New EU Laws on Ecigs out today

Zelda247

Anyone know what this is all about?

tommy2bad

Im gona take a wild guess you heard about this on BBC news site.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35216804
Actually these new laws are out since last year, they are part of the Tobacco Products Directive agreed by the European Parliament, article 20 to be precise. Its a set or rules and regulations governing the sale and manufacture of Electronic Nicotine Products (also covers devices which don't contain nicotine, I know! ) It comes into effect this year, end of April so first of May all products will have to comply.
Article 20 says;
* No liquid with more than 20mg nic may be placed on the market unless as a medical product.
* No container greater than 10ml may be used for the sale of liquids.
* No tank or cartridge greater than 2ml may be used.
* No product may be brought to market without prior 6 month notification.
* All advertising and sponsorship is banned.
* If 3 member states ban a single product, it may be banned in all member states

That's the guts of it, theirs more stuff about licencing, notification and standards to be met but those standards haven't been published yet and most individual states haven't yet announced what way their implementing the TPD into national law.

However we do know that big tanks are gone, all juice will be under 20mg and in 10ml plastic bottles with snouts, no more dropers or glass and add are verboten.
Theirs a requirement to have tanks leak free and refilling to be a spill proof mechanism,it could lead to only prefilled cartomisers being available, propitiatory refilling systems or just a limit on how drippy a bottle can be.

Theirs a period to allow for retailers to clear current stock so from May first expect to see the range of products reduce and be replaced with compliant products. Though its hard to tell if that will be 5 or 10 or 20 devices and juices.

28srf0c

So does that mean the end of the local vapey shops?

Also, who the **** is behind these laws? I don't want to be the tin foil hat guy, but it sounds like somebody knows exactly what is needed to destroy the current vape industry and give those cigalikes all the market share.

Anyway, I'll end up sourcing my stuff from overseas. It doesn't seem like it's going to be illegal to buy regular vape supplies online.

chipfox

Time to stock up on the 100mg/ml juice lads and ladies. I'm guessing this will be illegal after the legislation is transposed.

Zelda247

Its all crazy in my mind these things are really helping people stay away from tobacco and new both the users and suppliers are being crucified.....

Mightydrumming

How would fasttech work for 100ml hansgen/dekang juices after May?

Would customs grab a hold of them?

moleyv

To be honest, I'd say they won't let stuff pass through like they have done, now that it is being more regulated.

Bad news for us all.

I was going selling two subbox kits, but I think the tanks will be more valuable to me going forward than the cash.

Mightydrumming

moleyv wrote: »

To be honest, I'd say they won't let stuff pass through like they have done, now that it is being more regulated.

Bad news for us all.

Time to stock up

moleyv wrote: »

I was going selling two subbox kits, but I think the tanks will be more valuable to me going forward than the cash.

Aye, I'm doing the same myself!

moleyv

Its all speculation I guess. But if there is a sudden surge in orders from China due to restrictions here, they will likely take notice.

Just looking at my subtank, the tank and the atomiser have the CE marks, so certified to be sold in the EU.

I wonder does this mean future items won't.

The vast amount of our favourite equipment brands are China based. I wonder will they put in the effort to meet EU requirements or just leave it be. It will depend on what size of their market we are.

They won't be designing 2ml non leaking tanks with a 6 month period before being able to sell if they won't make money.

The worst of all, for me personally, will be 10ml bottles.

Mightydrumming

moleyv wrote: »

The worst of all, for me personally, will be 10ml bottles.

It's pathetic really! Bit of a sh!te for the likes of bargain vapour etc... I've been getting the 100mls of hangsen off them for a while now :mad:

El Guapo!

moleyv wrote: »

The worst of all, for me personally, will be 10ml bottles.

This bit does my head in as it makes zero sense.
I mean, what actually is the reasoning behind it??

Mightydrumming

El Guapo! wrote: »

This bit does my head in as it makes zero sense.
I mean, what actually is the reasoning behind it??

The supposed reasoning behind the 10ml bottle limit is based around the hazardous properties of nicotine.

Excuse me now whilst I run down to the local DIY shop and buy a 1000ml's of bleach...

