Long run for improving 5k time

Battery Kinzie

I'm trying to improve my 5k time and have changed my weekly running accordingly to incorporate more speed work. However, the long run on the weekends is still my favourite run of the week and I usually do around 14-20k. Would there be any problem with keeping my long run this long? I presume not, but in most 5k plans I read the long run goes up to at most 7/8 miles.

Would it be a good idea to maybe run the middle 5k of my long run at about goal 5k pace +60-70seconds (i.e. 5.00-5.10 min/km since I'm aiming for sub 20 minutes), or am I better off keeping the long run as an easy workout and just enjoy it?

Cheers.

rom

Have you a link to the plan that you are using ? What is your current 5k PB

Battery Kinzie

rom wrote: »

Have you a link to the plan that you are using ? What is your current 5k PB

I'm not following any specific plan. I just do a long run on the weekends, with (usually) 3 runs during the week, 1 of which is either tempo runs or intervals.

I haven't done a 5k in a few months now since I was training for a HM. My last time was 21.30 which was in August last year which was after only 3/4 months of running, and my training has been a lot better since then. I'm gonna do a parkrun either this weekend or the next to get a more recent time, and I might even go sub 20 then (or close). But even if I do I want to try improve that even more, so the question about can the long run be too long still remains.

Thanks.

rom

Why not follow a tried and tested plan?

Battery Kinzie

rom wrote: »

Why not follow a tried and tested plan?

Not really sure to be honest. Any recommendations? Hal Higdon or something similar?

Cona

No, there isn't an issue with keeping the long run long. It will help with overall endurance and build aerobic capacity. Remember, the 5k is 90% an aerobic event and you need a strong aerobic base to run one well. That being said, I have read far too many posts on here and articles that advise lots of slow running to build a base which will naturally increase your 5k time which can easily be taken out of context (at least I know I did). For me, that just never worked, mostly because I probably wasnt able to run enough mileage at the time.

It was a 2 years back when I was aiming to break 20 mins and I was trying for a while. I set out a plan for myself in which I felt I needed continuos weekly mileage of about 40 miles per week. I also had two key sessions in that week. I didn't count the long run as a key session as I didn't feel it was specific to the 5k event, even though it was important to get it done (as was the rest of the easy weekly miles), the long run wasn't key. For me there were two key sessions which helped me break through.

Session 1 was a speed interval session. I changed it every week and it consisted of either 12x400m, 6x800m or 5x1k. With the 400m and 800m session, the aim was to run at faster than goal pace. And to get used to running at maybe 6.10 or 6.15 per mile (sub 20 5k is 6.25 per mile). Letting my body feel that and get used to looking at my watch and seeing the pace and mentally settling into that. With the 5 x 1K, I ran this at goal pace. Basically ran 1k in 4mins, took 50% recover (i.e 2 mins) and then went again.
I felt even from the start that I was capable of hitting each of these sessions. Speed isn't an issue for me, but speed endurance is. So that lead me to my next session of the week.

Session 2 was a 4 mile continuos tempo run. I believe the pace for this was 7 min per mile (possibly 7.10, not sure). But the idea was to run a 4 mile run comfortably hard. Not straining but just working hard and building that lactate threshold. As I said, speed endurance was my weakness and I felt this was targeting that area nicely.

All my other runs that week were easy runs of 6-7 miles and the long run at the weekend was 10-12 miles which was also at an easy pace. Every person will be different but I guess the pace on these runs just need to feel easy and relaxed. You want to build aerobic capacity but you also want to stay fresh for the key weekly sessions so don't kill yourself on the long run unless your confident of being recovered in time for the next session. Adding progressions to each of the sessions is also key. DOnt just run the same session each week. If you are repeating a session like 800m, then either take less recovery or run slightly faster. This is actively progressing your fitness.

So, for most people who are currently running sub 21 min 5k, I would be confident that 6-8 weeks of 40-45 miles per week including 1 speed interval session and 1 threshold tempo run then you will get very close to sub 20.

Battery Kinzie

Cona wrote: »

No, there isn't an issue with keeping the long run long. It will help with overall endurance and build aerobic capacity. Remember, the 5k is 90% an aerobic event and you need a strong aerobic base to run one well. That being said, I have read far too many posts on here and articles that advise lots of slow running to build a base which will naturally increase your 5k time which can easily be taken out of context (at least I know I did). For me, that just never worked, mostly because I probably wasnt able to run enough mileage at the time.

It was a 2 years back when I was aiming to break 20 mins and I was trying for a while. I set out a plan for myself in which I felt I needed continuos weekly mileage of about 40 miles per week. I also had two key sessions in that week. I didn't count the long run as a key session as I didn't feel it was specific to the 5k event, even though it was important to get it done (as was the rest of the easy weekly miles), the long run wasn't key. For me there were two key sessions which helped me break through.

