship, 16 teams go into Round 1 of qualifiers. The 8 defeated teams go into two rounds of relegation play offs. Round 1, 4 games, 4 winners retain 'A' status, 4 into relegation finals. Two winners stay up, two winners go down.

Not complicated at all, pretty much the same as when the Murphy Cup existed but with actual incentive for the 8 Murphy counties.

Mal-Adjusted

HanaleiJ5N wrote: »

Linking the league to the championship is a mistake and nothing more than a means to add importance to the league due to the perception teams don't take it seriously, but I don't think the league is at all a problem.

I wouldn't have a problem with it initially as a way to differentiate between a top 16 and bottom 16.

HanaleiJ5N wrote: »

The B championship would need genuine incentive, the best reward is automatic promotion to the 'A' Championship. Two finalists go up, and two teams relegated from A to B. Just like any county Senior and Intermediate championship, the Intermediate championship would be pointless without promotion.

agreed, but the B final would lose any importance if both teams go up. Maybe have the winner go up and the loser go into a promotion/relegation with a side who wins a similar play-off from the A championship?

HanaleiJ5N wrote: »

Provincial championships? Run them off in May and June. If a B team wins a provincial championship, allow them entry into the last qualifier round of the A championship. But they also participate in the 'B' championship as normal.

TBH, i'd untangle the provinces from the all-Ireland all-together. it's outdated and messy but the die-hards would never let them go.

HanaleiJ5N wrote: »

Two tiers of 16 would make most sense but I can't imagine that would ever get past a vote.

very true.

cms88

I don't understand why they are so against the idea of a B championship, not the one that's been talked about but in general.

Players from Longford etc came out before christmas saying things like , players don't train all year to play in a B championship etc But they hardly train all that time to get beat by 20 plus points in games. The old Tommy Murphy Cup was the same, they wouldn't play in that either and that was at a time when they were given two chances in the SFC! Then a few years after it stopped they complained about getting hammerings, in fact Waterford said all Div 4 teams should get to play at home in the qualifiers, then when its brought up they say they don't want it again!

What exactly is it they want? For the whole championship to be changed to make them happy? At the end of the day no matter what way it is, you're still going to have the same teams at the QF and SF stages of the championship.

What i also don't understand is how it can work in hurling. The gap between the top teams and the others is just as big and yet they're happy to be able to develop at their own level instead of wanting to play at a level they cant compete at.

Mal-Adjusted

cms88 wrote: »

Players from Longford etc came out before christmas saying things like , players don't train all year to play in a B championship etc

Funny how the Longford hurlers will train all year to play in a D championship.

bruschi

cms88 wrote: »

I don't understand why they are so against the idea of a B championship, not the one that's been talked about but in general.

Players from Longford etc came out before christmas saying things like , players don't train all year to play in a B championship etc But they hardly train all that time to get beat by 20 plus points in games. The old Tommy Murphy Cup was the same, they wouldn't play in that either and that was at a time when they were given two chances in the SFC! Then a few years after it stopped they complained about getting hammerings, in fact Waterford said all Div 4 teams should get to play at home in the qualifiers, then when its brought up they say they don't want it again!

What exactly is it they want? For the whole championship to be changed to make them happy? At the end of the day no matter what way it is, you're still going to have the same teams at the QF and SF stages of the championship.

What i also don't understand is how it can work in hurling. The gap between the top teams and the others is just as big and yet they're happy to be able to develop at their own level instead of wanting to play at a level they cant compete at.

It's not, it's no where near the same. The gap between the tenth/twelfth team in hurling is still a world away from a division 4 hurling team.

Even taking an example from last year, Wexford are now competing in Division 4 in football, and beat Down who are competing in Division 1. Waterford went from the second tier hurling to the top tier, and Donegal got relegated from the third tier. Would you ever foresee Donegal beating Waterford in hurling?

Carlow, Westmeath and Kerry are making good strides and are narrowing the gap to get back in touch with the likes of Offaly/Laois/Wexford who are at the tail end of the top tier teams, but they are still way off. Going past those 3, there is a massive gulf.

I agree in principle though, I think the championship needs to be restructured. How, I dont know, but it's not working as it is now.

Fr Tod Umptious

Thankfully this motion was withdrawn from congress today.
So they must have seen sense and knew it was never going to pass.