Employee disputing holidays

LegacyUser

Hi guys.

Small family business manager here.

We have one staffer who's wife is e-mailing the ladies in the office, disputing the holiday entitlements pertaining to her husband, as in she reckons he is owed several days more than what we think.

Wanting to make sure our ducks were in a row, the senior office girl double checked all the records (clockcards, sick notes, bank/national holidays owed etc).
Everything panned out fine, and to be doubly sure, (on senior ladies request) i had the other office girl do the same. Same result, all pans out, all is correct and in order.

She's still disputing it however, and i'm wondering as to what my next course of action should be. We have little to no experience with employee disputes and this is relatively new ground for us.

Far as i can tell, we've done our due dilligence, but she's having none of it.
So, do i a; tell her to bugger off and block her email, or b; do i request that she make a complaint to someone if she stills feels wronged?

TL;DR: wife of staffer disputing hours despite being wrong, wat do.

Cheers all,

SomeDude.

3DataModem

If it's the employees wife, then the husbands vacation entitlements are none of her business, surely? Data protection and all that.

Tell her her husband should raise it, and then show him the audit you've done.

Am I missing something?

Stheno

Is the husband part or full time?

Tow

Ask her for a written copy of her calculations.
You also need to insure you are calculating holidays correctly. Are you including 8% of the hours taken for holidays in his entitlement?

Kimbot

This has nothing to do with the employees wife first of all.

2nd, if he has an issue with his holidays then let him query it himself.

3rd, maybe he told the wife he was in work when he was off elsewhere.

SouthernBelle

3DataModem wrote: »

If it's the employees wife, then the husbands vacation entitlements are none of her business, surely? Data protection and all that.

Tell her her husband should raise it, and then show him the audit you've done.

Am I missing something?

This!

I wouldn't contact my husband's employer, and vice versa!

Dial Hard

Tow wrote: »

Ask her for a written copy of her calculations.

He shouldn't even be engaging with her on this, it's a discussion that needs to take place between the employer and the employee.

Mr Ed2011

What does his contract of employment state re; holiday entitlements

messrs

jonny24ie wrote: »

This has nothing to do with the employees wife first of all.

2nd, if he has an issue with his holidays then let him query it himself.

3rd, maybe he told the wife he was in work when he was off elsewhere.

this is the first thing I thought of!!

Firstly OP you don't have to deal with staff members wife at all, he should be contacting you himself!

secondly if you are happy to deal with her, as previous poster said, get her to show you her written calculations as to where she is getting this from and what she thinks he is entitled to and work from there.

Mr Ed2011

Calculating annual leave

There are 3 different ways of calculating your annual leave entitlement:
•Based on the employee's working hours during what is called the leave year, which runs from April to March. An employee who has worked at least 1,365 hours in the leave year is entitled to the maximum of 4 working weeks' annual leave unless the employment ceases during the leave year. Many employers use the calendar year (January-December) instead of the official leave year to calculate entitlement
•By allowing 1/3 of a working week for each calendar month in which the employee has worked at least 117 hours
•8% of the hours worked in the leave year, subject to a maximum of 4 working weeks

An employee may use whichever of these methods gives the greater entitlement. When calculating the entitlement, employers should include all hours worked including time spent on annual leave, maternity leave, parental leave, force majeure leave, adoptive leave or the first 13 weeks of carer’s leave.

An employee who has worked for at least 8 months is entitled to an unbroken period of 2 weeks' annual leave.

Part-time work: Generally, the annual leave for part-time workers is calculated using the 3rd method, that is, 8% of hours worked. If you work full time for some months and the rest of the year you work part time, you should calculate the leave for the full-time and the part-time periods of work separately.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/annual_leave_public_holidays.html

You can find out more about annual leave in this explanatory booklet on holidays and public holidays (pdf) or from the Workplace Relations Commission's Information and Customer Service - see 'Where to apply' below.

