AIR rifles hunting

Jayharte12212

Hello guys I was just wondering I'm getting my airgun in a month or two and I was wondering do i need to have a licence to hunt vermin and I've read a few threads on this saying you cannot hunt fauna and I just need to know is it true I asked a friend and he said his not sure about that with air rifles

LIFFY FISHING

Jayharte12212 wrote: »

Hello guys I was just wondering I'm getting my airgun in a month or two and I was wondering do i need to have a licence to hunt vermin and I've read a few threads on this saying you cannot hunt fauna and I just need to know is it true I asked a friend and he said his not sure about that with air rifles

If you intend to hunt with your air rifle you should have filled in the relevant section of the firearm application form, where it ask you fo you intend to hunt with your firearm.
If you ticked that section you will of had to supply a game club membership or written permission from a land owner who will allow you to hunt on his ground.
Although not a legal requirement it is highly adviseable to get yourself shooting insurance.

There are some people who have firearms registered to a shooting range are of the impression that they can use these firearms to hunt, that is not the case, careful consideration should always be made when filling in a firearm application, as it is not a cover all situation.

Jayharte12212

Jayharte12212 wrote: »

Hello guys I was just wondering I'm getting my airgun in a month or two and I was wondering do i need to have a licence to hunt vermin and I've read a few threads on this saying you cannot hunt fauna and I just need to know is it true I asked a friend and he said his not sure about that with air rifles

I was told before than you cannot hunt any game on any Irish land with a air rifle no matter what the case is that you can only get rid of rats ect

Eddie B

Jayharte12212 wrote: »

I was told before than you cannot hunt any game on any Irish land with a air rifle no matter what the case is that you can only get rid of rats ect

If you want to hunt game, then why not go for a shotgun lad! You can only shoot rabbit's, rats, and crows/mags ( under derogation) with an air rifle, so very limited to what you can hunt with it!

extremetaz

The important distiction here is the difference between 'game' and 'vermin or pests'.

Game suggests birds for the most part - pheasant, duck, pigeon, etc...
No game bird may be shot with anything but a shotgun - period! If you want to shoot them, that's what you'll need.

Vermin or pests however are a different thing entirely - rats, rabbits and fox for example may all be shot with whatever you fancy. Having said that an air rifle would only be suitable for the first two.

Where it gets interesting however is when you look at the annual ministerial wildlife derogations - this document provides the grounds to shoot, with a rifle in most cases (and air-rifle is included in this catagorisation), any of the listed pests, for the reasons specified; and here you will find most corvids, as well as pidgeon.

At this point it is only prudent to also mention that as a rule *all* birds are protected and may not be shot (with anything), trapped, poisoned or otherwise dispatched under any circumstances unless they are a game bird and at a time during game season (and in this case it's shotgun only), or they are mentioned in the linked document (in which case only by the means stated).

extremetaz

Eddie B wrote: »

If you want to hunt game, then why not go for a shotgun lad! You can only shoot rabbit's, rats, and crows/mags ( under derogation) with an air rifle, so very limited to what you can hunt with it!

As to and air rifle being very limited to what you can hunt with it, that can be said of pretty much any firearm depending on the circumstance (quarry size, range, and nature; for control or for eating; terrain; running costs; etc...).

You wouldn't be likely to use a shotgun in a farmyard for example - so air certainly has its place; but having said that the above is entirely correct if the OP wants to get out into open fields or go for birds, although there's definitely no one-fits-all solution there either.

extremetaz

LIFFY FISHING wrote: »

There are some people who have firearms registered to a shooting range are of the impression that they can use these firearms to hunt, that is not the case, careful consideration should always be made when filling in a firearm application, as it is not a cover all situation.

...are you sure?

My licences are granted for both roles so it doesn't concern me personally one way or the other, but my understanding is that you apply for the licence under the "primary" use for the firearm, not the "exclusive" use for the firearm.

I'm perfectly happy to revise that position if you can direct me to the relevent section of the legislation.

goz83

extremetaz wrote: »

...are you sure?

My licences are granted for both roles so it doesn't concern me personally one way or the other, but my understanding is that you apply for the licence under the "primary" use for the firearm, not the "exclusive" use for the firearm.

I'm perfectly happy to revise that position if you can direct me to the relevent section of the legislation.

I know I have just filled out my fca1 forms and it didn't say to tick one box. I selected target shooting AND hunting.

I have heard (but cannot be sure) that the range i'm joining has land to hunt on. Might be a load of BS, but would be a nice bonus.

extremetaz

goz83 wrote: »

I know I have just filled out my fca1 forms and it didn't say to tick one box. I selected target shooting AND hunting.

Yup, that's what I do as well, and I produce the land permissions and the range membership with the application - however, the point I'm making is that I'm not of the impression that that sort of dual purpose application is actually *required* as Liffy Fishing suggests. My understanding is that you licence a firearm based on a requirement, but there's no blanket limitation with regard to the use of the firearm in other roles inherent in a 'single purpose' application.

