Parking space responsibility

proozie

I rent an apartment and sometimes my parking space is encroached upon by the car using the space beside mine, making it difficult or impossible to fit into my space. I have asked my landlord to see what can be done, but the management agent responded saying that the directors of the management company maintain that parking disputes between residents should be sorted out between themselves.

This seems like a bit of a cop out to me and I'm just wondering where the responsibility actually lies. Ideally the landlord would sort it all out but if I press the issue or threaten to leave over it, I feel like I'd be on the fast track to a rent increase or a lease term change. I don't know if the other residents are tenants or own their place.

I have already made the resident, landlord, and management company aware of the issue but they still on occasion park improperly. I feel like I'm a very weak position - what's the best course of action to take here?

Butters1979

I can't see what the landlord could do against another tenant or owner, it's not really anything to do with them. Did you say you have already explained to this other person they are blocking your parking and they continue to do it? If so then it's pretty out of order. They're trespassing on your property (although rented). Report them every time they do it.

traprunner

If your apartment car park has a clamping company to deal with illegally parked cars then get onto the clamping company. Once clamped they will be unlikely to encroach again.

proozie

Yes, I've said it to the person already and they keep doing it, almost like they're too lazy to bother parking properly if the space beside them is free. Unfortunately there's no clamping in place and the management company seem pretty lax about the parking situation, solidified by them saying parking issues between residents have to be sorted out between themselves. So even if I report it nothing can/will be done (apparently) but surely there must be some responsibility somewhere? I'd prefer not to go down the avenue of blocking the car in or parking incorrectly myself as this could lead to escalation and them potentially scratching my car etc.

Butters1979

Well if you've tried to be reasonable and he still does it then you need to escalate it. I wouldn't do something like blocking him in, then you're also in the wrong.
He is trespassing and obstructing your property. I would report it to the police. I know it seems a bit petty but it's breaking the law and you've tried the more reasonable path.

Paulw

Butters1979 wrote: »

He is trespassing and obstructing your property. I would report it to the police.

They won't get involved in a parking dispute, and frankly, you are wasting their time.

Maybe time for another conversation with your neighbour - "Sorry, I think I may have bumped your car since it was parked so close to mine, and if you parked properly that wouldn't happen". Just make sure that you didn't touch their car in the first place. It may just get the point across to them that by their bad parking, they may leave themselves open to having their car bumped by you getting in/out of your space.

Butters1979

Paulw wrote: »

They won't get involved in a parking dispute, and frankly, you are wasting their time.

Maybe time for another conversation with your neighbour - "Sorry, I think I may have bumped your car since it was parked so close to mine, and if you parked properly that wouldn't happen". Just make sure that you didn't touch their car in the first place. It may just get the point across to them that by their bad parking, they may leave themselves open to having their car bumped by you getting in/out of your space.

It's not as parking dispute like out on the street. It's trespassing. I know it's petty and the Gardaí aren't gonna break out the armed response unit, but it's a genuine complaint and they will at least contact the offender. It's also your only option if you can't convince the guy to stop it.

Paulw

Butters1979 wrote: »

It's not as parking dispute like out on the street. It's trespassing.

If you want to get technical, it's not trespassing. The parking spaces, most likely, are common area. They are "owned" by the management company, and the space in use is licensed to the unit owner. So, the resident has permission to use the common area parking. The lines are not a legal divide between parking spaces. They are simply lines in a common area.

The Gardai will not, in any way, get involved.

wrt40

Why not put some parking cones down on your side of the line?

RainyDay

Butters1979 wrote: »

It's not as parking dispute like out on the street. It's trespassing. I know it's petty and the Gardaí aren't gonna break out the armed response unit, but it's a genuine complaint and they will at least contact the offender. It's also your only option if you can't convince the guy to stop it.

No, they won't. It is on private property, so the Gardai have no role in how or where you park on private property.

Butters1979

Paulw wrote: »

If you want to get technical, it's not trespassing. The parking spaces, most likely, are common area. They are "owned" by the management company, and the space in use is licensed to the unit owner. So, the resident has permission to use the common area parking. The lines are not a legal divide between parking spaces. They are simply lines in a common area.

The Gardai will not, in any way, get involved.

Sorry, I do not want to get involved in a back and forth with you, as it's not helping the OP.


