Responses to Golden Eagle Trust/Upland and habitat restoration article etc.

Jayzesake

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

Golden eagles and Ireland’s uplands crisis

'Birds reintroduced to Co Donegal are struggling. The reasons may lie in a centuries-old ecological problem'

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/golden-eagles-and-ireland-s-uplands-crisis-1.2489767#.VpDnxUeueP0.twitter

A very interesting discussion with Lorcan O'Toole of the G.E.T., who brings up all sorts of wider issues relating to the overall functionality of ecosystems, and how to achieve advances in that respect given the limitations of what is presently acceptable to the Irish public.

We need much more of this type of discussion out there.

Pending such research, he says, the amount of prey for golden eagles could be augmented by increased culling of another top predator: the fox. He has observed the Donegal eagles hunting most in areas where farmers keep fox populations low.

He argues that, because Irish wolves have been exterminated, fox numbers are much too high for the good of the overall ecosystem. Foxes reduce the populations of vital eagle prey, such as red grouse and hare, to levels that will not sustain eagles.

A fox cull will not be popular with everyone, O Toole concedes. But as hardly anyone supports the reintroduction of wolves, he says, we have a responsibility to control foxes just as conservationists, in the absence of big grazers, cut native hazel to foster wild-flower diversity.

He also advocates restoring native forest in the uplands, through spontaneous regeneration and through hand-planting. The latter could provide incomes for hard-pressed farmers. Again, this idea may seem surprising, because eagles favour open landscapes. But O Toole says that native woodlands, limited to smallish pockets by harsh conditions, would also foster additional prey for eagles.

Capercaillie

Jayzesake wrote: »

A very interesting discussion with Lorcan O'Toole of the G.E.T., who brings up all sorts of wider issues relating to the overall functionality of ecosystems, and how to achieve advances in that respect given the limitations of what is presently acceptable to the Irish public.

We need much more of this type of discussion out there.

In my area there are breeding waders/corncrake. Fox population is huge. Conservation groups need to tackle the artificially high fox population. When the habitat is poor and productivity of these birds is low, predators like these can lead to local extinctions. This is happening in many areas. BWI have a corncrake reserve beside me and let foxes breed on the reserve for years. Their wader reserve was little better with no chicks produced for years. I don't hunt or shoot, but got a few local lads to dig out all fox dens (legal with land ownners permission) from around the corncrake areas. Hoping to get work near my farm so I can perhaps learn how to snare them (unpleasant/cruelfor fox but necessary). Snares have to be checked reguaraly (at least 2-3 times a day).

On their wader reserve they put up a fox-proof fence at great expense and waders started being productive. Last year they let grass grow up around fence and it shorted the fence out. Foxes gained access and killed most of the wader chicks. Red necked phalarope bred there, but no young fledged!!. Big problen with corvids there. BWI have been notified, but say there is no problem. I even went public at their AGM about this and a whole raft of problems but nothing done. So frustrating... Nobody seems to care.

Jayzesake

Capercaillie wrote: »

I don't hunt or shoot, but got a few local lads to dig out all fox dens (legal with land ownners permission) from around the corncrake areas. Hoping to get work near my farm so I can perhaps learn how to snare them (unpleasant/cruelfor fox but necessary). Snares have to be checked reguaraly (at least 2-3 times a day).

Just a suggestion, but maybe you should consider applying for a rifle licence and culling the foxes yourself. (You shouldn't have any difficulty obtaining the licence as you have a very good reason.)

I imagine many of us conservationists would have difficulty in shooting a beautiful animal like a fox. But if we're serious about trying to restore an element of balance to ecosystems - in what is ultimately a completely artificial situation created by human intervention over centuries or more - then this is unfortunately an option we can't ignore.

All over the world, conservationists are increasingly recognising that protecting species and ecosystems often involves controlling other species - either exotic invasives or natives that have become overabundant due to ecosystem imbalance.

recedite

Fox proof electric fences work, but may be prohibitively expensive for a very large area. In that situation shooting is the humane solution. Snaring is the cheapest, easiest and most cruel solution.

Capercaillie

Jayzesake wrote: »

Just a suggestion, but maybe you should consider applying for a rifle licence and culling the foxes yourself. (You shouldn't have any difficulty obtaining the licence as you have a very good reason.)

I imagine many of us conservationists would have difficulty in shooting a beautiful animal like a fox. But if we're serious about trying to restore an element of balance to ecosystems - in what is ultimately a completely artificial situation created by human intervention over centuries or more - then this is unfortunately an option we can't ignore.

All over the world, conservationists are increasingly recognising that protecting species and ecosystems often involves controlling other species - either exotic invasives or natives that have become overabundant due to ecosystem imbalance.

