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Father Parental Leave problem.

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  • 02-01-2016 9:50pm
    #1
    cattolico
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭


    Ok. After many years of my wife asking me to take parental leave (which is NOT paid) I decided I would apply in 2016. Obviously as a father the best time to take the leave is summer when I can actually spend time with my children. My employer of 15 years does not want to let me take 2 weeks in July/August because there are 3 women on Maternity leave.

    I gave a years notice of my leave (2 weeks holidays in August followed by 2 weeks parental leave). I have never taken parent leave before.

    They want me to take the leave in June or sept, but I won't spend any more time with my children because they are at school.

    What really annoys me is that if a woman goes on Maternity leave the company will support HER and HER requirements and I don't have anything against that. Yet because I am a Man I can't take UNPAID leave when I want to do, yet a women can get maternity paid leave when she plans it.

    I hear it all the time in the office about women planning to get pregnant at certain times to get the summer off to look after their other children.

    However as a man I can't plan this and there is not legal requirement to make my employer give me the time off. (which is unpaid by the way)...

    So much for equality.


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    #2
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Nothing to do with equality, if you were a woman you probably would have had the same response. It's not like the women on leave are able to adjust the timing of their pregnancies and if a boss can't have four staff off at the same time it stands to reason the person who can change will be asked to do so.


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    #3
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Nothing to do with equality, if you were a woman you probably would have had the same response. It's not like the women on leave are able to adjust the timing of their pregnancies and if a boss can't have four staff off at the same time it stands to reason the person who can change will be asked to do so.

    Yeah parental leave is at employers discretion, trying to add it onto the mandatory two weeks that an employer must give you as annual leave would leave most employers struggling.

    Same rules for men as for women regarding parental leave, thing OP has it confused with paternity leave, which has just been introduced.


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    #4
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,669 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Such rights are usually doled out as part of the political parties vote buying exercise. Thus it is unsurprising both that it is poorly communicated to the end parties due to lack anything approaching a compresive strategy as well as the shifting of state promises onto businesses


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    #5
    CelticRambler
    Registered Users Posts: 6,703 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Nothing to do with equality, if you were a woman you probably would have had the same response. It's not like the women on leave are able to adjust the timing of their pregnancies ...

    They aren't? Funny then that three of the women in my family did exactly that. Being teachers, they timed their pregnancies (and subsequent return to work) so as to get the maximum benefit from their statutory maternity leave and paid leave during the summer holidays.


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    #6
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    CelticRambler wrote: »
    They aren't? Funny then that three of the women in my family did exactly that. Being teachers, they timed their pregnancies (and subsequent return to work) so as to get the maximum benefit from their statutory maternity leave and paid leave during the summer holidays.

    Is that relevant to the OP? He's talking about parental leave not paternity leave. Women are entitled to plan their pregnancies around what is best for them and their families if they can just as parents are entitled to organise parental leave at a time that suits them. I can understand the OP is annoyed but the women on leave can hardly be expected to come into work now can they? :rolleyes: It's bad timing nothing else and certainly not an equality issue.


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    #7
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,300 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    I agree with Stheno above. It looks like people are mixing up parental leave and maternity/paternity leave. They are two very different things.
    Maternity happens and can't be adjusted/negotiated like parental leave can.


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    #8
    CelticRambler
    Registered Users Posts: 6,703 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    parental leave and maternity/paternity leave. They are two very different things.
    Maternity happens and can't be adjusted/negotiated like parental leave can.

    Maternity can be planned, just as any other form of leave. As far as the employer's needs are concerned, there is no difference between parental leave, maternity leave or holiday. As far as the OP is concerned, there's a huge difference: his female colleagues can plan to be on maternity leave when it suits them; he can't. That is unequal treatment of the males and females in his workplace.


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    #9
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,890 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    The OP could plan to have another child in the summer so that they can avail of paternity leave, going to have to be for 2017 summer though. A woman wouldn't get parental leave with 3 other employees on maternity/paternity leave.


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    #10
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,300 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    CelticRambler wrote: »
    Maternity can be planned, just as any other form of leave.

    Where a woman is pregnant she will be taking maternity leave and an employer had better row in behind her or face the wrath of the abundance of legislation that backs up her right to this leave. Parental leave is not protected to even close to the same degree and provides employers with alot of leeway in how it is distributed to employees.