But it is trespassing. The OP does not own it, but the OP does not need to own it for it to be trespassing. The person parking over it does not own it nor do they have a right to park there. Therefore they are trespassing on private property owned by someone without permission to park there.

Also, It is obstructing the persons quality of living. If the offender has been asked to stop doing it and continues, it can be construed as harassment. The Gardaí most likely will dismiss it initially, but this is due to disinterest and/or “priorities”. But should, and if pressed, will get involved as it is genuine civilian complaint with potential to escalate. I wouldn’t confuse Gardaí disinterest with what they are technically obliged to intervene in. After this we can agree to disagree as it’s you opinion against mine really.

For OP, the idea about the cones above actually sounds good to me. If they are genuinely doing it out of laziness or just really bad at parking, this could help avoid the issue all together.

RainyDay

Butters1979 wrote: »

Sorry, I do not want to get involved in a back and forth with you, as it's not helping the OP.


But it is trespassing. The OP does not own it, but the OP does not need to own it for it to be trespassing. The person parking over it does not own it nor do they have a right to park there. Therefore they are trespassing on private property owned by someone without permission to park there.

Also, It is obstructing the persons quality of living. If the offender has been asked to stop doing it and continues, it can be construed as harassment. The Gardaí most likely will dismiss it initially, but this is due to disinterest and/or “priorities”. But should, and if pressed, will get involved as it is genuine civilian complaint with potential to escalate. I wouldn’t confuse Gardaí disinterest with what they are technically obliged to intervene in. After this we can agree to disagree as it’s you opinion against mine really.



For OP, the idea about the cones above actually sounds good to me. If they are genuinely doing it out of laziness or just really bad at parking, this could help avoid the issue all together.

The Gardai have no role in a dispute about private property. You might as well call them because your other half leaves the toilet seat up or pulls the bed covers over at night.

proozie

I've thought about the cone thing but to be honest my dealings with the person leads me to believe they would try to accuse me of damage to the car brought around by a cone being blown or knocked into the car (I've no idea where I would stand legally on this). Similarly the implication I might damage the car would more than likely not be intimidating enough and probably end up using it against me down the line.

Paulw

Take plenty of photos of their incorrect parking, over multiple dates. Send them to your landlord. Only the landlord has a contract with the management company. So, get the landlord to chase the management company and have them talk to the offending individual.

Other than that, it's a civil dispute between two people.

intheclouds

Can the management company assign you a different parking space?

wrt40

proozie wrote: »

I've thought about the cone thing but to be honest my dealings with the person leads me to believe they would try to accuse me of damage to the car brought around by a cone being blown or knocked into the car (I've no idea where I would stand legally on this). Similarly the implication I might damage the car would more than likely not be intimidating enough and probably end up using it against me down the line.

A cone blowing over in the wind is unlikely to cause damage or any legal action against you. you tried to be nice and he's being a dick. He'll get the message quick enough.

deandean

Are the two parking spaces a reasonable size? I've seen two spaces squeezed in between pillars where no matter how you park, the two cars are gonna be too close for comfort.

alias no.9

Are they encroaching on the line or crossing it? Is it the drivers side or passengers side that's beside your space?

Marcusm

proozie wrote: »

I rent an apartment and sometimes my parking space is encroached upon by the car using the space beside mine, making it difficult or impossible to fit into my space. I have asked my landlord to see what can be done, but the management agent responded saying that the directors of the management company maintain that parking disputes between residents should be sorted out between themselves.

This seems like a bit of a cop out to me and I'm just wondering where the responsibility actually lies. Ideally the landlord would sort it all out but if I press the issue or threaten to leave over it, I feel like I'd be on the fast track to a rent increase or a lease term change. I don't know if the other residents are tenants or own their place.

I have already made the resident, landlord, and management company aware of the issue but they still on occasion park improperly. I feel like I'm a very weak position - what's the best course of action to take here?

Next time they're out, park across both spaces. Tit for tat is silly but if you've asked politely without success, childishness might be your only hope.

andekwarhola

Feel your pain, but the management company can't do anything about it, save speaking to them.

It's a domestic issue unfortunately.

It's not trespassing technically AFAIK. As said, it's a common area owned by MC and allocated to residents.

