Cork Airport Runway Re-designation

lfc200

Hi All,

Just wondering has anyone heard about Cork Airport having to change their runway designators from 17/35 to 16/34?
Would something like this cause hassle for flight ops, flight crews etc? I'd have no idea myself!

John

Yes it's changing in April. It shouldn't cause significant issues other than pilots and ATC forgetting to call it 16 or 34 and referring to its old designator through habit.

Wise Old Elf

May be a stupid question but how does this come about?
Edit: as in I assume they're not doing anything physically to the runway bar putting new numbers on it?

Wise Old Elf

Wise Old Elf wrote: »

May be a stupid question but how does this come about?
Edit: as in I assume they're not doing anything physically to the runway bar putting new numbers on it?

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_24613702/earths-magnetic-shift-causes-first-change-runway-numbers

lfc200

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes it's changing in April. It shouldn't cause significant issues other than pilots and ATC forgetting to call it 16 or 34 and referring to its old designator through habit.

Thanks.. Can't say I had heard of this happening before so found it interesting!

Irish Steve

It's pretty rare, most places, depending on the rate of variation, it will be between 25 and 50 years before there's another change. With the number of airfields in Ireland that have approach procedures published, it's rare enough, though anyone still using paper approach plates will be in for a forest of paper in the month that it changes, and probably for several months after, as all the minor errors that slipped through the upgrade get corrected.

A long time ago now, the approach plate binders for the UK, Ireland and near continent was 2 binders each about 4 inches thick, and if there were changes in the Paris or London Area, that could result in a monthly update that was somewhere around an inch of replacements that has to be filed into the books, it was a PAIN of a job, but had to be done to keep the plates in synch with the actual procedures that were being used by the controllers.

The local users that are based at Cork, or regular visitors, will be the ones that will be more likely to get confused for a period of time, the airline users less so, as they are used to checking their plates or briefing information, and working from that, so if it's changed, some will notice it, some won't, as it's not a piece of information that tends to "stick" in the memory for infrequent visitors.

Lustrum

Southend changed their runways a couple of months back from 06/24 to 05/23. The ATIS was giving the new designators before they were official, and there was a NOTAM saying to ignore the ATIS designators. Then one day the NOTAM disappeared and our jepp plates were updated to runways 05/23 and hey presto!

As has been said, probably the biggest issue is calling the runway by the old designator for a while

Bsal

Manchester and Madrid comes to mind in recent years, well the last decade that have changed runway numbers.

EchoIndia

Changes that I can recall in my time include the following: DUB (06/24 became 05/23, 17/35 became 16/34 and 12/30 became 11/29), LHR (10/28 to 09/27), SNN (14/32 to 13/31) and STN (05/23 to 04/22).

kub

lfc200 wrote: »

Hi All,

Just wondering has anyone heard about Cork Airport having to change their runway designators from 17/35 to 16/34?
Would something like this cause hassle for flight ops, flight crews etc? I'd have no idea myself!

John

Does that mean that 25/07 will also be changed as the angle is constant?

JCX BXC

Hmm, Cork will be even more so at the brunt of South-Westerly wind. (With pilots limits calculations)

Bsal

Carnacalla wrote: »

Hmm, Cork will be even more so at the brunt of South-Westerly wind. (With pilots limits calculations)

Don't forget the magnetic variation also affects the wind readout given by the tower controller.

JCX BXC

Bsal wrote: »

Don't forget the magnetic variation also affects the wind readout given by the tower controller.

Aye but that's been a gradual change over 50+ years?

coylemj

I recall there was a similar change in EDI a few years back.

Gaoth Laidir

Bsal wrote: »

Don't forget the magnetic variation also affects the wind readout given by the tower controller.

But METAR reported wind directions are in degrees true, which I never really agreed with. Fine for somewhere like Dublin with just a 4 ° magnetic variation, but go to somewhere like Canada, where magnetic variation is tens of degrees, and this becomes a right pain in the ass.

Bsal

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

But METAR reported wind directions are in degrees true, which I never really agreed with. Fine for somewhere like Dublin with just a 4 ° magnetic variation, but go to somewhere like Canada, where magnetic variation is tens of degrees, and this becomes a right pain in the ass.

I know METAR wind is TRUE, I'm just saying the mag heading of the runway is only changing by 1 degree to 164 degrees and the anemometer only records to the nearest 10 degrees so the affect on wind calculations will be negligible.

Growler!!!

kub wrote: »

Does that mean that 25/07 will also be changed as the angle is constant?

Sure will, it will become 06/24.

Carnacalla wrote: »

Hmm, Cork will be even more so at the brunt of South-Westerly wind. (With pilots limits calculations)

Correct, especially as rwy25 was closed again yesterday (Monday)

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

But METAR reported wind directions are in degrees true, which I never really agreed with. Fine for somewhere like Dublin with just a 4 ° magnetic variation, but go to somewhere like Canada, where magnetic variation is tens of degrees, and this becomes a right pain in the ass.

In fairness Bsal did say reported by the tower controller so it will be passed over the radio in degrees magnetic.

Bsal wrote: »

I know METAR wind is TRUE, I'm just saying the mag heading of the runway is only changing by 1 degree to 164 degrees and the anemometer only records to the nearest 10 degrees so the affect on wind calculations will be negligible.

Negligible, but still significant if it's the difference between landing within limits or diverting.