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    #11
    Lemming
    Registered Users Posts: 14,148 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    OP, rather than trying to "fight da powa" on parental leave which - has been pointed out - does not enjoy the same legal protections as maternity leave, why not try to book parental leave to coincide with either/and/or mid-term breaks to enjoy time with your children instead? If you can't go through the problem, go around it. Granted, it's not summer holidays, but it would appear that in this case with the scenario of three work colleagues all out on maternity leave you are banging your head against a brick wall with little likelihood of success.


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    #12
    cattolico
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭cattolico


    CelticRambler wrote: »
    They aren't? Funny then that three of the women in my family did exactly that. Being teachers, they timed their pregnancies (and subsequent return to work) so as to get the maximum benefit from their statutory maternity leave and paid leave during the summer holidays.

    Exactly!!! We had 4 women go on maternity leave the same month and all of them have the summer off. After they finish their 6 months paid leave they can take another 6 months unpaid.


    And Yes its planned, of course its planned, if I were a women I would plan it that way.

    Infant all the maternity leaves have and july/August in the leave.

    I have nothing against Maternity leave and the unpaid leave. But come on as a Guy I get the raw end of the stick here with ZERO paternity paid leave and having to beg to get unpaid leave in the summer.

    Don't get me wrong, my employer is very good and they pay me well. But as a Man I should be able to plan my leave the same way as a Woman plans hers. No?


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    #13
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,300 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    cattolico wrote: »
    Exactly!!! We had 4 women go on maternity leave the same month and all of them have the summer off. After they finish their 6 months paid leave they can take another 6 months unpaid.
    But that is not parental leave either. That is extended maternity leave. You are not comparing like with like. But yeah Fathers do get the sh*tty end of the stick around leave and childcare rights in general. Talk to your local TD is a better place to complain about this rather your employer.


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    #14
    cattolico
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭cattolico


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    But that is not parental leave either. That is extended maternity leave. You are not comparing like with like. But yeah Fathers do get the sh*tty end of the stick around leave and childcare rights in general. Talk to your local TD is a better place to complain about this rather your employer.

    Parental leave is pointless then. I'm lucky I can work my own hours so I can be around for the kids and collect them or bring them to school. But I feel in general that fathers honestly get the raw end of the stick on this issue.

    I would not mind, but a Women manager in the office took parental leave and holidays in July and August 3 times.


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    #15
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    cattolico wrote: »
    Exactly!!! We had 4 women go on maternity leave the same month and all of them have the summer off. After they finish their 6 months paid leave they can take another 6 months unpaid.


    And Yes its planned, of course its planned, if I were a women I would plan it that way.

    Infant all the maternity leaves have and july/August in the leave.

    I have nothing against Maternity leave and the unpaid leave. But come on as a Guy I get the raw end of the stick here with ZERO paternity paid leave and having to beg to get unpaid leave in the summer.

    Don't get me wrong, my employer is very good and they pay me well. But as a Man I should be able to plan my leave the same way as a Woman plans hers. No?

    12 months maternity leave would logically suggest that August/July would be part of the twelve months.
    cattolico wrote: »
    Parental leave is pointless then. I'm lucky I can work my own hours so I can be around for the kids and collect them or bring them to school. But I feel in general that fathers honestly get the raw end of the stick on this issue.

    I would not mind, but a Women manager in the office took parental leave and holidays in July and August 3 times.
    Bring that up with your employer and point out the discrepancy?


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    #16
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    cattolico wrote:
    I would not mind, but a Women manager in the office took parental leave and holidays in July and August 3 times.

    Were there 3 others on maternity leave at that time? If so then you have cause for complaint.

    Women do plan their pregnancies however their employer is stuck with them going on leave when they are two weeks from their due date at the latest (?)
    The employer has very little control over when they take leave they cant very well be asked to stay on an extra few weeks to facilitate discretionary leave. Parental leave is facilitated by employers where possible just like annual leave.

    Paternity leave when it comes in will be a protected leave and will not be at the discretion of employers.


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    #17
    cattolico
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭cattolico


    dottie_lottie wrote: »
    Were there 3 others on maternity leave at that time? If so then you have cause for complaint.

    Women do plan their pregnancies however their employer is stuck with them going on leave when they are two weeks from their due date at the latest (?)
    The employer has very little control over when they take leave they cant very well be asked to stay on an extra few weeks to facilitate discretionary leave. Parental leave is facilitated by employers where possible just like annual leave.

    Paternity leave when it comes in will be a protected leave and will not be at the discretion of employers.

