UK/Irish/private pension and retirement

DrPhilG

Hi all…

I’m doing a bit of forward planning regarding retirement and just want to make sure I’m getting my figures right. Obviously these are rough estimates at this stage.

I am Irish born and bred, but have spent most of my working life employed in the UK. I worked about 2 years in Ireland before getting a job in the North and have been there since. I’m late 30s now, but I’m hoping to have enough in savings to be able to retire at 55. I’m trying to work out my pension income at that stage in order to see what the shortfall between wages and pension is, to see how much I need to have saved so that I can bridge the gap between stopping work and getting the full pension.

I have an NHS pension that will allow me to retire at 55, but with a reduced lump sum and annual figure than if I went at 68 of course. My understanding is that I can claim the Irish state pension (non contributory) at 66, then the UK state pension at 68 but that will be deducted from my Irish pension (which is higher I believe). Am I right in saying that the NHS pension will not affect either state pension? So if I did retire at 55 I would only have the reduced NHS pension, then at 66 the Irish state pension of €220 a week would come in. At 68 I would claim the UK state pension but it wouldn’t change my total because the equivalent amount would be deducted from my Irish pension?

My wife is in almost the same position except that she is originally from the North and has never worked in Ireland. We have both been resident in Ireland for the past 6 years.

And one final question, I have a second property in Ireland that I rent out. Does that affect anything in terms of pensions? The tax I pay on that income doesn’t count as contributions to my pension does it?

Thanks!

haveringchick

When you apply for a Non con Irish state pension in 30+ years time whatever pension you and your wife have from NHS pension or any other pension will be deducted euro for Euro from what is currently €219 per week

haveringchick

See here

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/means_test_for_social_welfare_payments/means_test.html

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/older_and_retired_people/state_pension_non_contributory.html

For information regarding how your rental property will be considered in the means test
I would advise though, that a lot of us think that there will be huge changes in SW pension long before you reach pension age
The current government are planning a huge overhaul and as our current SW spend is unmanageable going forward I cannot see these rules being relaxed at all

DrPhilG

haveringchick wrote: »

When you apply for a Non con Irish state pension in 30+ years time whatever pension you and your wife have from NHS pension or any other pension will be deducted euro for Euro from what is currently €219 per week

My private NHS pension will also be deducted from the state pension?

ARE you sure? The UK state pension is not reduced by the NHS one so if you're correct then I'd be wasting my time claiming the Irish pension as the UK one combined with NHS pension would be more than the Irish one.

haveringchick

DrPhilG wrote: »

My private NHS pension will also be deducted from the state pension?

ARE you sure? The UK state pension is not reduced by the NHS one so if you're correct then I'd be wasting my time claiming the Irish pension as the UK one combined with NHS pension would be more than the Irish one.

I'm sure
If you download the actual non con pension application form you will see how thorough the means test is
Your UK state pension will not be reduced by your NHS pension because, as is the case here with the Irish CONTRIBUTORY pension the UK State pension is insurance based, and as such there is no means test
In other words, both here and in the UK, if you have worked for long enough and paid PRSI/NI you will get your state pension contributory, even if you win the Lotto tonight
If you haven't paid PRSI or enough PRSI and you apply for an old age pension via Non Con Application then you are saying"I'm retired now and I do not have enough means to live on week to week".
SW then ask you to give them evidence of what your means are (in your case the pensions from both Uk State and NHS of both you and your wife, plus the property you own but do not live in, plus your savings shares or investments in excess of €40000) and they will decide if by their calculations you are entitled to a top up.
As you yourself have said, this would seem unlikely.
I hope I've explained this sufficiently to you.

DrPhilG

haveringchick wrote: »

I hope I've explained this sufficiently to you.

Yeah makes sense now.

Balls...

haveringchick

DrPhilG wrote: »

Yeah makes sense now.

Balls...

Ok plan B so!

DrPhilG

haveringchick wrote: »

Ok plan B so!

Sadly plan B = both of us work an extra 5 years!

DrPhilG

UK state pension calculator is telling me that I'll only get £70 a week!

NHS pension if I go at 55 will be £140. About £170 if I go at 60.

haveringchick

Aiming to retire at 55 is a bit ambitious though, do you not agree?

DrPhilG

haveringchick wrote: »

Aiming to retire at 55 is a bit ambitious though, do you not agree?

It is, but it would have been possible for me if not for the Irish non-con pension being means tested.