Session 1 was a speed interval session. I changed it every week and it consisted of either 12x400m, 6x800m or 5x1k. With the 400m and 800m session, the aim was to run at faster than goal pace. And to get used to running at maybe 6.10 or 6.15 per mile (sub 20 5k is 6.25 per mile). Letting my body feel that and get used to looking at my watch and seeing the pace and mentally settling into that. With the 5 x 1K, I ran this at goal pace. Basically ran 1k in 4mins, took 50% recover (i.e 2 mins) and then went again.
I felt even from the start that I was capable of hitting each of these sessions. Speed isn't an issue for me, but speed endurance is. So that lead me to my next session of the week.

Session 2 was a 4 mile continuos tempo run. I believe the pace for this was 7 min per mile (possibly 7.10, not sure). But the idea was to run a 4 mile run comfortably hard. Not straining but just working hard and building that lactate threshold. As I said, speed endurance was my weakness and I felt this was targeting that area nicely.

All my other runs that week were easy runs of 6-7 miles and the long run at the weekend was 10-12 miles which was also at an easy pace. Every person will be different but I guess the pace on these runs just need to feel easy and relaxed. You want to build aerobic capacity but you also want to stay fresh for the key weekly sessions so don't kill yourself on the long run unless your confident of being recovered in time for the next session. Adding progressions to each of the sessions is also key. DOnt just run the same session each week. If you are repeating a session like 800m, then either take less recovery or run slightly faster. This is actively progressing your fitness.

So, for most people who are currently running sub 21 min 5k, I would be confident that 6-8 weeks of 40-45 miles per week including 1 speed interval session and 1 threshold tempo run then you will get very close to sub 20.

Thanks a lot, really helpful post. I think I'm in a similar position to what you were 2 years ago, in that I can get to sub 4 min/k for a 1k, maybe even 2 at a stretch, but keeping that pace for 5k is something I'd struggle with. I think I'd take a while to get to 40 mpw since I currently do 20/25 mpw, but that's another thing I'm trying to increase, I just don't want to do it too quickly.

Thanks again.

Chartsengrafs

Battery Kinzie wrote: »

However, the long run on the weekends is still my favourite run of the week

This bit is important as it'll keep getting you out the door.
A ten mile run at the weekend at an easy pace* never did anyone any harm.

You ran 21.30 despite not running too long. By doing little else other than ticking over, getting the miles in etc your 5k PB will continue to come down. Consistency is important here.

* relative to the person in question.

rom

Cona wrote: »

I have read far too many posts on here and articles that advise lots of slow running to build a base which will naturally increase your 5k time which can easily be taken out of context (at least I know I did). For me, that just never worked, mostly because I probably wasnt able to run enough mileage at the time.

You have to put the work in to get the results. I went from 29 to 24 mins for 4 Miles on the same route in exactly a year with this approach. Clearly I did sessions also but training needs to be polarised. Also you should train at the paces where you are now and not where you want to be. Trying to drop 1.5 mins off your 5k is a nice bit and should be done in stages.

Cona wrote: »

I didn't count the long run as a key session as I didn't feel it was specific to the 5k event, even though it was important to get it done (as was the rest of the easy weekly miles), the long run wasn't key. For me there were two key sessions which helped me break through.

Its like making a cake. The bottom of the cake is your slow easy miles. The top is your fast stuff. The better the base from long running then the higher the cake will go. Most distance runners do a long run of some kind.

Cona wrote: »

Session 1 was a speed interval session. I changed it every week and it consisted of either 12x400m, 6x800m or 5x1k. With the 400m and 800m session, the aim was to run at faster than goal pace. And to get used to running at maybe 6.10 or 6.15 per mile (sub 20 5k is 6.25 per mile). Letting my body feel that and get used to looking at my watch and seeing the pace and mentally settling into that. With the 5 x 1K, I ran this at goal pace. Basically ran 1k in 4mins, took 50% recover (i.e 2 mins) and then went again.
I felt even from the start that I was capable of hitting each of these sessions. Speed isn't an issue for me, but speed endurance is. So that lead me to my next session of the week.

Session 2 was a 4 mile continuos tempo run. I believe the pace for this was 7 min per mile (possibly 7.10, not sure). But the idea was to run a 4 mile run comfortably hard. Not straining but just working hard and building that lactate threshold. As I said, speed endurance was my weakness and I felt this was targeting that area nicely.

Good sessions. Very important for the OP to do a long warmup and cooldown for these sessions. 15+ at least either side of the session.

Cona wrote: »

All my other runs that week were easy runs of 6-7 miles and the long run at the weekend was 10-12 miles which was also at an easy pace. Every person will be different but I guess the pace on these runs just need to feel easy and relaxed. You want to build aerobic capacity but you also want to stay fresh for the key weekly sessions so don't kill yourself on the long run unless your confident of being recovered in time for the next session.

Being fresh for you next session is key alright. So you should be taking everything including long run easy outside of the session. Training should always be polarized.

Cona wrote: »

Adding progressions to each of the sessions is also key. DOnt just run the same session each week. If you are repeating a session like 800m, then either take less recovery or run slightly faster. This is actively progressing your fitness.