Mrs OBumble

Do you belong to any employer's organisation? Contact them or your lawyer for support. Do not rely on legal advice from randoms on boards.ie!



That said "Do no discuss an employee's situation with third parties" is very good advice .. at least not without written release from the employee that the third party is authorized to represent them.

LegacyUser

Thanks for the responses lads.

A little background: She's a battleaxe. There, i said it. A total wench, controlling in the extreme. She controls all of his finances.

Recently, the staffer in question had a falling out with the senior office lady. A year later he still will not enter the office under any circumstances. Not that it matters, as his wife has always dealt with anything money related anyway.

We've been happy to deal with her in the past but this is coming to an end i think.

I have asked for her calculations; dead silence on that part. as for: "3rd, maybe he told the wife he was in work when he was off elsewhere.": This is a distinct possibility.

He is being given holidays on a 8% of hours worked basis, is full time, and has been with us 25+ years.

Anyway, i've instructed the ladies not to respond to her emails anymore.

thefinalstage

I imagine whats happening here is the guy was saying he was in work when he was at the cinema or something away from this she-devil.

Sad state of affairs.

Chemical Byrne

Jeepers, the poor guy. I feel for him. She must be an awful piece of work to say she has the neck to call up and start discussing his financial affairs for him. That is downright financial and emotionally abusive.

The guy sounds like he might be an anxious, timid type to say that he won't stand up to her and that he won't come into the office because of a minor falling out some time ago.

I dunno, perhaps you could take him aside and ask him if he needs any help or if he should consider counselling?

Little wonder it might be No.3 if he merely wanted to get away from her for a bit. Who could blame him.

haveringchick

Just ignore her completely block her email and mobile and prevent her from entering the premises
This guy can't even get away from this battle axe wen he's at work
Worst she can do is make a formal complaint to workplace relations
If she does they will contact you to get your version of events
You can let them have your calculations and then that will be an end to it

davo10

Perhaps he doesn't want to go on holiday/to a family event with her and is using the excuse that he can't get time off?

tracey turnblad

If he doesn't want to talk to senior office lady he can communicate through letters I would also be sending him a letter with a breakdown of all holidays taken and a calculation of how holidays are calculated. I would also be advising him I would only be dealing with him not his wife( you were mad to allow this in the first instance) and if he doesn't want to communicate with senior office lady then that's tough but he needs to be professional he doesn't have to be bestos with her he just needs to say what needs to be said. I worked doing payroll and would have mothers ringing me etc I would never ever communicate with them and actually used to enjoy letting them know that after they had their little rant (usually they would be wrong anyways)

Whispered

I would say do not speak to her further. You've already gone above and beyond. Probably something you need to look at - you shouldn't have to deal with a third party when it comes to your employees and their finances/holidays etc.

I'd also suggest you let your employee know that he must communicate with the office. Very unprofessional of him not to tbh and not something that would have been accepted in any job I've been in. As sorry as you feel for him with his wife, it could be easily sorted if he spoke to the people involved himself.

the_pen_turner

I think you first need to find someone to verify that your numbers are correct (just for peace of mind and for future)
I would send an letter to each staff member in relation to the rules on this matter and slip in that all issue like this has to be employee to employer / representative due to data protection (or some such) .

ask him to provide the maths on why she thinks he deserves more

I would also sit down with him to see if maybe he is hiding some days off from her.
if he is then you can create an out for him to create more days off. maybe overtime in lieu of the extra days

newacc2015

the_pen_turner wrote: »

I think you first need to find someone to verify that your numbers are correct (just for peace of mind and for future)
I would send an letter to each staff member in relation to the rules on this matter and slip in that all issue like this has to be employee to employer / representative due to data protection (or some such) .

ask him to provide the maths on why she thinks he deserves more

I would also sit down with him to see if maybe he is hiding some days off from her.
if he is then you can create an out for him to create more days off. maybe overtime in lieu of the extra days

They are pretty easy calculations and OP has said they have been checked several times. I wouldnt go to the effort of mailing all the employees over a noisy wife.

