Why not a Direct Curve from Phoenix Park Tunnel into Heuston?

The Chieftain

After 20-30 years, or thereabouts, passenger services will shortly restart through the Phoenix Park tunnel (PPT). But there is an obvious and serious reason why the PPT has been bereft of passenger service (for the most part) all these years - the lack of a connection from the tunnel into Heuston station itself. At present, the tunnel connects to/from the Cork mainline, but not to the station. This means that commuter services that will use the PPT can't also serve Heuston - an amazing situation.

So, why not take the obvious step, and simply build a direct connecting curve from the PPT into Heuston? With the rationalization of facilities and layout over the years, this should be possible. In any other European country this would have happened years ago. In addition to facilitating Dublin commuter services, this would also enable Heuston to become the terminus/starting point for most if not all intercity services now serving Connolly.

flyingsnail

It would be a sharp curve that would have the effect of severing all of the storage sidings and still give you very limited platform access. AFAIK all the trains using the tunnel will be new services so Heston will still have the same level of commuter services.

Sligo and Belfast services would still have to go to Connolly to change directions to go to Heuston so that just leaves Rosslare services and they would have to pass through Connolly to get to Heuston, doesn't seem like anybody wins in that scenario.

MrMorooka

Putting everything else aside, money. There is no money in the current project to add a crossover that would allow services to call at Platform 10 at Heuston, which would have been something. If there is no money for a single crossover, there certainly isn't any for the massive engineering work of adding a curve and potential new platforms.

The Chieftain wrote: »

In any other European country this would have happened years ago

Yes, but Ireland is a 'low-tax,low-spending' economy in the Anglophone tradition. We hate funding public services and don't see the societal benefits of public transport. We have little in common with how continentals run their countries.

munchkin_utd

MrMorooka wrote: »

<snip>
Yes, but Ireland is a 'low-tax,low-spending' economy in the Anglophone tradition. We hate funding public services and don't see the societal benefits of public transport. We have little in common with how continentals run their countries.

well, I'd actually argue that Ireland is a low tax high benefits country, but this paradox sometimes gets exposed and public transport for normal working people unfortunately suffers.

Another problem with Ireland is simply the craziness that most work and most schools start at 9am which means services are not too packed up till a shade before 8, clean bonkers for an hour, and then afterwards theres not even enough demand to run more than an hourly service on the Maynooth/ M3 spurline combined during the day.
The situation on the roads is the same and is just as pronounced in Cork (and Belfast, but they at least have a behemoth of UK civil service job sector which really is a 9 to 5 job!)
If rushhour was more spread out then half the complaints and congestion problems wouldnt be as severe as they are.

The Irish style rush hour (as in literally an "hour" as opposed to "peak travel time") would be a farce even with German levels of service and subsidies, and the reason theres no chaos in Germany is not because of the services but rather that rush "hour" lasts from about 6.30 till 9am as opposed to an hour up till 9am like in Ireland.

LXFlyer

I don't see what point such a curve would serve - it is far better to have separate services (Heuston-Kildare and Grand Canal Dock-Kildare) which will offer faster journey times and more capacity.

It's utterly irrelevant for Connolly Intercity services.

end of the road

flyingsnail wrote: »

that just leaves Rosslare services and they would have to pass through Connolly to get to Heuston, doesn't seem like anybody wins in that scenario.

absolutely. my journey is long enough as it is without dragging me to heuston. sure, it might be handy the odd time if i was needing to use one of the services out of there but that has only happened a couple of times.

n97 mini

If you look at Google earth, the layout of tracks in virtually every station in Ireland is the least flexible/most inconvenient it could be, and Heuston follows that pattern. As does Connolly: the Galway train could still be running into Connolly if it didn't have to cross all the other (very busy) tracks to get to the main station.

In an ideal world all trains would terminate in the one station and Heuston would be a through station, not a terminus.