Chances are that the OP does not have access to a track so it would be best to run for 90 sec from a lap post to lap post or something like that so that the 800m is the same each time. Don't trust the watch for short interval distances.

Cona wrote: »

So, for most people who are currently running sub 21 min 5k, I would be confident that 6-8 weeks of 40-45 miles per week including 1 speed interval session and 1 threshold tempo run then you will get very close to sub 20.

I only once ever did focused 5k training about 3 years ago for about 6 weeks and the sessions were quite similar to the above but long warmup and cooldown at super slow pace was key also especially when you could be new to sessions. It brought me from 19:10 down to sub 18.

12x1min and 1 min rec
10x1.5min and 1 min rec
8x2min and 1 min rec

Battery Kinzie

rom wrote: »

You have to put the work in to get the results. I went from 29 to 24 mins for 4 Miles on the same route in exactly a year with this approach. Clearly I did sessions also but training needs to be polarised. Also you should train at the paces where you are now and not where you want to be. Trying to drop 1.5 mins off your 5k is a nice bit and should be done in stages.



Its like making a cake. The bottom of the cake is your slow easy miles. The top is your fast stuff. The better the base from long running then the higher the cake will go. Most distance runners do a long run of some kind.


Good sessions. Very important for the OP to do a long warmup and cooldown for these sessions. 15+ at least either side of the session.


Being fresh for you next session is key alright. So you should be taking everything including long run easy outside of the session. Training should always be polarized.



Chances are that the OP does not have access to a track so it would be best to run for 90 sec from a lap post to lap post or something like that so that the 800m is the same each time. Don't trust the watch for short interval distances.



I only once ever did focused 5k training about 3 years ago for about 6 weeks and the sessions were quite similar to the above but long warmup and cooldown at super slow pace was key also especially when you could be new to sessions. It brought me from 19:10 down to sub 18.

12x1min and 1 min rec
10x1.5min and 1 min rec
8x2min and 1 min rec

Thanks for the added info.

Yeah whenever I'm doing a workout I'll do long enough warm ups and cool downs. Last week I did 3k warm up, 3k @4.10min/km and then 2k cool down. The first few times I did workouts I didn't do warmups similar to that and I definitely noticed a difference between doing them and not.

demfad

Battery Kinzie wrote: »

I'm trying to improve my 5k time and have changed my weekly running accordingly to incorporate more speed work. However, the long run on the weekends is still my favourite run of the week and I usually do around 14-20k. Would there be any problem with keeping my long run this long? I presume not, but in most 5k plans I read the long run goes up to at most 7/8 miles.

Would it be a good idea to maybe run the middle 5k of my long run at about goal 5k pace +60-70seconds (i.e. 5.00-5.10 min/km since I'm aiming for sub 20 minutes), or am I better off keeping the long run as an easy workout and just enjoy it?

Cheers.

You can add 30s to 1 min bursts at the end of the long run @ 5k pace. Start with 5-6 x 30s. Not as easy as it sounds on tired legs. This will adapt the long run a little for your 5k needs. Do strides at least once a week too. e.g 6-10 x 100m fast but relaxed. Jog or walk back recovery. You can put these at the end of a long run too.

Cona

Battery,
Lots of good info in this thread, but you need to be careful not to over-do it. A killer mistake would be to try to ramp up your mileage and also add in speed work. You will be guaranteed to be injured or just worn-out.

In my opinion, if you want long term progress, then increase the mileage over the next 4-8 weeks and then begin slowly adding in speedwork until you can complete 2 a week as per above.

If you want short term success, just add the speed work and keep the mileage low, very easy, ensuring you are getting recovery and you will take some time off the 5k.

Battery Kinzie

Cona wrote: »

Battery,
Lots of good info in this thread, but you need to be careful not to over-do it. A killer mistake would be to try to ramp up your mileage and also add in speed work. You will be guaranteed to be injured or just worn-out.

In my opinion, if you want long term progress, then increase the mileage over the next 4-8 weeks and then begin slowly adding in speedwork until you can complete 2 a week as per above.

If you want short term success, just add the speed work and keep the mileage low, very easy, ensuring you are getting recovery and you will take some time off the 5k.

I had already been doing one speedwork session a week, so I think I'll keep that there, but try to build up the overall mileage around it. So previously I used to do about 20-25k a week with 1 speed work and over the next few weeks I'll try to get that up to 30 at a minimum, and pushing 40 on good weeks. I'm still young (22), so I can afford to take a long term view I think, though there is a part of me that keeps thinking that someone of my age and weight should be able to breeze a 20 minute 5k without much work.

As an aside, I did a 5k tempo (with 15 minute warm up and cool down) at a pace of 4:25 min/km and although getting to that pace (and even higher) was easy enough, I found holding that pace for more than 2k to be relatively tough. So definitely I need to work on my speed endurance.

Anyway, thanks again to all that have replied, all useful info.

RayCun

Join a club, do speed and tempo sessions with other people. It makes a big difference