I wouldnt engage her any more. She sounds like one of those individuals who is never wrong, even though she is clearly wrong. I cant see the logic of OP getting involved in what could potential be a relationship dispute. He is running a business, not accord relationship mediation service.

the_pen_turner

newacc2015 wrote: »

They are pretty easy calculations and OP has said they have been checked several times.yes be he also said he is new to this . there could be a minor miss calculation or interpretation I wouldnt go to the effort of mailing all the employees over a noisy wife. I was saying that so that it wouldn't be just towards him and be misunderstood as him being singled out. im sure all employees should be reminded of the terms

I wouldnt engage her any more agreed not her business. She sounds like one of those individuals who is never wrong probably, even though she is clearly wrong very small chance she is right . I cant see the logic of OP getting involved in what could potential be a relationship dispute. He is running a business, not accord relationship mediation service of course not but after 25 years they must know each other fairly well , but if there was some way you could help out then why not. maybe offering him a way of covering up him taking a day here and there to have some peace from his stressful life isn't a bad thing, im not saying to cover anything up or get between them that would be stupid .

.

LegacyUser

"I cant see the logic of OP getting involved in what could potential be a relationship dispute."
I'm getting involved with a hours dispute more than anything else.

"ask him to provide the maths on why she thinks he deserves more"
She's been asked. Nothing came back.

"you shouldn't have to deal with a third party when it comes to your employees and their finances/holidays etc."
True, but then again we've been fine with dealing with her in the past. I know that our staffer isn't the best at maths, so meh, whatever works.

"I would also sit down with him to see if maybe he is hiding some days off from her. "
Oh no, hell no. I've been down that road (personally), damned if i'm going down it professionally. *Son, here be dragons*

"I'd also suggest you let your employee know that he must communicate with the office. Very unprofessional of him not to tbh and not something that would have been accepted in any job I've been in."
This is something we've been struggling with. He's good at what he does, and his work rarely sees him come anywhere near the office anyway. I know that's a crappy excuse for tolerating it.

"Worst she can do is make a formal complaint to workplace relations"
And here we have the crux of the issue (for me anyway). We don't have bugger all issues with this, and i've heard many horror stories of Kangaroo employee relations courts from others in the industry. I'd really rather resolve everything before it get to that point.

"I think you first need to find someone to verify that your numbers are correct"
This is probably the silver bullet i need.

Avatar MIA

AGGGH

There needs to be one final communication with the wife to lay out that there will be no further contact with her regarding an employee's work related details.

While well intentioned I would not try to solve this problem for the employee - a world of pain awaits for the company if they get involved in something that is not their responsibility. I'd not try to create O/T for him etc and I certainly wouldn't suggest he might need counselling.

There's been a certain amount of customs and practices that need to be addressed before they become imbedded, and that's why you simply cannot ignore the wife, but an email should suffice.

Has the employee themselves even queried the holidays? If not, leave it there. It's not your responsibility to chase an employee to ask if they are happy with their holiday entitlements if you think you have calculated them correctly.

Avatar MIA

ConfusedBossMan wrote: »

"Worst she can do is make a formal complaint to workplace relations"
And here we have the crux of the issue (for me anyway). We don't have bugger all issues with this, and i've heard many horror stories of Kangaroo employee relations courts from others in the industry. I'd really rather resolve everything before it get to that point.

One other thing. IF the WIFE makes a complaint to Workplace Relations SHE will be politely told to PFO!

It's got nothing to do with the wife.

Secondly, IF the employee contacts WPR and WPR contacts you and you tell them you asked the employee to provide their calculations without response again he will be told politely to PFO.

bideye

I work for a small mfg company and it can be difficult to keep track of employees hours of leave etc.

