A few questions for train Anoraks

XPS_Zero

Hey,
I've a few general questions for those who know more about trains in Ireland. Excuse the awkward way some of the questions may be phrased.


1. Odd timetable quirks. I notice there are a few really strange one off trains (that I could use if they were not only at the weird time they are at) and I'm wondering why they are only one off. There is one that goes from Newry (an Irish rail) to Bray at the crack of dawn but there are no other trains from the southern end of the DART network at any other time, you have to go to Connoly. There is a train passing through Bray that goes to Dundalk early in the morning but all other trains to Dundalk/Drougheda go from Pearse. Another passes through Bray from Maynooth I assume to get people to work but there is no return. I remember from one of the commuter stations beyond Malahide one time around 2pm there was a direct to Bray train but EVERY other train that day stopped in CC.
Whats the logic behind sending a train one way but not having an equivalent return? or running it just once a day? Is it that there are gaps in the timetable / movements for only one or what?

2. The random & haphazard first class set up. The Cork and Belfast first classes seem to be the only ones worth paying for but even they have weird quirks. I had a FC return to Belfast recently. Due to the refurbishment of Enterprise, my train up and back was a 22000/ICR, and thus there was only one FC carriage, A. But my ticket said B. I was surprised the system let me book it and didn't know that slot had an ICR. Anyway, I'd paid for a FC ticket so I looked into FC and there were empty seats, checked the digital displays and no reservations. So I sat myself down. Some catering guy (it was not the conductor) kicked me out, I tried to explain but all he could see was the B instead of the A, ignoring me when I pointed to the price and explained things. So basically I had a return trip in normal for a huge premium price.
Why are the ICR FC's so similar to the normal one? Different seats and a lamp...that's it! Why are they so haphazard, ie to likes of Westport or Kilkenny might be there sometimes not there other times, at seemingly random times. Sometimes they are for reservation, and sometimes like the Galway run people can just walk in and sit there.

3. Overtaking tracks. Can DARTS / Intercities be overtaken by the other at any point Malahide/Howth to Bray?

4. Trains on the Rosslare line? I was looking forward to a nice comfy trip on a 22000 and yet every time I use it these cold commuter sets pull up? I thought it was meant to be all 22000s on that line?

5. Sligo-Derry? If you wanted to go from Sligo to Derry you would have to go back around and up again, is there no merit in a line connecting these two?

6. Phoenix Park Tunnel. I'm a little confused on this. When it's up and running, 4 trains a day or whatever. If you are going to the Heuston line does this mean you can get a train from Connoly to say Adamstown? Just transfer from a DART and hop onto a 22000 or commuter? I heard something about Grand Canal Dock, will the change be at that unused third track there instead?

Thanks!

GerardKeating

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Hey,
I've a few general questions for those who know more about trains in Ireland. Excuse the awkward way some of the questions may be phrased.


1. Odd timetable quirks. I notice there are a few really strange one off trains (that I could use if they were not only at the weird time they are at) and I'm wondering why they are only one off. There is one that goes from Newry (an Irish rail) to Bray at the crack of dawn but there are no other trains from the southern end of the DART network at any other time, you have to go to Connoly. There is a train passing through Bray that goes to Dundalk early in the morning but all other trains to Dundalk/Drougheda go from Pearse. Another passes through Bray from Maynooth I assume to get people to work but there is no return. I remember from one of the commuter stations beyond Malahide one time around 2pm there was a direct to Bray train but EVERY other train that day stopped in CC.
Whats the logic behind sending a train one way but not having an equivalent return? or running it just once a day? Is it that there are gaps in the timetable / movements for only one or what?

A few years ago, there used to be a quirk in the Galway-Dublin Timetable (might still be there) one more Dublin-Galway train than the reverse journey, and the opposite with the Mayo-Dublin Service, I gather the "extra" train went from Galway to Mayo (originally via Tuam, later via Athlone) to "balance" things out.