8mm

Mightydrumming wrote: »

Excuse me now whilst I run down to the local DIY shop and buy a 1000ml's of bleach...

And store it under the sink - got to make sure a child doesn't have to reach.

Think of the children! :rolleyes:

Mightydrumming

8mm wrote: »

And store it under the sink - got to make sure a child doesn't have to reach.

Think of the children! :rolleyes:

Gotta think of the children :pac:

moleyv

Nicotine is poisonous in large volumes or if in concentrate.

I think some guy took his life recently with concentrate nicotine. Of course it was all over the papers that an e cigarette was the cause..

Its an attempt to keep purchases limited to small quantities.

I wonder will it be like paracetamol, 1 pack at a time....

Ironically, they get rid of ten packs of fags in favour of 20s...

Mightydrumming

moleyv wrote: »

Nicotine is poisonous in large volumes or if in concentrate.

I think some guy took his life recently with concentrate nicotine. Of course it was all over the papers that an e cigarette was the cause..

Along with bleach, weedkiller, rat poison etc.. all of which most of us have in our homes and could kill if in the wrong hands.

I don't see the difference

8mm

Lot's of media baloney...

http://blog.rursus.de/2013/12/attempting-to-commit-suicide-with-e-liquids-witless/

Supposedly there is enough nicotine in 5 cigarettes to kill a person.

http://www.ecigarettedirect.co.uk/ashtray-blog/2013/12/eliquid-nicotine-lethal-dose.html

moleyv

Mightydrumming wrote:

Along with bleach, weedkiller, rat poison etc.. all of which most of us have in our homes and could kill if in the wrong hands.

I agree with you. Except there is no lobbying by those with vested interest like the cigarette industry v vaping.

I'm not against regulation, far from it. But the new laws certainly benefit a small few rather than the industry as a whole.

RainMakerToo

Mightydrumming wrote: »

Along with bleach, weedkiller, rat poison etc.. all of which most of us have in our homes and could kill if in the wrong hands.

I'm pretty sure 2 litres of vodka would lead to alcohol poisoning in a child, yet large bottles of spirits don't even have a requirement to have child proof caps.

The power of lobbying I guess. I mean if were purely for health reasons, cigarettes at least and possibly alcohol would both be completely banned given their impact on health.

Mandelbrotset

Whilst there may be some plausible (although ludicrous) spin that they have attached to most of the terms in the new law, such as only 10ml - think of the children; leakproof - the device must me safe etc. There is zero valid safety reasoning on the 2ml capacity of any device, especially not a leak proof device, when 10ml can be sold in a bottle. The only reasoning is that they already have something in mind, and this device / liquid will certainly not be from a manufacturer we are currently buying from.

Anyway, all is kinda not lost,Totally Wicked in the UK took a case to their courts, and last year won the right to challenge Article 20 of the TPD in the European courts, if they win the whole bill will be thrown out.

"Specifically, this challenge is based on the view that Article 20 of the TPD represents a disproportionate impediment to the free movement of goods and the free provisions of services, places electronic cigarettes at an unjustified competitive disadvantage to tobacco products, fails to comply with the general EU principle of equality, and breaches the fundamental rights of electronic cigarette manufacturers and users."

The decision should be reached early this year, I would not be too hopeful though, the preliminary advice give to the judges that will make the judgement by the Advocate general, Juliane Kokott of the EU Court of Justice, pretty much says the law is fine as it is. An excerpt is posted below, TLDR' "Think of the children/we don't know they are not harmful"

"Advocate General Kokott emphasises in that regard that e-cigarettes are a novel
and — for large parts of the population at least — still relatively little known product for which there
is a rapidly developing market. In addition, it is not manifestly wrong or unreasonable to accept, in
adopting internal market harmonisation measures, that e-cigarettes possibly cause risks to human
health and that that product could — above all in the case of adolescents and young adults —
develop into a gateway to nicotine addiction and, ultimately, traditional tobacco consumption"

jonski

Mandelbrotset wrote: »

Whilst there may be some plausible (although ludicrous) spin that they have attached to most of the terms in the new law, such as only 10ml - think of the children; leakproof - the device must me safe etc. There is zero valid safety reasoning on the 2ml capacity of any device, especially not a leak proof device, when 10ml can be sold in a bottle. The only reasoning is that they already have something in mind, and this device / liquid will certainly not be from a manufacturer we are currently buying from.