The Chieftain

flyingsnail wrote: »

It would be a sharp curve that would have the effect of severing all of the storage sidings and still give you very limited platform access. AFAIK all the trains using the tunnel will be new services so Heston will still have the same level of commuter services.

Sligo and Belfast services would still have to go to Connolly to change directions to go to Heuston so that just leaves Rosslare services and they would have to pass through Connolly to get to Heuston, doesn't seem like anybody wins in that scenario.

On the contrary, I think everyone would win. Right now, the IE network - both commuter and intercity - is run in two non-connecting pieces, one from Heuston, one from Connolly. There are no passenger connections whatsoever between these two independent networks. Surely everyone would benefit from the increased connectivity and new journey opportunities made available if the two networks are integrated, or at least connected?

As for any new connecting curves being sharp, that is not necessarily a problem as speeds have to be low anyway - Heuston is a terminus!

The Chieftain

MrMorooka wrote: »

Putting everything else aside, money. There is no money in the current project to add a crossover that would allow services to call at Platform 10 at Heuston, which would have been something. If there is no money for a single crossover, there certainly isn't any for the massive engineering work of adding a curve and potential new platforms.

I'm sorry, but this sort of negative, "can't be done" attitude is one of the problems. IE has spent hundreds of millions on track over the last 10 years, and is spending a reasonable sum on bringing the PPT back into passenger use. In all the planning for the Dublin region and the national network, I don't recall any concrete proposal to create the direct curve such as I advocate. Not finding a relatively modest sum may be nothing more than not asking?

The Chieftain

end of the road wrote: »

absolutely. my journey is long enough as it is without dragging me to heuston. sure, it might be handy the odd time if i was needing to use one of the services out of there but that has only happened a couple of times.

What I propose would not increase anyones journey. It would simply mean that instead of originating or terminating in Connolly, Belfast and Rosslare line trains would continue on to or originate in Heuston. You could still get off at Connolly, as now.

LXFlyer

The Chieftain wrote: »

What I propose would not increase anyones journey. It would simply mean that instead of originating or terminating in Connolly, Belfast and Rosslare line trains would continue on to or originate in Heuston. You could still get off at Connolly, as now.

Which means that you would need more trains to operate those services and not (in the case of Belfast services) be able to make relatively quick turnarounds in Connolly that an hourly service would require.

I don't see any point to it. People travelling to the south and west can either use the new commuter service from Connolly and transfer at Hazelhatch or Kildare, depending upon where they terminate.

The Chieftain

lxflyer wrote: »

Which means that you would need more trains to operate those services and not (in the case of Belfast services) be able to make relatively quick turnarounds in Connolly that an hourly service would require.

Not at all. Having SW commuter services able to go Kildare-Heuston-Connolly would reduce the number of sets required as compared with having to provide separate sets for Kildare-Heuston and Kildare-Connolly. As for Belfast intercity, right now it is not hourly, or close, and in a separate thread you are arguing that that is unlikely to change in the near future.

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't see any point to it. People travelling to the south and west can either use the new commuter service from Connolly and transfer at Hazelhatch or Kildare, depending upon where they terminate.

That you don't see a point does not mean that there aren't obvious benefits to many people. Creation of a single, unified system must be an improvement on operating two independent sub-systems.

LXFlyer

The Chieftain wrote: »

Not at all. Having SW commuter services able to go Kildare-Heuston-Connolly would reduce the number of sets required as compared with having to provide separate sets for Kildare-Heuston and Kildare-Connolly. As for Belfast intercity, right now it is not hourly, or close, and in a separate thread you are arguing that that is unlikely to change in the near future.

I appreciate that you're coming from this with good intentions, but you're not thinking it through.

Having SW commuter services going Kildare-Heuston-Connolly would lengthen the journey time for the trains going to Grand Canal Dock by up to 8 minutes, allowing for 3 minutes into Heuston, 2 minutes back and 3 minutes for the driver to switch ends.