For example, I am of the impression that were I to licence a shotgun specifically for pest control; then that does not proclude me from using that shotgun to hunt game fowl (all other considerations met of course), or attend a clay target range.

Similarly were I to licence a .223 for foxing, it's my understanding that there's nothing to stop me from, a year later or so, joining Midlands and taking the same rifle, with the same licence, onto the target range.

and as I understand it, the opposite scenario's apply just as equally, the fundamental point being that you have proof of at least one good reason to own the firearm - not that the firearm may only be used for one good reason.

LIFFY FISHING

When filling in a firearm application you have to complete a section which is the purpose of requiring this type of firearm.
Not all firearms are the same and some are not suitable for the crossover sport of Target Shooting / Hunting.
There are two different sections to be completed on the application, one section clearly designates a shooting range, the second a gun club( game club/ hunting).
The range requires you to submit a range membership, for hunting either membership of a game club or hunting permissions.
simply ticking "both" without completing the requirements of "both" criteria, is yet again the misunderstanding of the people issuing licences.
Is it any wonder that there are so many different stories from Garda station to station.

extremetaz

LIFFY FISHING wrote: »

There are two different sections to be completed on the application, one section clearly designates a shooting range, the second a gun club( game club/ hunting).
The range requires you to submit a range membership, for hunting either membership of a game club or hunting permissions.
simply ticking "both" without completing the requirements of "both" criteria, is yet again the misunderstanding of the people issuing licences.
Is it any wonder that there are so many different stories from Garda station to station.

Right, that's all fine and correct but it doesn't answer my question - what is the source material for your assertion than a firearm may only be used *exclusively* for the purpose for which is was licenced?

I don't believe that assertion to be accurate.

LIFFY FISHING

extremetaz wrote: »

Right, that's all fine and correct but it doesn't answer my question - what is the source material for your assertion than a firearm may only be used *exclusively* for the purpose for which is was licenced?

I don't believe that assertion to be accurate.

An indept discussion with my FAO, as a very simular question arrose in my club, whereby a lad got a .223 registered to a range, took it out lamping foxes and was stopped by AGS and the hole question came up as to the purpose to which his licence was granted.
I dont make the rules, I am simply conveying what I was told & like I say I have heard so many different senarios regarding firearm been issued I often wonder where it will stop.
Met a lad the other evening got a .243 for vermin control !!!

hexosan

Why not simply ring the firearms policy unit. Personally I think people completely over think this and like extreme I'd be interested in see where in the act it's stated the firearm can only be used for one purpose (if originally one box ticked). The section liffy refers to is Sec 4.3 on the FCA1 form and this is for including details of a rifle or pistol club. This is only one of the ways to prove grounds for requiring a firearm, if going the route of land permission these have always been provided on a separate piece of paper.

I've have yet to find or be shown where it states that if you tick hunting you can't do target or vermin control and vice versa. There's a lot of well Johnny in the pub was told this or that, show one instance where gardai successfully prosecuted anyone nation wide for this, heck I'd even accept the alleged offence they'd be charged with.
There seems to be as much scaremongering done on the shooters side as is allegedly done by the gardai.

****Unless the super specifically places a condition on the licence like only to be used for target shooting or hunting I can't see there been an issue.

extremetaz

LIFFY FISHING wrote: »

An indept discussion with my FAO, as a very simular question arrose in my club, whereby a lad got a .223 registered to a range, took it out lamping foxes and was stopped by AGS and the hole question came up as to the purpose to which his licence was granted.

No disrespect to FAO's, I get along great with mine, but they're only a random uniform given the job; the position doesn't require any expertise and from what I understand it's regarded more as a chore than anything else.

In my experience, anybody who winds up having their licence grant conditions questioned has either been spotted out in the fields by a hyperactive neighbour and had the boys called on them in which case there's likely nothing to worry about (such as your boy above in my estimation); or is genuinely doing something a bit daft which has drawn attention to them, in which case it's probably just as well.

LIFFY FISHING wrote: »

Met a lad the other evening got a .243 for vermin control !!!

Well, fox falls into that catagory, and it's a good flat rifle for the job, whilst still having the option for deer later on if you're that way inclined, so it's not entirely mental - but I wouldn't be going after rabbit with it.

goz83

hexosan wrote: »

Why not simply ring the firearms policy unit. Personally I think people completely over think this and like extreme I'd be interested in see where in the act it's stated the firearm can only be used for one purpose (if originally one box ticked). The section liffy refers to is Sec 4.3 on the FCA1 form and this is for including details of a rifle or pistol club. This is only one of the ways to prove grounds for requiring a firearm, if going the route of land permission these have always been provided on a separate piece of paper.

I've have yet to find or be shown where it states that if you tick hunting you can't do target or vermin control and vice versa. There's a lot of well Johnny in the pub was told this or that, show one instance where gardai successfully prosecuted anyone nation wide for this, heck I'd even accept the alleged offence they'd be charged with.
There seems to be as much scaremongering done on the shooters side as is allegedly done by the gardai.