Anyway, all is kinda not lost,Totally Wicked in the UK took a case to their courts, and last year won the right to challenge Article 20 of the TPD in the European courts, if they win the whole bill will be thrown out.

"Specifically, this challenge is based on the view that Article 20 of the TPD represents a disproportionate impediment to the free movement of goods and the free provisions of services, places electronic cigarettes at an unjustified competitive disadvantage to tobacco products, fails to comply with the general EU principle of equality, and breaches the fundamental rights of electronic cigarette manufacturers and users."

The decision should be reached early this year, I would not be too hopeful though, the preliminary advice give to the judges that will make the judgement by the Advocate general, Juliane Kokott of the EU Court of Justice, pretty much says the law is fine as it is. An excerpt is posted below, TLDR' "Think of the children/we don't know they are not harmful"

"Advocate General Kokott emphasises in that regard that e-cigarettes are a novel
and — for large parts of the population at least — still relatively little known product for which there
is a rapidly developing market. In addition, it is not manifestly wrong or unreasonable to accept, in
adopting internal market harmonisation measures, that e-cigarettes possibly cause risks to human
health and that that product could — above all in the case of adolescents and young adults —
develop into a gateway to nicotine addiction and, ultimately, traditional tobacco consumption"

God , I have a problem with all of the above but I have highlighted one particular section . Can anyone who has switched completely from smoking to vaping imagine a case where you would switch from vaping to smoking ?

RainMakerToo

Gateway arguments are a relic of prohibition of/war on drugs arguments, they are nonsense - purely for the Joe Duffy hysterical reaction brigade.

Personally I still smoke the occasional cigarette, usually when out drinking with friends. I usually get about half way through the cigarette before ditching it. Cigarettes are disgusting in comparison to vaping - the smell, the taste everything about them. It's like arguing that eating steaks is a gateway to McDonalds or something... absolute drivel!

moleyv

Yeah I had a fag there on a few nights out over Xmas when the liquid was running low.

Bloody horrid, no idea how I used to smoke them 'for the flavour'

was.deevey

What about non-nicotine Vaping, theres plenty zero nic juice out there.

I cant imagine you wont be able to buy the devices anymore to be honest not if the head shops can still sell pipes, skins and roaches

I'm sure the various vendors are planning their new mix-it-yourself packages:

1x 80ml of your favorite juice
2x10ml bottles of 20mg nicotine

Just an example - but where theres a will theres a way.

chipfox

I can see a lot of B&M shops selling the empty 30/50ml amber glass and labeling them as something else. Nothing illegal about selling a small glass bottle.

tommy2bad

chipfox wrote: »

I can see a lot of B&M shops selling the empty 30/50ml amber glass and labeling them as something else. Nothing illegal about selling a small glass bottle.

Multipacks? Like baked beans! Liqua Q already arrive to the shop in cardboard sleeved 5 packs.
It's a PITA but that's the way it is. For people starting out the 20mg, 10ml thing will be a put off but for an experienced vaper sub ohming at 3 mg, its even worse.....unless they get 10ml 20mg, and add 60ml zero nic in super strong flavor. Their are ways around this. Its going to depend on how the implementation is worded and more relevant enforced.
I have no idea who has the job of policing this so how well able to cope with the volume of application for authorization never mind finding unauthorised product or borderline cases like the dilute to taste example.
Time will tell and theirs always China.

8mm

tommy2bad wrote: »

Multipacks? Like baked beans! Liqua Q already arrive to the shop in cardboard sleeved 5 packs.

My inner hippy is not impressed with this extra plastic waste!

I was wondering why this was not nicotine based - ie 20mg in 10ml, 10mg in 20ml, 5mg in 30ml.

Sounds like that would be smart right? protect folk from the nasty nic. Na mate these bureaucrats are no fools - this is a move toward creating a taxable tobacco product, a 10ml packet of fags with a 80% sin tax added.