    I am not going to jeopardise my career by making a complaint. But when it comes to equality there is clearly a double standard. The amount of times that mothers in the office take days off to look after their kids at short notice is higher than men (maybe men should step a little more).

    Anyway such is life. My job is flexible enough and when I need to cover for other people I get well compensated so I can't complain. Its just a pity I can't plan 2 weeks unpaid parental leave a year in advance without raising questions.

    They accommodate women far more then men.. I suppose this has a knock on effect on my wife, if there is an emergency she has to deal with it if I can't take the day off.


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    #18
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Men get two weeks paid paternity leave from 2016.

    I have never heard of parental leave. Is it on top of statutory holidays?


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    #19
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Men get two weeks paid paternity leave from 2016.

    I have never heard of parental leave. Is it on top of statutory holidays?
    Yes, you can get up to 18 weeks per child up to age 8

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/parental_leave.html


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    #20
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,300 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Men get two weeks paid paternity leave from 2016.

    No they don't.
    There is a plan to grant 2 weeks paternity leave by a government heading into a general election. They may not win the election. The earliest it will be introduced is September 2016. The same government said there would be free GP care, no property tax and no increased college fees. I will believe it when it happens and not a second before.


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    #21
    Dial Hard
    Registered Users Posts: 13,401 ✭✭✭✭Dial Hard


    cattolico wrote:
    And Yes its planned, of course its planned, if I were a women I would plan it that way.


    Not all pregnancies are planned, you know.


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    #22
    Maguined
    Registered Users Posts: 8,247 ✭✭✭Maguined


    Parental leave is supposed to be used to care for children not as extra holidays.


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    #23
    wuffly
    Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭wuffly


    Does parental leave not apply to both parents?
    If so unless a woman is being given preference for parental leave over you, which would obviously be unfair and unreasonable, where is the discrimination?


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    #24
    DSN
    Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭DSN


    Maguined wrote: »
    Parental leave is supposed to be used to care for children not as extra holidays.

    Huh? I think he wants to have the leave in the summer indeed to care for his children as they off school!! rather than in June / Sept when they most of the day IN school. whether he chooses to take them on holidays or hang out with them at home has nothing to do with it!!

    OP - while I don't think your example is discriminatory (you cannot compare parental to maternity leave however much you might want to) But it would be discriminatory if a woman (or any other colleague) got parental under the same circumstances & you didn't. It is ****ty though now you can try maybe for the 2 weeks at Easter instead or week at mid term & easter something like that. & next year ask (well in advance!) again they cannot refuse you twice (or three times - cant remember exactly - but there's some rule around that)

    Also - you say women get way more leeway on sick days etc I would definitely say the men much less inclined to ask for it than women - in my experience anyway!!!! My other half takes parental every summer too to cover days I work & he loves it!!! Doesn't do him any favours in work (he the only guy to do it)but they have to ok it because a precedent has been set & their summers tend to be quieter work wise. Kids are older now & don't wanna be in childcare during their hols & he glad to make the most of it with them while he can.


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    #25
    Maguined
    Registered Users Posts: 8,247 ✭✭✭Maguined


    DSN wrote: »
    Huh? I think he wants to have the leave in the summer indeed to care for his children as they off school!! rather than in June / Sept when they most of the day IN school. whether he chooses to take them on holidays or hang out with them at home has nothing to do with it!!

    Hanging out with them at home is not the same thing as caring for them. The purpose of this is for circustances where care is needed not to give families extra bonding time for the craic.

    The OP does not paint a picture that circumstances have changed in their familiy where the current care cannot be provided and so he would need to provide care for the kids and need the leave. Instead it is just asking for extra time off work to spend with the kids.

    One of my colleagues in work took parental leave. His wife needed eye surgey that meant she could not care for the kids while she was recovering and they had no family able to help so he was able to arrange parental leave so he could care for the children while she recovered. That is the purpose of parental leave. To suggest that someone be denied their maternity leave in order to prioritse parental leave for fatherly bonding is pretty selfish.
    cattolico wrote: »
    Ok. After many years of my wife asking me to take parental leave (which is NOT paid) I decided I would apply in 2016. Obviously as a father the best time to take the leave is summer when I can actually spend time with my children. My employer of 15 years does not want to let me take 2 weeks in July/August because there are 3 women on Maternity leave.


    They want me to take the leave in June or sept, but I won't spend any more time with my children because they are at school.