JCX BXC

Growler!!! wrote: »

Correct, especially as rwy25 was closed again yesterday (Monday)

Why?

Do you have a NOTAM available?

Gaoth Laidir

I know Bsal said the tower report, I wasn't disputing him, I was referring to METARS and was just highlighting the effect of magnetic variation when it comes to flightplanning, etc.

Growler!!!

Carnacalla wrote: »

Why?

Do you have a NOTAM available?

Some form of maintanence is being carried out but I don't know the specifics. New notam today A0044/16 refers, closed daily between 9am and 6pm today and tomorrow.

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

I know Bsal said the tower report, I wasn't disputing him, I was referring to METARS and was just highlighting the effect of magnetic variation when it comes to flightplanning, etc.

The old saying still holds : what the weatherman tells you is TRUE.
I was pointing out that the tower passes the wind direction in degrees magnetic to allow easy calculation of crosswind. That fact hadn't been mentioned on thread yet.

Gaoth Laidir

Growler!!! wrote: »

Some form of maintanence is being carried out but I don't know the specifics. New notam today A0044/16 refers, closed daily between 9am and 6pm today and tomorrow.



The old saying still holds : what the weatherman tells you is TRUE.
I was pointing out that the tower passes the wind direction in degrees magnetic to allow easy calculation of crosswind. That fact hadn't been mentioned on thread yet.

Yes, but at non-towered airports with AWOS it can still be a problem to the uninitiated. No such problem in most of Europe, however, but with so many such airports in the USA it can be a problem, especially in the northwest.

BonkeyDonker

kub wrote: »

Does that mean that 25/07 will also be changed as the angle is constant?

Growler!!! wrote: »

Sure will, it will become 06/24.

It will not as the two runways are not exactly 90 degrees from each other.

Rwy 07/25 has a heading of 071/251 so will not need changing at this time.

Growler!!!

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Yes, but at non-towered airports with AWOS it can still be a problem to the uninitiated. No such problem in most of Europe, however, but with so many such airports in the USA it can be a problem, especially in the northwest.

That is true and again I'm not disputing your knowledge, however the subject under consideration in this thread is Cork. The change in runway designator due to magnetic variation will cause a reduction in maximum permissible wind from the prevailing direction because the wind is reported to me on the approach in degrees magnetic. My company SOP is not to operate into an airfield without ATC coverage and do not operate in the U.S.

We are both essentially standing either edge of the same coin here just from a different perspective. So let's drop the animosity and acknowledge that we have differing views otherwise this tit for tat will draw the wrath of the mods and although I irregularly post I'm not looking to get an enforced holiday from this enjoyable forum.

Growler!!!

BonkeyDonker wrote: »

It will not as the two runways are not exactly 90 degrees from each other.

Rwy 07/25 has a heading of 071/251 so will not need changing at this time.

Indeed you are correct, as I was using the Final Approach Track for the VOR approach 245 degrees which is offset from the runway heading. I stand corrected.

Gaoth Laidir

Growler!!! wrote: »

That is true and again I'm not disputing your knowledge, however the subject under consideration in this thread is Cork. The change in runway designator due to magnetic variation will cause a reduction in maximum permissible wind from the prevailing direction because the wind is reported to me on the approach in degrees magnetic. My company SOP is not to operate into an airfield without ATC coverage and do not operate in the U.S.

We are both essentially standing either edge of the same coin here just from a different perspective. So let's drop the animosity and acknowledge that we have differing views otherwise this tit for tat will draw the wrath of the mods and although I irregularly post I'm not looking to get an enforced holiday from this enjoyable forum.

Absolutely, I did not mean any animosity towards you or anyone else, I was only following on from the points already made, not contradicting them.

zone 1

any talk of upgrade to length of cork runway... are they not very restricted to what aircraft can take off fully loaded. i no fine for 737 a321 but for the future 787 a350 maybe transatlantic ... i think it was part of future plans ...

JCX BXC

zone 1 wrote: »

any talk of upgrade to length of cork runway... are they not very restricted to what aircraft can take off fully loaded. i no fine for 737 a321 but for the future 787 a350 maybe transatlantic ... i think it was part of future plans ...

787's? A350's? As far as I know, if an airline wants to fly those aircraft most routes face few restrictions, but no airline does. If Shannon doesn't have those flights, cork won't.

BonkeyDonker

Carnacalla wrote: »

787's? A350's? As far as I know, if an airline wants to fly those aircraft most routes face few restrictions, but no airline does. If Shannon doesn't have those flights, cork won't.

Agreed. THe irony is that these larger aircraft would be better equipped to fly to the US east coast than their smaller siblings. But like you said the demand does not appear to be there.

notharrypotter

Carnacalla wrote: »

Why?

Do you have a NOTAM available?

A0044/16 refers.

It links to AIP SUP 13/15.

The closure of 07/25 is linked to the installation of Guard Lights for 17/35.

Growler!!!

BonkeyDonker wrote: »

It will not as the two runways are not exactly 90 degrees from each other.

Rwy 07/25 has a heading of 071/251 so will not need changing at this time.

Finally got to the bottom of this. It was wreaking my head all day in work.
Magnetic heading of 07/25 is 068 degrees and 248 degrees respectively. 3 degree offset for VOR approach gives the Final Approach Track of 245 degrees.

Apologies to my poor F/O who had to listen to me! And you guys of course:D