Kill Two Birds With One Stone?

The Chieftain

While there are many issues with train services in Ireland, two of the most glaring also seem obvious candidates to cancel each other out, thus solving two problems at once. The two issues I refer to are:

1) On the Dublin-Cork route, there is a surplus of Mark IV carriages, which are stored out of use. This is a scandalous underuse of modern, expensive rolling stock.

2) On the Dublin-Belfast route, there is the inverse problem, a shortage of "Enterprise" stock. Due to this shortage, an hourly train service each way is impossible.

So, why not take the obvious step, and transfer some of the Mk. IV stock to the Belfast line, thus killing two birds with one stone? If there is some necessity that all the stock on the Enterprise service be jointly owned by IE and NIR, then the necessary Mk IV stock could be sold or leased to NIR. Why ever not? - Seems a criminal waste that this was not done years ago.

flyingsnail

1) I doubt IE have them money to bring them back into service at the moment
2) MK IV does not have TPWS

LXFlyer

Lack of funds to do so is the simple reason - increasing the Enterprise frequency will require funding from the two governments and that has not been forthcoming.

The Chieftain

lxflyer wrote: »

Lack of funds to do so is the simple reason - increasing the Enterprise frequency will require funding from the two governments and that has not been forthcoming.

The funds required are minimal. The rolling stock already exists, and is paid for. There have been numerous reports over the years that the two administrations support an increase in Dublin-Belfast services to hourly. They usually also mention lack of rolling stock as why it is not being provided. My proposal addresses that.

The Chieftain

flyingsnail wrote: »

1) I doubt IE have them money to bring them back into service at the moment
2) MK IV does not have TPWS

They don't have the money to bring them back for Cork services. But Belfast services qualify for EU support, and in any case can access "other money" - why not make a case?
As for TWPS, the locos already have this, would only need to add equipment to a few driving trailers. Minimal effort in the scheme of things.

GM228

If it did happen I doubt MkIVs would see use on the Belfast lines, what would more likely happen is more MkIVs would be used on the Cork line and ICRs (many of which already have TPWS etc) would supplement the Enterprise.

IE initially publicly stated they wanted to increase the Belfast services with ICRs when the last batch started arriving and entered into discussions with Translink about this but nothing ever came of it.

The Chieftain

GM228 wrote: »

If it did happen I doubt MkIVs would see use on the Belfast lines, what would more likely happen is more MkIVs would be used on the Cork line and ICRs (many of which already have TPWS etc) would supplement the Enterprise.

I would not have a problem with that

LXFlyer

The Chieftain wrote: »

They don't have the money to bring them back for Cork services. But Belfast services qualify for EU support, and in any case can access "other money" - why not make a case?
As for TWPS, the locos already have this, would only need to add equipment to a few driving trailers. Minimal effort in the scheme of things.

Well the proposal has been on the cards for some time but neither government has been prepared to stump up their part of the cash.

You would need state funding as well as any EU funds and that just has not been on the table.

As above the likelihood is that in the medium term as finances improve, ICRs will augment the Enterprise sets to offer an hourly product, with the Mk 4 sets staying on Dublin-Cork.

The Chieftain

lxflyer wrote: »

Well the proposal has been on the cards for some time but neither government has been prepared to stump up their part of the cash.

Indeed, but I would love to know what was proposed to them (the governments) - new dedicated coaching stock, or the trickle down approach I advocate? If you set your sights too high, you should not be surprised by failure...

LXFlyer

The Chieftain wrote: »

Indeed, but I would love to know what was proposed to them (the governments) - new dedicated coaching stock, or the trickle down approach I advocate? If you set your sights too high, you should not be surprised by failure...

You seem to think that you are the first person to think of this.

I hate to burst your bubble, but while originally it may have been new stock, more recent proposals were most definitely to use the ICRs but the governments still didn't stump up the money.

savagethegoat

as far as I'm concerned they can transfer all of them

tabbey

The De Dietrich stock acquired 1997 for the Enterprise service, was 28 vehicles, 4 First Driving Van Trailers, 4 Full Firsts, 4 Dining Cars, and 4 sets of 4 Standards, that is, the vehicles needed for 4 trainsets.

After arrival, three standards were incorporated into three sets, leaving one of each type of vehicle spare. At first, this motley collection of vehicles was used on Friday afternoons as a relief as far as Dundalk. I do not know whether these vehicles were cannibalised or what, but if so, presumably they are being fixed during refurbishment.

The UK and Irish exchequers as well as EU funds, paid for four trainsets, yet the operating companies chose to use only three sets. Is it any wonder that the same funding bodies are reluctant to commit further money, given this under use of valuable resources.

Even before refurbishment, when the EGVs were in use, the set size had been reduced.
As the refurbished sets re enter service, perhaps the joint management might utilise the stock as four seven car sets, although this may need another EGV.
The numbers travelling on each service has declined with the opening of the motorway and greater road competition, there is no need for such long trains. Four DD sets augmented by two ICRs could provide an enhanced, and accelerated, service.

Captain Chaos

You are never going to have 4 DD sets in service at the same time as you need maintenance spares. There are 4 EGVs and they are swapped regularly as they still have not worked out all the kinks with them yet. One of the DTVs was used for spare parts for years at one stage, think it was 9003, they even took the drivers seat out of to put in another DVT.