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    #26
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,300 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Maguined wrote: »
    The purpose of this is for circustances where care is needed not to give families extra bonding time for the craic.

    The OP does not paint a picture that circumstances have changed in their familiy where the current care cannot be provided and so he would need to provide care for the kids and need the leave. Instead it is just asking for extra time off work to spend with the kids.

    One of my colleagues in work took parental leave. His wife needed eye surgey that meant she could not care for the kids while she was recovering and they had no family able to help so he was able to arrange parental leave so he could care for the children while she recovered. That is the purpose of parental leave.

    Why do you think this is the case out of interest? I would have thought bonding was a perfectly valid reason. Just had a quick skim of the act which didn't change my mind.


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    #27
    Diamond Doll
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,344 ✭✭✭Diamond Doll


    Maguined wrote: »
    Hanging out with them at home is not the same thing as caring for them. The purpose of this is for circustances where care is needed not to give families extra bonding time for the craic.

    The OP does not paint a picture that circumstances have changed in their familiy where the current care cannot be provided and so he would need to provide care for the kids and need the leave. Instead it is just asking for extra time off work to spend with the kids.

    One of my colleagues in work took parental leave. His wife needed eye surgey that meant she could not care for the kids while she was recovering and they had no family able to help so he was able to arrange parental leave so he could care for the children while she recovered. That is the purpose of parental leave. To suggest that someone be denied their maternity leave in order to prioritse parental leave for fatherly bonding is pretty selfish.

    Maybe you're mixing up parental leave with compassionate leave or force majeure leave or similar?

    There is no requirement to provide any reason or justification for taking parental leave.


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    #28
    Maguined
    Registered Users Posts: 8,247 ✭✭✭Maguined


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Why do you think this is the case out of interest? I would have thought bonding was a perfectly valid reason. Just had a quick skim of the act which didn't change my mind.
    Diamond Doll wrote: »
    Maybe you're mixing up parental leave with compassionate leave or force majeure leave or similar?

    There is no requirement to provide any reason or justification for taking parental leave.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/parental_leave.html
    12.—(1) The entitlement to parental leave is subject to the condition that it is used to take care of the child concerned.


    (2) Where an employer has reasonable grounds for believing that an employee of his or hers who is on parental leave is not using the leave for the purpose of taking care of the child concerned, the employer may, by notice in writing given to the employee, terminate the leave and the notice shall contain a statement in summary form of the grounds for terminating the leave and shall specify the day (being a day not later than the date of the end of the period of the leave specified in the confirmation document concerned nor, subject to the foregoing requirement, earlier than 7 days after the date of the receipt by the employee concerned of the notice).

    You can argue that bonding qualifies as caring for the child (which I presonally would not agree with) but parental leave certainly has to be justified.


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    #29
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,300 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Ah man of course it does. The reason for the caveat is to stop someone using parental leave to go to the Euros or World Cup. Once you have some level of access to the kids I would say there are no issues.


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    #30
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Maguined wrote: »
    Instead it is just asking for extra time off work to spend with the kids.
    Which qualifies as "caring" for them.

    You're getting confused with force majeure. Parental leave is for parents to care for their children. It does not require that circumstances have changed or that there isn't someone else available to care for the children. It is perfectly appropriate and legal for both parents to take parental leave at the same time if they want.

    In fact the relevant act specifically deals with parental leave and force majeure separately. The latter is a special type of leave used when the parent's presence is "indispensable". Which implies that parental leave applies regardless of whether the parent's presence is required.

    As Pawwed Rig points out, the clause on abuse is to prevent people from taking parental leave and then going to the pub for two weeks.


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    #31
    Sunny Dayz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,306 ✭✭✭Sunny Dayz


    OP your colleagues maternity leave has to take precedence over other leave in the organisation, it is a statutory entitlement and tbh can't be avoided, your pregnant co-workers can't very well change the due dates at this stage!! As a result of staffing levels being so low, you employer would even be able to stop people taking annual leave, never mind parental leave if there is not enough staffing available and to recommend that you take your leave outside of July/August.


    OP is there any way you could take even one or two days off per week in the Summer months, it might make it a bit easier on childcare. Otherwise I would suggest looking to take your leave at Easter (I think they have longer off this year). You could also look at taking mid terms. Would it also work to take one day off per week while the kids are in term, my sister in law did this she took every Friday off work as parental leave, it meant she only needed her childminder from Mon-Thurs.


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