I use a pre printed sheet that the employee needs to sign for holidays/unpaid leave/ etc - I leave it in the canteen and when staff require leave they need to submit the dates and sign it and leave up to the office and it is then discussed with the staff whether the time off can be granted - then I sign it off

---

but the real beauty is if there is any dispute I have a record in writing and a signature

As I do the wages in the company I can tell you if any spouse contacted me with regards to wages/holidays etc - I would tell them where to go ... very nicely !

toadfly

OP if you want me PM the figures, I can try to help you with clarification of the calcs.

nikkibikki

Can you contact Workplace Relations yourself to ensure calculations are correct and for other advice? If he's refusing to engage with another member of staff, he's not doing his job. Mediation may be needed here.

Chemical Byrne

I don't see whats wrong with suggesting to him that he could take counselling, not as a manager but as a concerned person. He is quite clearly in an abusive relationship. Maybe he is so brow beaten he can't see it? Maybe a few words of outside advice might make him see he is in desparate situation with her controlling his every penny?

Why is noone really acknowledging the fact that he is being abused? I can tell you, if the genders were reversed and some nutty husband was quizzing and controlling the wifes wages then there would be a different reaction.

Dr_Bill

This should be relatively straight forward.

1. The company's contract of employment is not with this woman so end all discussions with the lady immediately, all discussions about holiday leave or any other issues are between the company and the employee.

2. Verify your calculations are correct, seek advice from a third party, maybe your local small business association can assist or similar?

3. Present your holiday leave calculations once verified to the employee and be firm but fair.

4. Keep everything strictly professional and business like do not get involved in his personal life it is not relevant to the business. If the employee is carrying out their job and is performing then there is no issue.

5. Pay all wages/salary from the company to the employee into a nominated bank account (probably done this way anyway). Again what happens afterwards is none of the company's business, back to point 4!

Good luck!

GSBellew

I note that you say you calculated leave @ 8% of hours worked.

I would suggest you refer to post #10 which has the three methods of calculating leave,
bearing in mind that you must use the method which is most beneficial to the employee.

For example, based on a 39 hour week.

To qualify for 20 days in a year @ 8% you need 1,950 hours.

However if the employee works 1,365 hours they get the full 20 days.
The 8% calculation goes out the window once the 1,365 is exceeded.

Avatar MIA

GSBellew wrote: »

bearing in mind that you must use the method which is most beneficial to the employee.

Up to statutory holiday levels.

Good to point out though as we've been assuming the OP is correct in their certainty that holidays are calculated correctly.

screamer

Max is 4 weeks 20 days leave per year plus bank holidays.
Do not engage with the wife data protection nightmare. Engaging her only fuels her on to be a pain in the ass.

BTW I'll add an anecdote for you place I worked once married woman went off on a weeks work assignment so she told her husband. There was some family emergency and she couldn't be contacted so he came into the office to ask her manager to please call the client so that he could speak with her.
Manager has to say sorry she's not working shes on weeks holiday and she was with her bit on the side
You don't know what goes on behind closed doors so only deal with the EE on this

Mrs OBumble

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

I don't see whats wrong with suggesting to him that he could take counselling, not as a manager but as a concerned person. He is quite clearly in an abusive relationship. Maybe he is so brow beaten he can't see it? Maybe a few words of outside advice might make him see he is in desparate situation with her controlling his every penny?

Why is noone really acknowledging the fact that he is being abused? I can tell you, if the genders were reversed and some nutty husband was quizzing and controlling the wifes wages then there would be a different reaction.

I agree that he's being abused. And maybe his friends or colleagues could suggest to him that he should get counselling.

But his manager should only be talking to him about his workplace performance. If the abuse is affecting his performance (eg making him unwilling to engage with an office staff member), then his manager can request him to address the performance and perhaps suggest that counselling is an option. But if his performance is fine, then the manager has no grounds to suggest it.

If you move away from managing workplace performance to managing your employees lives overall, you are opening up a whole can of worms - especially if your management of their lives has different outcomes from what the employee wants.