If they refuse to stop doing it after you've informed the landlord and the MC, I know what I'd do but I can't say it here.

the_syco

Paulw wrote: »

Maybe time for another conversation with your neighbour - "Sorry, I think I may have bumped your car since it was parked so close to mine, and if you parked properly that wouldn't happen"

The OP shouldn't admit to something that they didn't do, in case the other person has gotten their car hit elsewhere.

RainyDay

andekwarhola wrote: »

Feel your pain, but the management company can't do anything about it, save speaking to them.

That's not true - they could do something about it if they wished, but they are choosing not to. They could choose to implement clamping for bad parkers, but they are choosing not to - perhaps for cost reasons or whatever. But ultimately, they are the only ones who could actually do something.

andekwarhola

RainyDay wrote: »

That's not true - they could do something about it if they wished, but they are choosing not to.

Hypothetically speaking, anybody here could drive over to your estate and have a word with your neighbour about their inconsiderate parking. Doesn't mean we'd have a leg to stand on or could do anything about it.

You're overestimating the power that the MC has to adjudicate in domestic disputes. The only thing they could really do is write to them and ask them to be more considerate but it wouldn't do any good.

No MC board wants to get bogged down in internecine fights like that and why should they. They are only there to oversee the safety of the development, keep it solvent and pay for the services.

Our estate had to put clamping to an AGM vote before they could bring it in, and even then it was for non-payment of fees, which is is a direct breach of MC contract, not really comparable to a spat about inconsiderate parking. Also I would assume 'bad parking' punishment is for more serious stuff like double or dangerous parking (where you are blocking emergency access or service vehicles) and so on.

Having a word, forceful or otherwise, with the neighbour or telling the landlord would definitely be your best bet here.

RainyDay

andekwarhola wrote: »

Hypothetically speaking, anybody here could drive over to your estate and have a word with your neighbour about their inconsiderate parking. Doesn't mean we'd have a leg to stand on or could do anything about it.

You're overestimating the power that the MC has to adjudicate in domestic disputes. The only thing they could really do is write to them and ask them to be more considerate but it wouldn't do any good.

No MC board wants to get bogged down in internecine fights like that and why should they. They are only there to oversee the safety of the development, keep it solvent and pay for the services.

Our estate had to put clamping to an AGM vote before they could bring it in, and even then it was for non-payment of fees, which is is a direct breach of MC contract, not really comparable to a spat about inconsiderate parking. Also I would assume 'bad parking' punishment is for more serious stuff like double or dangerous parking (where you are blocking emergency access or service vehicles) and so on.

Having a word, forceful or otherwise, with the neighbour or telling the landlord would definitely be your best bet here.

Yes, I agree that the OPs first port of call would be talking to the neighbour and/or the landlord. And yes, I agree that clamping would be a bit of a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

But it is more than a domestic dispute. The OP is paying for a parking space and not getting it.

Pat Mustard

I've heard of a couple of these disputes.

In one dispute, neighbours were turning a blind eye to their visitors parking in another person's parking space. When the relevant neighbours could be tracked down, they were usually contrite and willing to arrange to have the offending vehicles moved. However, it was not always possible to track down the relevant neighbour so this led to an intermittent and frequently fruitless door to door hunt, to have these vehicles moved. This was very inconvenient, of course.

There were excuses, nods, smiles and apologies from the neighbours but nothing changed.

One day, the aggrieved parking space owner/licensee started blocking in the cars that wrongfully occupied his space. The neighbors began to call to his door to ask him to move his car so as to allow the visitor to leave his space. He would oblige, of course.

Very soon, the parking problems melted away, almost as if they had never existed in the first place.

There is no doubt that blocking in another person's car is wrong. And while I could not condone such action, I think that it is interesting to see how matters resolved in this instance.

I will be clear about one thing. I am not suggesting that the OP should block in the offending car. What I am saying is that it is too convenient for the neighbour to park carelessly. If a way can be found to make it inconvenient for him to do so, he may alter his behaviour.

Citizenpain

Try this maybe

Pat Mustard

I once saw a car parked really badly in a hotel car park, over the white line into the neighbouring space.

There was an angry note on the windscreen, to the effect of:

"Next time leave a ****ing tin opener so that the person next to you can get into their ****ing car."

proozie

I've already talked to the neighbour and landlord - the landlord asked the management company who said they can't (or won't) do anything, and the neighbour just ignores me.