I don't shoot and I don't think I would be comfortable shooting a fox. I would be afraid it would be only wounded and die a slow death. At least the other techniques while not pleasant either you are assured that the fox is killed.

recedite

You should never attempt to kill an animal if you don't know how to do it properly. Contact a gun club, there are competent people who will shoot the foxes, for their own sport. Snaring is a slow cruel death.

Capercaillie

recedite wrote: »

You should never attempt to kill an animal if you don't know how to do it properly. Contact a gun club, there are competent people who will shoot the foxes, for their own sport. Snaring is a slow cruel death.

Capercaillie wrote: »

Hoping to get work near my farm so I can perhaps learn how to snare them (unpleasant/cruelfor fox but necessary). Snares have to be checked reguaraly (at least 2-3 times a day).

Approached the gun club and the reply was if we cull foxes for you, can we shoot greylag geese, snipe, jacksnipe, hares as well. No thanks! The other lad who did the foxes for me is not in gunclub and just does the foxes and nothing else.
Snaring does not kill the fox, just restrains them. It still is not pleasant for fox.

Jayzesake

recedite wrote: »

Fox proof electric fences work, but may be prohibitively expensive for a very large area. In that situation shooting is the humane solution. Snaring is the cheapest, easiest and most cruel solution.

Largely agree with this. However let's just suppose for the sake of argument that, for whatever reason in a particular instance, shooting is not an option.

In that case, seeing that we into the realm of ethics here, the ethical thing to do may very well be to snare the foxes, or whatever other problematic animal is in question, as the alternative is to allow local or even more widespread extinctions of other rarer native species, and the further degradation of ecosystems.

But it should also be heavily stressed that no form of human control, whether shooting, snaring, trapping etc., can ever be a real ecological substitute for a trophically balanced ecosystem: predators balance ecosystems in all sorts of ways that are impossible for us to imitate.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Not that I condone snares but if you have to set Fox snare make sure your snares have the correct stop in place.
Snares from UK suppliers do not comply to the Irish Wildlife Act. and are illegal for use here.

Stops usually require humane dispatch though.

recedite

Ray Shapely Applause wrote: »

Stops usually require humane dispatch though.

Of which the most humane choice is probably going to be shooting anyway. So the fox has been caught in the snare and left in a very distressed and injured state for a long time before it gets shot. Probably a lot longer than the 12 hours or "twice daily" checks that people are saying they will make on the snare.

recedite

Capercaillie wrote: »

Approached the gun club and the reply was if we cull foxes for you, can we shoot greylag geese, snipe, jacksnipe, hares as well. No thanks! The other lad who did the foxes for me is not in gunclub and just does the foxes and nothing else.

Jayzesake wrote: »

..let's just suppose for the sake of argument that, for whatever reason in a particular instance, shooting is not an option.

In that case, seeing that we into the realm of ethics here, the ethical thing to do may very well be to snare the foxes...

Worst case scenario is that the fox shooting marksman would have to be paid for his time. If that is the issue, lets just be honest about it.

Capercaillie

recedite wrote: »

Worst case scenario is that the fox shooting marksman would have to be paid for his time. If that is the issue, lets just be honest about it.

Don't shoot so lamping not an option. A snare with a stop prevents injuries. Yes hiring a person to go out lamping every night from the start of May to September would be prohibitively expensive.

Jayzesake

recedite wrote: »

Worst case scenario is that the fox shooting marksman would have to be paid for his time. If that is the issue, lets just be honest about it.

That is not necessarily the worst case scenario, at least in a more general sense (i.e. not foxes in Ireland). For example, in Australia where dozens of native species have been driven to extinction by feral cats, shooting alone would not be a practical solution as literally millions of cats need to be culled to have any effect, so the authorities are planning on mostly poisoning and trapping them instead.

And they are right to do so.

Birdnuts

Jayzesake wrote: »

That is not necessarily the worst case scenario, at least in a more general sense (i.e. not foxes in Ireland). For example, in Australia where dozens of native species have been driven to extinction by feral cats, shooting alone would not be a practical solution as literally millions of cats need to be culled to have any effect, so the authorities are planning on mostly poisoning and trapping them instead.

And they are right to do so.

Just on a point of information for folks maybe new to this forum and the law in this area. The poisoning of cats(or any other mammal/bird bar certain rodents) is illegal in this country. Feral cats can be shot/trapped like any other feral animal.

Zoo4m8

I have to admit that I find it surprising that a discussion on inflicting pain and fear on a wild animal is tolerated on a nature forum...

Snaring is cruel and barbarous ... Under NO circumstances IMO is it acceptable, and I know what I'm talking about..

Talk of snares with a stop is just a sop to the concience of the user, how do you set the stop? There is no one size fits all, do you set it for a juvenile , a vixen, a male ? Either way you are going to trap and hold a wild animal with wire for how long ? Can you imagine it's fear, terror even till someone bothers to turn up to shoot it?
This talk of checking snares two, three times a day is balderdash , what about at night? Is the op going to roll out of bed three times at night and walk the fields with a torch and gun checking snares?