I can still get out at 60 though comfortably. And I'll be looking into why the UK pension estimate is so low. It is telling me £70 a week an that's based on me working until 68. But even if I stop working at 60 I'll have paid tax in the UK for 40 years.

haveringchick

DrPhilG wrote: »

It is, but it would have been possible for me if not for the Irish non-con pension being means tested.

I can still get out at 60 though comfortably. And I'll be looking into why the UK pension estimate is so low. It is telling me £70 a week an that's based on me working until 68. But even if I stop working at 60 I'll have paid tax in the UK for 40 years.

Irish pension is far more generous then UK pension
You do understand that if you've made no contributions or very little to the Irish system that the means test is fair

DrPhilG

haveringchick wrote: »

Irish pension is far more generous then UK pension
You do understand that if you've made no contributions or very little to the Irish system that the means test is fair

Absolutely, I'm not saying that it's unfair at all.

What does bug me is that I will work and contribute to the UK system for 40+ years and then as soon as I stop working I will lose my free healthcare!

But that's a different topic, lol.

BowWow

Haveringchick,

Not an expert in your field, but given that the OP is now in his late 30's, isn't it probable that he wont be able to apply for an Irish Non-Con pension till he's 68 - given that our pension age goes to 67 in 2021 and 68 in 2028?

haveringchick

BowWow wrote: »

Haveringchick,

Not an expert in your field, but given that the OP is now in his late 30's, isn't it probable that he wont be able to apply for an Irish Non-Con pension till he's 68 - given that our pension age goes to 67 in 2021 and 68 in 2028?

That's why I suggested it would be 30+ years before he would be applying!

NIMAN

haveringchick wrote: »

Aiming to retire at 55 is a bit ambitious though, do you not agree?

I'm afraid for PhilG it probably is.

I am in a similar situation to him, live in Ireland but work in UK and have a private company pension. When I started it nearly 20 years ago I put down 55 as my retirement age. I'm late 40s now.

Recently we had a presentation from the pension supplier, and this combined with the figures I am seeing in my pot, means I'm lookng more at 65 and not 55 for retiring.

Unfortunately.

Mrs OBumble

Why would the OP be applying for a non-con state pension?

I thought there was a bi-lateral agreement with lots of countries, meaning that contributions from one count in the other - and that surely the UK would be one of these countries?

DrPhilG

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Why would the OP be applying for a non-con state pension?

I thought there was a bi-lateral agreement with lots of countries, meaning that contributions from one count in the other - and that surely the UK would be one of these countries?

That would be great news, but I'm not optimistic.

Charles Babbage

The OP will receive the NHS pension and the UK contributory pension, so will not hardly be eligible for any non contributory Irish pension on means grounds. The only way around this might be to work in Republic after retirement at 55 to get 10 years of stamps and get into the contributory scheme.

DrPhilG

Charles Babbage wrote: »

The OP will receive the NHS pension and the UK contributory pension, so will not hardly be eligible for any non contributory Irish pension on means grounds. The only way around this might be to work in Republic after retirement at 55 to get 10 years of stamps and get into the contributory scheme.

But Mrs O'Bumble is suggesting that the UK contributions are transferable and therefore I would be able to apply for an Irish contributory pension instead of a UK one.

Pretty certain it doesn't work that way though.

Regarding the working for 10 years in Ireland thing, does it have to be full time?

I currently work a full time job and a part time one. I'd gladly seek out an Irish part time job instead of my Northern one.

lasno

The OP mentioned health care after retirement. Your UK social insurance should entitle you to a non means tested medical card. The same applies if you are in receipt of the UK state pension. Have a read if this.....

http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabroad/countryguide/Pages/healthcareinIreland.aspx

DrPhilG

lasno wrote: »

The OP mentioned health care after retirement. Your UK social insurance should entitle you to a non means tested medical card. The same applies if you are in receipt of the UK state pension. Have a read if this.....

http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabroad/countryguide/Pages/healthcareinIreland.aspx

Fantastic, that looks very promising!

DrPhilG

lasno wrote: »

The OP mentioned health care after retirement. Your UK social insurance should entitle you to a non means tested medical card. The same applies if you are in receipt of the UK state pension. Have a read if this.....

http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabroad/countryguide/Pages/healthcareinIreland.aspx

Edit...
"UK citizens who come to live, work and study in Ireland or to retire are eligible for a medical card provided they are covered by UK social insurance or have a UK State Pension. The medical card entitles you to receive certain health services free of charge. UK citizens are usually asked to produce some evidence of their entitlement to healthcare in Ireland, such as proof of property rental or ownership."