Sometimes a service is just to move a train from one location to another.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

2. The random & haphazard first class set up. The Cork and Belfast first classes seem to be the only ones worth paying for but even they have weird quirks. I had a FC return to Belfast recently. Due to the refurbishment of Enterprise, my train up and back was a 22000/ICR, and thus there was only one FC carriage, A. But my ticket said B. I was surprised the system let me book it and didn't know that slot had an ICR. Anyway, I'd paid for a FC ticket so I looked into FC and there were empty seats, checked the digital displays and no reservations. So I sat myself down. Some catering guy (it was not the conductor) kicked me out, I tried to explain but all he could see was the B instead of the A, ignoring me when I pointed to the price and explained things. So basically I had a return trip in normal for a huge premium price.
Why are the ICR FC's so similar to the normal one? Different seats and a lamp...that's it! Why are they so haphazard, ie to likes of Westport or Kilkenny might be there sometimes not there other times, at seemingly random times. Sometimes they are for reservation, and sometimes like the Galway run people can just walk in and sit there.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

3. Overtaking tracks. Can DARTS / Intercities be overtaken by the other at any point Malahide/Howth to Bray?

Not really, They might be able at Clongriffen Station, but the only 4-track (at present) is the Kildare Route

XPS_Zero wrote: »

4. Trains on the Rosslare line? I was looking forward to a nice comfy trip on a 22000 and yet every time I use it these cold commuter sets pull up? I thought it was meant to be all 22000s on that line?

XPS_Zero wrote: »

5. Sligo-Derry? If you wanted to go from Sligo to Derry you would have to go back around and up again, is there no merit in a line connecting these two?

There used to be a Sligo/Enniskillen/Omagh/Strabane/Derry route, but not sure if there was ever an actual direct service. Bus Eireann (Route 64) provides 8 services a day between Sligo and Derry (via Bundoran and Letterkenny) so some demand does exist, but not to justify the half billion or more to build the rail route.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

6. Phoenix Park Tunnel. I'm a little confused on this. When it's up and running, 4 trains a day or whatever. If you are going to the Heuston line does this mean you can get a train from Connoly to say Adamstown? Just transfer from a DART and hop onto a 22000 or commuter? I heard something about Grand Canal Dock, will the change be at that unused third track there instead?

Thanks!

When it is eventually up and running one would be able to get a Train from GCD or Connolly to Adamstown and other stations on the Kildare Route.

tabbey

2. First class.
ICRs do not have first class. They have a section called premier seating, which is standard seat at a premium fare. A person who is allergic to travelling with free travel methadonians, might choose this option, personally I think it is robbery. So long as people pay this, IR will just laugh all the way to the bank. It is especially outrageous on Belfast and Cork trains, where passengers assume they are paying extra for a proper first class seat.

3. Overtaking.
In theory, it is possible to run a train wrong line for overtaking, but it now never happens, and would cause chaos. The only solution is a significant stretch of four tracking.

4. Rosslare service.
Unfortunately IR operate 2900 class on the down morning and up afternoon Rosslare train, most days, in spite of ICR s running on suburban services on the GSWR mainline, and sometimes to Dunboyne. IR has long shown contempt for the Rosslare route. I can understand some of the peak hour trains may need standing room, but with proper mainline stock, this would attract more traffic, and be cost effective.

5. Sligo - Derry.
This corridor never had a direct rail route. Even travelling via Enniskillen, on the Sligo, Leitrim and Northern Counties Railway, would have been slower than a bus. There is no prospect of such a route, unless EL Dorado is discovered there.

6. Phoenix Park Tunnel.
When the line is rehabilitated, up to four trains per hour may run from Adamstown or Hazelhatch through the tunnel, Drumcondra, Connolly, Pearse and reverse at Grand Canal Dock. I suspect we will be lucky to get even two per hour off peak It will allow south western commuters a service without changing, to the eastern parts of town, It will also allow them get to Drumcondra for teacher training college, and with a bus connection, the airport or possibly DCU.

devnull

Trains can be turned at Howth Junction (as this morning proved), as well as a loop for northbound trains at Clongriffin.

A fourth platform for a possible southbound loop was built but there are no tracks and overhead lines there, but the actual platform is there.

Single track operation I've seen used a few times in the last few months, normally when a train dies somewhere and blocks the line.

savagethegoat

you let a catering guy order you out of "first class" when you had the appropriate ticket? really?

Carawaystick

XPS_Zero wrote: »

3. Overtaking tracks. Can DARTS / Intercities be overtaken by the other at any point Malahide/Howth to Bray?

There's 3 tracks from the Tolka to Connolly Station.

MrMorooka

Carawaystick wrote: »

There's 3 tracks from the Tolka to Connolly Station.

Yes, but the third one is just a headshunt for Connolly yard, I'm not sure if it's even electrified. As far as I'm aware, it's never been used for overtaking, it's probably not classified for carrying passengers.