Chemical Byrne

I get you MrsOB but if the EE and OP have a good personal relationship, is there anything to be said for him having a personal chat with him saying that he couldn't help but notice his situation and he's concerned for his wellbeing with the whole carry on of his wife etc? A man-to-man chat rather than a manager-to-employee talk if you will. The holiday thing is only one facet of her emotional/financial abuse. Who knows what goes on in private.

Again, if a female employee was being manipulated and controlled by a possessive bf or husband people would be rallying to support her. This "who cares, that's his problem attitude is typical" of the subtle misandry in society as a whole.

I know a guy whose demon gf (now ex) was so manipulative and controlling that she ended up controlling all his money and prevented him from seeing his family. To have a few quid for himself he had to set up a secret account after a raise and unbeknownst to her, kept only the raise for himself while letting the pre raise amount go into her account. He also used to be "working weekends" from time to time when in reality he was secretly going off home to spend time with his family. This chap was the nicest, kindest guy you can imagine. Unfortunately too much so and it nearly broke him. After a few years he decided enough was enough and kicked her loser arse to the kerb! He is infinitely happier now.

But hey, who cares if this poor man is going through something similar, we'll just turn a blind eye, right?

Jonti

Nothing to do your employees wife, she is not your employee and as such has no say in anything to do with your and her husband's employment details and emoluments.
Ignore her gestures and call her husband into the office and have a chat with him regarding her contact regarding his holiday entitlements.
Show him your findings regarding his holiday entitlements and ask him to agree/not agree the outcome and tell him to inform his wife to cease harassing your staff.

Stheno

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

I get you MrsOB but if the EE and OP have a good personal relationship, is there anything to be said for him having a personal chat with him saying that he couldn't help but notice his situation and he's concerned for his wellbeing with the whole carry on of his wife etc? A man-to-man chat rather than a manager-to-employee talk if you will. The holiday thing is only one facet of her emotional/financial abuse. Who knows what goes on in private.

Again, if a female employee was being manipulated and controlled by a possessive bf or husband people would be rallying to support her. This "who cares, that's his problem attitude is typical" of the subtle misandry in society as a whole.

I know a guy whose demon gf (now ex) was so manipulative and controlling that she ended up controlling all his money and prevented him from seeing his family. To have a few quid for himself he had to set up a secret account after a raise and unbeknownst to her, kept only the raise for himself while letting the pre raise amount go into her account. He also used to be "working weekends" from time to time when in reality he was secretly going off home to spend time with his family. This chap was the nicest, kindest guy you can imagine. Unfortunately too much so and it nearly broke him. After a few years he decided enough was enough and kicked her loser arse to the kerb! He is infinitely happier now.

But hey, who cares if this poor man is going through something similar, we'll just turn a blind eye, right?

Mod: Stop the speculation and get back on topic.

Bandana boy

Years ago I worked in a place where expenses where paid once a month .All signed off expenses had to be with payroll by the 16th to be paid on the 28th.
A colleague of mine did not get his in on time , and must have told the Wife it was a company problem rather than he was late.
She ran the payroll team and F$%ded and blinded them from a height , accused them of putting them in penury and that she was going to sue the company etc
Stated she would be down that afternoon to collect a cheque .
It really wasn’t a big deal getting paid the expenses when you were late as a one off and if he had asked Payroll they would have helped him out. He did not find out for 3 years that his wife had been in contact and how she had behaved , although most of the company talked about it behind his back during that time !

haveringchick

ConfusedBossMan wrote: »

"I cant see the logic of OP getting involved in what could potential be a relationship dispute."
I'm getting involved with a hours dispute more than anything else.

"ask him to provide the maths on why she thinks he deserves more"
She's been asked. Nothing came back.

"you shouldn't have to deal with a third party when it comes to your employees and their finances/holidays etc."
True, but then again we've been fine with dealing with her in the past. I know that our staffer isn't the best at maths, so meh, whatever works.