I'm surprised to hear that there's not more of an onus on the management company to take responsibility for this. Surely the terms of the parking license are being broken by the other resident in which case the license could be rescinded and it would become a trespassing matter if they continue to use it, and also my landlord's license is not being granted fully since the allocated space is not available? Would there not be some clause to not cause any annoyance to other residents of the block?

It's a bit frustrating that my best option is to go tit-for-tat and block off their space and hope they get the message at how annoying it is. My only other option seems to be to force my landlord into doing something to deliver on something that was promised (potentially would need to bring a civil case against the other resident), which will obviously strain relations with my landlord.

Toots

Does the other resident own their apartment or is it a tennant? If it's a tennant it could be worth trying to track down their landlord and make a complaint.

the_pen_turner

how about some kind of bollard or soft pole that could be bolted down .

athtrasna

the_pen_turner wrote: »

how about some kind of bollard or soft pole that could be bolted down .

That would be classed as vandalism of management company property. The MC owns the car park.

the_pen_turner

athtrasna wrote: »

That would be classed as vandalism of management company property. The MC owns the car park.

get their permission

athtrasna

the_pen_turner wrote: »

get their permission

Unlikely to happen. The directors are charged with acting in the best interests of the development. This would benefit one unit only and would set a dangerous precedent.

shrapnel222

Pat Mustard wrote: »

I once saw a car parked really badly in a hotel car park, over the white line into the neighbouring space.

There was an angry note on the windscreen, to the effect of:

"Next time leave a ****ing tin opener so that the person next to you can get into their ****ing car."

lol, no joke, but someone had left one of those notes on our car back in 1986! :pac:

Arbiter of Good Taste

Pat Mustard wrote: »

I once saw a car parked really badly in a hotel car park, over the white line into the neighbouring space.

There was an angry note on the windscreen, to the effect of:

"Next time leave a ****ing tin opener so that the person next to you can get into their ****ing car."

I would just preface it with the opening greeting

"Dear A$$hole"

Pat Mustard

shrapnel222 wrote: »

lol, no joke, but someone had left one of those notes on our car back in 1986! :pac:

I don't know exactly where I saw it but I still remember seeing that note! So funny.

Almost as useful as yelling at a cloud: :pac:

Carawaystick

You could try light a fire under the landlords ass by getting the prtb involved.
Your landlord is not keeping their side of the bargain - supplying you a parking place.

If the other place is being rented out you could complain about antisocial behaviour by the tenants to the prtb also.

martinr5232

There is a page on facebook called "Bad parking ireland " post a picture on that everytime they park badly take a screenshot and leave it on their windscreen everytime.

SarahMollie

Parking in apartment blocks is beyond annoying and regularly leads to difficulties.

Where I used to live, my allocated space had an abandoned car on one side (didnt move once in the 18months we lived there), but the car on the other side was a nightmare. I occasionally had the same difficulty as yourself (parking over the lines) but my main issue is that the car itself was a bit of a banger and the person didnt care. they would whack their door open and leave little dings in my paintwork. At one point they actually chipped my paint work on my (2015) car - i nearly cried. I know it was them as I hadnt been anywhere else other than work and my parking in work doesnt have anyone on that side.

The unfortunate thing is that there is so little you can do. I couldnt prove who caused the damage and as for the bad parking, the management company weren't willing to get involved.

I just started parking in the visitor car park, annoying, but better than having my car damaged again.

thebiglad

In my estate the spaces are slightly small - I think the developers were required to provide x number of spaces in the planning and merely adapted the space they had provided anyhow to be that number by slightly narrowing the bays.

I drive a large estate and if park next to anything but a hatchback etc, even if we are both central in our bays (which often isn't the case!) then it can be tough to get in/out.

I presume your issue is his passenger side v your driver side so could you offer them to switch bays, i.e. they use your and you use theirs, in that way the problem passes down the line (which is no longer your problem).

If it caused by 2 large cars trying to accommodate into 2 normal sized bays and your neighbour 1 bay up has a smaller car perhaps the problem is removed.