Same with the Mk4s, there are enough to make 8 sets but one is always held as a maintenance spare while 7 ran every day in the boom times.

Losty Dublin

The DD Enterprise was intended as 4 sets of seven carriages in regular traffic running a limited stopping service between Connolly and Great Victoria Street. The call was made outside of NIR and CIE to extend the sets with one more carriage each, leaving one spare per carriage type. The spares did a few relief trips but are now held onto as to bona fide spares

Whatever about the journey times and competition from road but loadings have always been heavy. Additional trips are needed if anything!

tabbey wrote: »

The De Dietrich stock acquired 1997 for the Enterprise service, was 28 vehicles, 4 First Driving Van Trailers, 4 Full Firsts, 4 Dining Cars, and 4 sets of 4 Standards, that is, the vehicles needed for 4 trainsets.

After arrival, three standards were incorporated into three sets, leaving one of each type of vehicle spare. At first, this motley collection of vehicles was used on Friday afternoons as a relief as far as Dundalk. I do not know whether these vehicles were cannibalised or what, but if so, presumably they are being fixed during refurbishment.

The UK and Irish exchequers as well as EU funds, paid for four trainsets, yet the operating companies chose to use only three sets. Is it any wonder that the same funding bodies are reluctant to commit further money, given this under use of valuable resources.

Even before refurbishment, when the EGVs were in use, the set size had been reduced.
As the refurbished sets re enter service, perhaps the joint management might utilise the stock as four seven car sets, although this may need another EGV.
The numbers travelling on each service has declined with the opening of the motorway and greater road competition, there is no need for such long trains. Four DD sets augmented by two ICRs could provide an enhanced, and accelerated, service.

The Chieftain

lxflyer wrote: »

You seem to think that you are the first person to think of this.

I hate to burst your bubble, but while originally it may have been new stock, more recent proposals were most definitely to use the ICRs but the governments still didn't stump up the money.

I have not asserted that I am the first or only one to think of this, though if so I can say that I thought of this independently. What I will assert is that I am trying to get some attention for simple solutions such as this. Is that a problem? I think a major issue with transport planning in Ireland is that options such as this do not seem to be considered in documents such as National Transport Plan, etc. Those who want to see rail services improve should try and get such ideas directly addressed in such official planning exercises.

The Chieftain

Captain Chaos wrote: »

You are never going to have 4 DD sets in service at the same time as you need maintenance spares. There are 4 EGVs and they are swapped regularly as they still have not worked out all the kinks with them yet. One of the DTVs was used for spare parts for years at one stage, think it was 9003, they even took the drivers seat out of to put in another DVT.

Same with the Mk4s, there are enough to make 8 sets but one is always held as a maintenance spare while 7 ran every day in the boom times.

Wasn't this change forced by reality - that spares were required, both for cannibalization, and for swaps in the event of failures?

LXFlyer

The Chieftain wrote: »

I have not asserted that I am the first or only one to think of this, though if so I can say that I thought of this independently. What I will assert is that I am trying to get some attention for simple solutions such as this. Is that a problem? I think a major issue with transport planning in Ireland is that options such as this do not seem to be considered in documents such as National Transport Plan, etc. Those who want to see rail services improve should try and get such ideas directly addressed in such official planning exercises.

The point I'm making is that neither government have stumped up the money needed to make this happen - until that takes place it won't happen.

However, as I pointed out above, in the medium term I would expect it to happen - it's a relatively modest cost and that's the kind of thing that the governments are prepared to invest in.

savagethegoat

The Chieftain wrote: »

Wasn't this change forced by reality - that spares were required, both for cannibalization, and for swaps in the event of failures?

Was there ever a plan to have four sets in service simultaneously ? If so it does seem optimistic to order 28 coaches to make up 4 sets. Surely there is a need for maintenance which will only increase as the years go by, or was the plan to have three sets in service and a complete set as maintenance spare?

tabbey

savagethegoat wrote: »

or was the plan to have three sets in service and a complete set as maintenance spare?

At least that would have made a bit more sense, but I still believe, that with a streamlined maintenance schedule,as in GB, it should be possible to have four sets available nearly all of the time.

Losty Dublin

savagethegoat wrote: »

Was there ever a plan to have four sets in service simultaneously ? If so it does seem optimistic to order 28 coaches to make up 4 sets. Surely there is a need for maintenance which will only increase as the years go by, or was the plan to have three sets in service and a complete set as maintenance spare?

That was the plan, yes. Two sets would be based at entire end on two links each way, a total of 8 services daily and 6 on Sunday. These links allowed for a possible expansion to 12 trains a day if required.

As regards servicing, one set would have been withdrawn each Saturday evening for a longer servicing, returning into traffic on Monday morning. Routine works were carried at night. For longer withdrawals, breakdowns and other emergencies, two Mark sets were to act as spares.

end of the road

GM228 wrote: »

If it did happen I doubt MkIVs would see use on the Belfast lines, what would more likely happen is more MkIVs would be used on the Cork line and ICRs (many of which already have TPWS etc) would supplement the Enterprise.

IE initially publicly stated they wanted to increase the Belfast services with ICRs when the last batch started arriving and entered into discussions with Translink about this but nothing ever came of it.

just as well considering the ICR fleet is stretched ridiculously thin as it is