I'm not a UK citizen. I'm an Irish citizen working in the UK. My wife is a UK citizen though?

haveringchick

DrPhilG wrote: »

Edit...
"UK citizens who come to live, work and study in Ireland or to retire are eligible for a medical card provided they are covered by UK social insurance or have a UK State Pension. The medical card entitles you to receive certain health services free of charge. UK citizens are usually asked to produce some evidence of their entitlement to healthcare in Ireland, such as proof of property rental or ownership."

I'm not a UK citizen. I'm an Irish citizen working in the UK. My wife is a UK citizen though?

Citizenship doesn't come into it.

Under the current rules, if you are living in Ireland and your entire income is from another EEA state then you qualify for a Medical Card under EU regulations
If you have even €1 income from Ireland then ALL of your income will be means tested

lasno

You will still qualify for the medical card on receipt of the UK state pension, provided you are not in receipt of any Irish state contributory pension.
I receive the UK state pension and obtained the medical card on that basis.

Entitlement under EU Regulations

If you are getting a social security pension from another EU/EEA country or Switzerland, or if you are working and paying social insurance in one of these countries, you may qualify for a medical card under EU rules if you are ordinarily resident in Ireland.

You must not be subject to Irish social security legislation. This means that you must not be in receipt of a contributory Irish social welfare payment or be working in Ireland and be liable to pay PRSI.

If you are living in Ireland and you are the dependant of a pensioner entitled under EU Regulations, or are the dependant of a person who is working in another country covered by the Regulations, you may be eligible for a medical card. You must not be subject to Irish social security legislation (in the case of child dependants this rule applies to the spouse or person looking after them).

Posted workers and their dependants may also qualify for the medical card. These are workers who are employed in another country covered by the regulations but are sent by their employers to work in Ireland for a limited time.

DrPhilG

haveringchick wrote: »

Citizenship doesn't come into it.

Under the current rules, if you are living in Ireland and your entire income is from another EEA state then you qualify for a Medical Card under EU regulations
If you have even €1 income from Ireland then ALL of your income will be means tested

I have a rental income in Ireland.

So as things stand I'm back to square one and wouldn't get a medical card.

But if I sell my rental property before retirement then I wouldn't have an Irish income so would that then qualify me?

This gets ever more confusing...

Haveringchick you seem to know your stuff on all of this. Can I ask who I would need to sit down with and hash it all out? Citizens advice or someone?

lasno

If you are in receipt of the UK state pension then you will get the card, your Irish income is not relevant so long as it is not from an Irish contributory welfare payment and you are not working in Ireland. These are the rules and I am also speaking from personal experience.

DrPhilG

lasno wrote: »

If you are in receipt of the UK state pension then you will get the card, your Irish income is not relevant so long as it is not from an Irish contributory welfare payment and you are not working in Ireland. These are the rules and I am also speaking from personal experience.

Thats great, thanks.

I worked a few years in Ireland in my teens, but since then I have worked in N Ireland until now and my only income in Ireland has been a small inheritance from a late relative and some rental income from a house I own.

lasno

The problem would be that if your previous insurance contributions in Ireland entitled you to even a tiny Irish contributory pension then you would not be entitled to the non means tested card. You would have to apply under the means tested system and all your income would be taken into consideration.

Graces7

haveringchick wrote: »

Irish pension is far more generous then UK pension
You do understand that if you've made no contributions or very little to the Irish system that the means test is fair

Certainly is! I reached UK retirement age after I moved to Ireland. I was on UK Incapacity and had qualified for eg Household Benefits etc. After I reached 70 I was told I could get my UK pension topped up. The difference is .. great and was most unexpected.

DrPhilG

lasno wrote: »

The problem would be that if your previous insurance contributions in Ireland entitled you to even a tiny Irish contributory pension then you would not be entitled to the non means tested card. You would have to apply under the means tested system and all your income would be taken into consideration.

LOL, this thread is a rollercoaster of good news-bad news-good news-bad news...

So how many years would I need to have worked to qualify for a tiny contributary pension? My contributions are a grand total of about 2 and a half years in the late 90s earning approximately IR£13k a year gross.

And I presume that the tax I pay on my rental income does not count as contributing towards an Irish pension?

lasno

Here is a nice read for you.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/older_and_retired_people/state_pension_contributory.html

haveringchick

lasno wrote: »

Here is a nice read for you.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/older_and_retired_people/state_pension_contributory.html

I posted that on page 1

lasno

Well done