Alternatively when they are out, park your car right up to the line of the bay and leave it there for a few days, it will force them further over and eventually they might get the message or learn to park properly,

the_pen_turner

athtrasna wrote: »

Unlikely to happen. The directors are charged with acting in the best interests of the development. This would benefit one unit only and would set a dangerous precedent.

surely it helps everybody by making everybody know that they have to respect everybody else

athtrasna

the_pen_turner wrote: »

surely it helps everybody by making everybody know that they have to respect everybody else

Nice thought but no.

alias no.9

proozie wrote: »

I've already talked to the neighbour and landlord - the landlord asked the management company who said they can't (or won't) do anything, and the neighbour just ignores me.

I'm surprised to hear that there's not more of an onus on the management company to take responsibility for this. Surely the terms of the parking license are being broken by the other resident in which case the license could be rescinded and it would become a trespassing matter if they continue to use it, and also my landlord's license is not being granted fully since the allocated space is not available? Would there not be some clause to not cause any annoyance to other residents of the block?

It's a bit frustrating that my best option is to go tit-for-tat and block off their space and hope they get the message at how annoying it is. My only other option seems to be to force my landlord into doing something to deliver on something that was promised (potentially would need to bring a civil case against the other resident), which will obviously strain relations with my landlord.

I used have a space with a concrete pillar at the entry to the space which was about one foot square, probably more in fact, encroaching more than 6" into my space, I usually reversed into the space so it would have been on the drivers side and left plenty of space to open the drivers door even if I kept the front wing very tight to it. Keeping close to the pillar left space at the other side to get the then very small kids in and out.

The problem arose when the space on the other side became normally occupied by a van. By necessity, they would also reverse into the space, leaving their drivers door beside my car. Their early parking left a lot to be desired, encroaching on and sometimes crossing the line. I'd normally have been no more than 3 or 4 inches from the pillar on the drivers side and am plenty comfortable with tight spaces but when they encroached and were parked before me, I simply switched to parking as close as possible to the van leaving it impossible to open the drivers door of the van. Whenever the van was reasonably centred in the space or not there before me, I left as much room between us as physically possible. It didn't take very long to develop an understanding.

You don't have to go full tit for that, just use the extremes of your own space to develop the understanding that theres a need for mutual respect. If you're not fully comfortable getting really tight on their side, is there someone else who could do it for you a couple of times? Drive or reverse into the space such that it leaves your drivers door in the other side of the space.

andekwarhola

the_pen_turner wrote: »

surely it helps everybody by making everybody know that they have to respect everybody else

Try being a director on the board of a management company and it'll soon disabuse you of noble ideas like this.

It's hard enough taking responsibility for the estate, monitoring the agents; chasing people for fees and taking flak - all voluntarily and with little or no thanks from residents, I might add.

Last thing you need on your plate is to also have to adjudicate in every domestic spat that flares up between residents.

4ensic15

Carawaystick wrote: »

You could try light a fire under the landlords ass by getting the prtb involved.
Your landlord is not keeping their side of the bargain - supplying you a parking place.

The landlord is supplying a parking space! The landlord cannot be expected to stand in the parking space when the o/p is not parking in it to ensure that there is no encroachment onto it. Some parking spaces are leased with the apartment by the developer from the start and are not occupied by the management company who then merely own the fee simple reversion.
The dispute is between the o/p and the encroaching neighbour. The o/p should take photographs, call to the offenders door about the issue every time it happens, take more photos and then send a solicitors letter threatening an injunction together with a claim for damages for loss of amenity.

TheChizler

An injunction???

And what damages exactly have been suffered? It's an annoyance but nothing to sue over.

4ensic15

TheChizler wrote: »

An injunction???

And what damages exactly have been suffered? It's an annoyance but nothing to sue over.

There is trespass which is actionable without proof of damage and if the o/p cannot park in the parking space there is a loss of amenity which is interfering with their home and family life.

Wabbit Ears

Many moons ago we had a parking space which was beside a wall. This was an underground carpark. The space beside us had a pillar. Whoever owned the space constantly parked over the line making it possible to fit a car in between their car and the wall. We left notes and it never changed. The spaces weren't huge but the car was only a chiquichento sized yolk.


So one night we had friends over and after a few drinks a group of very pissed lads went down and shuffled the car so that it was centered and jammed between the wall and the pillar. No damage, just impossible to get out easily.

I'd like to say they stopped parking across the line but in truth we never ever saw the car in the carpark again. Made me feel kinda bad for a nonosecond.