There are more humane ways of controlling vermin when necessary .... In fact I seem to recall offering a poster a dog/fox cage trap that I have no use for any more but was never contacted...

OpenYourEyes

Mod Note:

I'll say this once - if anyone has a problem with the content of this thread or any other thread, they can report it and the Mods will respond accordingly based on the content and volume of those reports.

I realise that this topic of discussion is close to crossing the line of what people want to see on a nature forum, but that being said I think that given the fact that fox control and the need for fox control are very much realities in the Irish countryside (conservation, farming, recreational shooting etc.) I think it's a conversation worth having.

I'll keep monitoring the thread, and any reports that come in. If it steps over any lines it will be closed. As long as the discussion stays civil (and it has so far) I think we're ok. Disagreement and a range of points of view are obviously par for the course.

Zoo4m8

Apologies , I didn't make it clear, I meant ' tolerated ' by other posters.. Sadly it would seem that this forum might not have as many followers as I thought...hopefully it's not just apathy!

Capercaillie

Zoo4m8 wrote: »

I have to admit that I find it surprising that a discussion on inflicting pain and fear on a wild animal is tolerated on a nature forum...

Snaring is cruel and barbarous ... Under NO circumstances IMO is it acceptable, and I know what I'm talking about..

Talk of snares with a stop is just a sop to the concience of the user, how do you set the stop? There is no one size fits all, do you set it for a juvenile , a vixen, a male ? Either way you are going to trap and hold a wild animal with wire for how long ? Can you imagine it's fear, terror even till someone bothers to turn up to shoot it?
This talk of checking snares two, three times a day is balderdash , what about at night? Is the op going to roll out of bed three times at night and walk the fields with a torch and gun checking snares?

There are more humane ways of controlling vermin when necessary .... In fact I seem to recall offering a poster a dog/fox cage trap that I have no use for any more but was never contacted...

Snaring is cruel, but necessary. What is the alternative foxes? Foxes eat the last crexs, lapwings, redshank, curlew left in the Country. I don't live near my farm so do not use snares at present. If I can get work near the farm I will learn how to do it properly/legally and as humanely as possible. I wish foxes were not a problem, but for me they are. Any spare money I have goes towards planting nettles/iris/linseed/fencing/fertiliser/round-up. I have to priortise the money spent on farm. I have tight enough margins as it is without spending money hiring somebody to shoot foxes. You are correct that snares have to be checked as often as possible and thats the reason I don't snare at the moment, they can't be checked!

Cage traps do not work as well as snares (so I'm told).

Jayzesake

Zoo4m8 wrote: »

I have to admit that I find it surprising that a discussion on inflicting pain and fear on a wild animal is tolerated on a nature forum...

Anyone who actually works at the coalface of protecting species or ecosystems understands very well that the choices that have to be made are often far from simple or easy.

From what I have read on this forum, Capercaillie is very definitely in that category, dedicating a lot of his (I'll say "he" for the sake of simplicity) time, energy, funds, land, and thought to conserving some of our most threatened wildlife.

Bona fides don't come much better than that in my book.

Zoo4m8

Capercaillie wrote: »

Snaring is cruel, but necessary. What is the alternative foxes? Foxes eat the last crexs, lapwings, redshank, curlew left in the Country. I don't live near my farm so do not use snares at present. If I can get work near the farm I will learn how to do it properly/legally and as humanely as possible. I wish foxes were not a problem, but for me they are. Any spare money I have goes towards planting nettles/iris/linseed/fencing/fertiliser/round-up. I have to priortise the money spent on farm. I have tight enough margins as it is without spending money hiring somebody to shoot foxes. You are correct that snares have to be checked as often as possible and thats the reason I don't snare at the moment, they can't be checked!

Cage traps do not work as well as snares (so I'm told).

I understand your dilemma and not living on site is a disadvantage but it's important the not to let the problem outgrow its self , if you see what I mean..
Foxes are very territorial and if you take one out it is quickly replaced by another ,if I can give an example, many years ago my father let a local into the place to snare foxes, over one winter he caught thirty two and of course everyone said how our place was crawling with them when all that was happening was a revolving door replacement.
Now on the c.150 acres I have control of there is one maybe two foxes, they are never interfered with and haven't been for years and the number never grows, in fact when we stopped controlling them , as a sheep farm, we had far more misery inflicted on the sheep by magpies, Hoodies and Ravens.
Without doubt foxes do damage to ground nesters and when they are endangered its twice as frustrating but I'm just suggesting maybe a step back approach?
Every area is different but here hunters are not paid to control over populations whether it's Rabbits etc, it's found that they are grateful for the permissions, in fact I see them asking on the farming forum from time to time for shooting.
Certainly snaring is the most effective way of catching foxes, for one particular reason ( that I'm not going to state here) but a couple of cage traps properly sited can work well.
I've already gone on at length on this subject but I'd just like to say that among other works done here and elsewhere is the restoration and extension of habitat of a particular farmland bird in steady decline and whose principal predator is the Sparrowhawk, but there is nothing I can do about that but provide the most favourable cover and conditions and hope that as in other years there is only ever one hawk in the place!