That would make the journey time completely uncompetitive for anyone travelling from Kildare Line stations to Drumcondra and stations to Grand Canal Dock.

Belfast Intercity was proposed to go two-hourly clockface with 50 minute turnarounds in the new timetable - your plan would make that impossible as there would be insufficient sets to do it - there are three operational Enterprise sets.

The Chieftain wrote: »

That you don't see a point does not mean that there aren't obvious benefits to many people. Creation of a single, unified system must be an improvement on operating two independent sub-systems.

But the proposed hourly Grand Canal Dock-Kildare service will link the two systems, and passengers can switch trains at stations further along the line, and that's without having to make the significant investment in trackwork and signalling that your proposal would require.

Why do they need to go to Heuston at all?

The Chieftain

lxflyer wrote: »

I appreciate that you're coming from this with good intentions, but you're not thinking it through.

Having SW commuter services going Kildare-Heuston-Connolly would lengthen the journey time for the trains going to Grand Canal Dock by up to 8 minutes, allowing for 3 minutes into Heuston, 2 minutes back and 3 minutes for the driver to switch ends.

For the commuter services, use of the Heuston remote platform(s) would eliminate this objection. This could be done via the simple addition of a crossover, or a second remote platform.

lxflyer wrote: »

Belfast Intercity was proposed to go two-hourly clockface with 50 minute turnarounds in the new timetable - your plan would make that impossible as there would be insufficient sets to do it - there are three operational Enterprise sets.

Look, everyone knows that 3 sets and a total of 28 vehicles is insufficient for Dublin-Belfast. Using that artificial limit - artificial as Mk.IV and ICE stock are available - to then shoot down any proposal for progress is disingenuous and just another example of "can't be done".

lxflyer wrote: »

But the proposed hourly Grand Canal Dock-Kildare service will link the two systems...
Why do they need to go to Heuston at all?

Because the GCD-Kildare service will not connect with with Heuston! Take the case of someone coming mainline into Heuston. On arrival, they would have to take a second suburban train back out to somewhere like Hazlehatch, and then take a third train via the PPT, before finally taking another train from Connolly? It will be utterly useless for mainline connections, and of restricted utility for suburban.

kc56

The Chieftain wrote: »

For the commuter services, use of the Heuston remote platform(s) would eliminate this objection. This could be done via the simple addition of a crossover, or a second remote platform.



Look, everyone knows that 3 sets and a total of 28 vehicles is insufficient for Dublin-Belfast. Using that artificial limit - artificial as Mk.IV and ICE stock are available - to then shoot down any proposal for progress is disingenuous and just another example of "can't be done".




Because the GCD-Kildare service will not connect with either Heuston or Connolly! It will be utterly useless for mainline connections, and basically useless for suburban.

GCD-Kildare services will serve Connolly!( and Tara ST and Pearse.)

The Chieftain

kc56 wrote: »

GCD-Kildare services will serve Connolly!( and Tara ST and Pearse.)

You are quite right. I was confusing Docklands and GCD. I am not a Pale-rail dweller...

howiya

The Chieftain wrote: »

Because the GCD-Kildare service will not connect with with Heuston! Take the case of someone coming mainline into Heuston. On arrival, they would have to take a second suburban train back out to somewhere like Hazlehatch, and then take a third train via the PPT, before finally taking another train from Connolly? It will be utterly useless for mainline connections, and of restricted utility for suburban.

Or they would take the Luas between Heuston and Connolly and continue on their journey

Jem72

The reversals required would make this impractical and similarly the remote platform is so far from the main station to make stopping there relatively useless as well but at least it wouldn't make such a difference to add a crossover to enable stopping there.

Another option that might help and would also make the train more attractive would be to use the station nearest the M50 as an intercity stop / interchange. This should really be done on the Sligo line as well. It would make getting to the airport from the train a lot handier as it would be feasible to set up an airport bus service serving those stops.

The Red Cow currently serves the same function for intercity buses.