Overtaking in practice only occurs at Connolly station and Clongriffin station, I think.

flyingsnail

MrMorooka wrote: »

Yes, but the third one is just a headshunt for Connolly yard, I'm not sure if it's even electrified. As far as I'm aware, it's never been used for overtaking, it's probably not classified for carrying passengers.

Overtaking in practice only occurs at Connolly station and Clongriffin station, I think.

I believe what you are referring to is the Connolly Wash Road. It serves as a headshunt and train wash for Connolly yard and station (except platform 7). It is not signaled for passenger trains, just shunt movements.

end of the road

XPS_Zero wrote: »

There is a train passing through Bray that goes to Dundalk early in the morning but all other trains to Dundalk/Drougheda go from Pearse.

that operates from either rosslare or gorey

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Another passes through Bray from Maynooth I assume to get people to work but there is no return.

i'm not sure what time that particular one runs at, but i believe one of the wexford evening services is a through from maynooth. now that could have changed over the years so don't take it as definite.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

The random & haphazard first class set up. The Cork and Belfast first classes seem to be the only ones worth paying for but even they have weird quirks. I had a FC return to Belfast recently. Due to the refurbishment of Enterprise, my train up and back was a 22000/ICR, and thus there was only one FC carriage, A. But my ticket said B. I was surprised the system let me book it and didn't know that slot had an ICR. Anyway, I'd paid for a FC ticket so I looked into FC and there were empty seats, checked the digital displays and no reservations. So I sat myself down. Some catering guy (it was not the conductor) kicked me out, I tried to explain but all he could see was the B instead of the A, ignoring me when I pointed to the price and explained things. So basically I had a return trip in normal for a huge premium price.

catering staff are not IE staff, but work for a private company. they don't have a right to ask you to leave. sadly, the fact you had to travel in standard instead of first dispite paying for first is your fault here as you decided to do what someone working for a private company told you to do. at least you will know for next time should you decide to travel by train and pay for first.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Why are the ICR FC's so similar to the normal one? Different seats and a lamp...that's it! Why are they so haphazard, ie to likes of Westport or Kilkenny might be there sometimes not there other times, at seemingly random times. Sometimes they are for reservation, and sometimes like the Galway run people can just walk in and sit there.

IE decided to buy a mix mash of 22000 class. some with first class and others not as some routes apparently don't require it (not my opinion) . as they operate a random generator in terms of what varient of 22000 class is availible, whatever is availible will turn up due to maintenence schedules and the fact their maintenence depots are miles out of the way.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Overtaking tracks. Can DARTS / Intercities be overtaken by the other at any point Malahide/Howth to Bray?

i think north of connolly it can happen at times, but dart gets the priority over everything else.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Trains on the Rosslare line? I was looking forward to a nice comfy trip on a 22000 and yet every time I use it these cold commuter sets pull up? I thought it was meant to be all 22000s on that line?

this has been a bug barer of mine for years. i'm not going to be driven away though, i don't give up that easily. yes, your right in saying rosslare is supposed to be 22000 class operated on all services apparently but when it comes to IE, what is supposed to be and what is are 2 completely different things. basically from what i can see, heuston is the more important station when it comes to the use of 22000 class, including suburbans (where they do struggle)
on the connolly side, its a random unit generator in terms of suburban stock vs long distance stock. so you will end up with a long distance style train doing a maynooth droghida or m3 parkway, while a suburban set will run sligo or rosslare (rosslare being the most likely as there is complete contempt for it) its a thorn in the side of CIE and has been since CIE'S formation.
its effectively about operational convenience for IE, and once IE convenience is met, thats all that matters.

Carawaystick

MrMorooka wrote: »

Yes, but the third one is just a headshunt for Connolly yard, I'm not sure if it's even electrified. As far as I'm aware, it's never been used for overtaking, it's probably not classified for carrying passengers.

Overtaking in practice only occurs at Connolly station and Clongriffin station, I think.

I've been on northbound Drogheda trains that left Connolly station and were passed by northbound darts before crossing the Tolka.
Once 2 northbound darts passed us, as the driver informed us through gritted teeth.

goingnowhere

There are 5 tracks from Connolly until North Strand, 4 of which are good for passenger use

There are 3 tracks northwards to East Wall, 2 good for passenger use

Then 2 tracks

Then 3 tracks over the East Wall bridge, the 3rd track being the access to the Fairview depot