Capercaillie

Zoo4m8 wrote: »

I understand your dilemma and not living on site is a disadvantage but it's important the not to let the problem outgrow its self , if you see what I mean..
Foxes are very territorial and if you take one out it is quickly replaced by another ,if I can give an example, many years ago my father let a local into the place to snare foxes, over one winter he caught thirty two and of course everyone said how our place was crawling with them when all that was happening was a revolving door replacement.
Now on the c.150 acres I have control of there is one maybe two foxes, they are never interfered with and haven't been for years and the number never grows, in fact when we stopped controlling them , as a sheep farm, we had far more misery inflicted on the sheep by magpies, Hoodies and Ravens.
Without doubt foxes do damage to ground nesters and when they are endangered its twice as frustrating but I'm just suggesting maybe a step back approach?
Every area is different but here hunters are not paid to control over populations whether it's Rabbits etc, it's found that they are grateful for the permissions, in fact I see them asking on the farming forum from time to time for shooting.
Certainly snaring is the most effective way of catching foxes, for one particular reason ( that I'm not going to state here) but a couple of cage traps properly sited can work well.
I've already gone on at length on this subject but I'd just like to say that among other works done here and elsewhere is the restoration and extension of habitat of a particular farmland bird in steady decline and whose principal predator is the Sparrowhawk, but there is nothing I can do about that but provide the most favourable cover and conditions and hope that as in other years there is only ever one hawk in the place!

Foxes do replace each other. I had a vixen removed from a den last Spring and within a month I had another fox in it. You have to keep at them. My foxing lad says that a vixen will have several dens and will move often if she is threatened. i don't have Sparrowhawk around my place, trees will not grow. Luckily no hedgehogs either.
Are you working on Grey Partridge?

Zoo4m8

No, Yellowhammer , with some success! I would dearly love to kickstart a Grey Partridge project but habitat not really suitable.
I have fond memories of a covey in an out farm we once owned near ECNR..there is a slim chance that this place may become available for a project like this in the future but the years are slipping by rapidly, so much to do, so little time!
Incidentally there is a CF Tunncliffe painting of a pair of Partridge on the wall looking down on me as I type this...

Capercaillie

Zoo4m8 wrote: »

No, Yellowhammer , with some success! I would dearly love to kickstart a Grey Partridge project but habitat not really suitable.
I have fond memories of a covey in an out farm we once owned near ECNR..there is a slim chance that this place may become available for a project like this in the future but the years are slipping by rapidly, so much to do, so little time!
Incidentally there is a CF Tunncliffe painting of a pair of Partridge on the wall looking down on me as I type this...

Yellowhammer a noble project! Fast declining need all the help they can get!

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Trying to remove Foxes from an area is extremely difficult and populations remain relatively stable even in areas where eradication is attempted. The availability of a territory and food supply seems to dictate numbers more than any actions by man. In the early 80s we killed so many that we exported over 36,000 pelts per year to the UK alone, with no impact on the national fox population or underlying numbers in areas where they were actively hunted. It would appear that our efforts only taken the place of natural population control from lack of food, territory etc.

This is part of the reason for the myth that some areas are rich in Foxes; because a hunter takes dozens out of a few sq km one year and the same the next and so on.

Zoo4m8

Ray Shapely Applause wrote: »

Trying to remove Foxes from an area is extremely difficult and populations remain relatively stable even in areas where eradication is attempted. The availability of a territory and food supply seems to dictate numbers more than any actions by man. In the early 80s we killed so many that we exported over 36,000 pelts per year to the UK alone, with no impact on the national fox population or underlying numbers in areas where they were actively hunted. It would appear that our efforts only taken the place of natural population control from lack of food, territory etc.

This is part of the reason for the myth that some areas are rich in Foxes; because a hunter takes dozens out of a few sq km one year and the same the next and so on.

A lesson I learned very early on which is why I leave them alone now..
The early eighties is the time of the lad snaring foxes I mentioned earlier, he supplied an agent in Limerick for export to the UK. He would skin each animal, wrap it in brown paper and post from Wicklow to Limerick.. A story in itself!

Birdnuts

The Boora project is the gold standard in this regard. Intense control of fox/mink/corvids along with habitat work leading to fantastic results for a variety of ground nesting farmland birds. The Bolybeg grouse project in the NW is doing great work in this area too. I'm not saying any of this is easy or practical in all cases, but it does show what works.