"I would also sit down with him to see if maybe he is hiding some days off from her. "
Oh no, hell no. I've been down that road (personally), damned if i'm going down it professionally. *Son, here be dragons*

"I'd also suggest you let your employee know that he must communicate with the office. Very unprofessional of him not to tbh and not something that would have been accepted in any job I've been in."
This is something we've been struggling with. He's good at what he does, and his work rarely sees him come anywhere near the office anyway. I know that's a crappy excuse for tolerating it.

"Worst she can do is make a formal complaint to workplace relations"
And here we have the crux of the issue (for me anyway). We don't have bugger all issues with this, and i've heard many horror stories of Kangaroo employee relations courts from others in the industry. I'd really rather resolve everything before it get to that point.

"I think you first need to find someone to verify that your numbers are correct"
This is probably the silver bullet i need.

If she makes a complaint to workplace relations the first thing they do is send you a copy of her complaint to give you a chance to respond
Your response would be to forward a copy of his time sheets for 2015 2014 showing hours worked and annual leave and public holidays taken
There are no kangaroo courts
Lots of employers don't respond to the complaint and don't turn up to the hearing and then cry foul when they are found guilty

bisset

If a man was contacting his wife's workplace about her holiday or pay entitlements it would be catagorised as controlling behaviour and would be seen as an indicator of domestic abuse. Has the husband given written permission for you to discuss these matters with her? Whatever way this gets resolved it seems that someone in your organisation should do some training in HR legislation.

stargazer 68

OP IMO you do not need anyone to verify your calculations are correct as your employee - who you have a contract with - has not questioned his leave entitlement. If and only if he does then you can work it out. All you need to do is tell the wife you will have no more dealings with her on the issue and if he has a problem then you are happy to sit down with him and discuss it.

Lux23

haveringchick wrote: »

If she makes a complaint to workplace relations the first thing they do is send you a copy of her complaint to give you a chance to respond
Your response would be to forward a copy of his time sheets for 2015 2014 showing hours worked and annual leave and public holidays taken
There are no kangaroo courts
Lots of employers don't respond to the complaint and don't turn up to the hearing and then cry foul when they are found guilty

She can't make a complaint as she isn't his employee, the whole thing is really very sad. The poor man, I only hope he is up to something naughty.

Mrs OBumble

bisset wrote: »

If a man was contacting his wife's workplace about her holiday or pay entitlements it would be catagorised as controlling behaviour and would be seen as an indicator of domestic abuse.

Yes, it would be an indicator.

But so what. There is no requirement on employers to report domestic abuse (of people of any gender), or to advise employees about aspects of their personal life that don't impact on their workplace performance.

And it's actually dangerous for employers to stray into advising employees abotu things that are none of their business.

Chemical Byrne

:^
True, there is no legal obligation for anyone to to do anything where there is suspicions of abuse, whatever form it may take. However, I do think that there is a moral obligation to offer advice someone who is being abused.
But only if the abused is a woman of course,:rolleyes:

groovyg

Op you should never have engaged with his wife full stop. You could land yourself in whole heap of problems with data protection. This information should be between you and the employee, if he doesn't want to call into the office because he has issues with another staff member that needs to be addressed too.

haveringchick

Lux23 wrote: »

She can't make a complaint as she isn't his employee, the whole thing is really very sad. The poor man, I only hope he is up to something naughty.

You complain via an online form which is submitted electronically
There's nothing to stop her from making the complaint
She obviously has all his employment details at her fingertips

Arbiter of Good Taste

OP has the employee himself actually queried the hours? If not, then why are you wasting time checking and double checking calculations? She has no more right to query this than the man on the moon.

And what the hell are you doing engaging with her in the first place???

phildenny

I know lots of men who would say that they are " no good with figures" and are happy to let the "missus" deal with all that. In fact, lots of them would not have any clue about tax, holidays etc. and don't want to know either. Maybe that's the case here?