****Unless the super specifically places a condition on the licence like only to be used for target shooting or hunting I can't see there been an issue.

I see a lot of sense in this post. If someone applies for a firearms license and ticks the box for target practice, unless the license is granted with such a restriction attached, I can't see why that same license cannot be used to hunt, assuming the firearm is suitable for hunting (FE - it is not a pistol and meets the legal requirement for hunting the intended prey). After all, the license is for the applicant to use the firearm and there are no mentions on the license to state the allowable use. It's only fair that a license holder who got a license for target practice is allowed to use his/her firearm to hunt (if legal), assuming the correct permissions are sought and received.

That said, I believe one should declare on their application, every intended use for the firearm, which I believe is a requirement when completing on fca1.

barnaman

Hope this helps lads Wildlife Act 1976 s.29 states you need a licence to hunt game and that gun application licence doubles up as application to hunt game where you indicate on the gun application licence that the purpose of the licence is hunting. Criminal Justice Act 2007 provides for the revocation of a firearm licence where a firearm is being used for a purpose other than in respect of which it certificate was issued. Shooting game without a hunting licence is a criminal offence and you will lose your licence. Liffey is right alot lads seem to think licence for a gun means can use it for anything ie a shotgun is obviously fit for shooting pheasants etc not just clays but if issued for targets all can be used for. Also seperate licence required to shoot penned birds.

You can only target shoot at an approved range so cannot just stick up targets in a field to shoot at. Shooting at a range will require that the shotgun is certified for that purpose.

Vermin control varies and can require a derogation which is issued to the farmer.

Relevant bit from Wildlife Act

(5) Where a person applies to a Superintendent of the Garda Síochána for the grant under section 3 of the Firearms Act, 1925 , of a firearm certificate or the renewal under section 9 of the Firearms Act, 1964 , of such a certificate and when making the application for such certificate or renewal the person makes a declaration referred to in subsection (1) of this section, the certificate shall, if it is endorsed in the manner described in subsection (8) of this section, for the purposes of sections 22 (4) and 23 (5) of this Act be deemed to be a licence granted by the Minister under this section and, subject to section 75 (1) and to the restrictions contained in section 33 of this Act, such certificate shall, for so long as it is in force, operate to authorise the person to whom it is granted, with the firearm to which the certificate relates—

(a) to hunt and kill pursuant to any order under section 24 of this Act which for the time being is in force any protected wild bird,

(b) to hunt and kill pursuant to and in accordance with any order under section 25 of this Act which is so in force any hare.

barnaman

http://www.garda.ie/Documents/User/Commissioners%20Guidelines%20%28as%20amended%2022nd%20Oct%29%20in%20relation%20to%20Firearms%20Licensing%5B1%5D.pdf

May also help and what it says about foxes and rifles

Rifles – Fox culling


Centrefire rifles of calibres .220 inch or .223inch have become popular for fox control.Their safe use requires a greater degree of skill and responsibility by the shooter. Rifles
such as these are more suited to highland areas where natural hill backstops are easier to find. Their use in lowland areas or at night presents added danger to the public or livestock. Shooting foxes is not a sport and therefore their culling in areas where their activities are not interfering with farming may not be a ‘Good Reason’ to possess a firearm for that purpose. Centre-fire rifles used for fox culling are usually bolt-action hunting rifles. A semi-automatic or a variant of a military assault or bullpup rifle is more dangerous and no more effective.

extremetaz

barnaman wrote: »

Hope this helps lads Wildlife Act 1976 s.29 states you need a licence to hunt game and that gun application licence doubles up as application to hunt game where you indicate on the gun application licence that the purpose of the licence is hunting. Criminal Justice Act 2007 provides for the revocation of a firearm licence where a firearm is being used for a purpose other than in respect of which it certificate was issued. Shooting game without a hunting licence is a criminal offence and you will lose your licence. Liffey is right alot lads seem to think licence for a gun means can use it for anything ie a shotgun is obviously fit for shooting pheasants etc not just clays but if issued for targets all can be used for. Also seperate licence required to shoot penned birds.

Now that's more like it - but much like the rest of the firearms legislation, it's still not quite black and white. The Firearms act 1925 s.3(5) states that the licence in itself is sufficient provision to entitle the bearer to engage in "killing animals and birds other than game on land occupied by the person..."

So the above is correct insofar as it relates to game, but animals other than game still appear to be ok.

Having said that - the above reference does lend itself to the notion that the best course of action would be that if you're even thinking about going for game, that you make provision in your application to see that you're covered; which is a very valid point and one that I was not previously aware of personally (although as mentioned earlier, I've always filled both aspects of the form in any case so it makes no odds to me).

barnaman wrote: »

You can only target shoot at an approved range so cannot just stick up targets in a field to shoot at. Shooting at a range will require that the shotgun is certified for that purpose.

Yup, this point is well established.

barnaman wrote: »

Vermin control varies and can require a derogation which is issued to the farmer.

Pretty sure this is mostly in regard to deer or birds and animals not covered under the national derogations (badgers or gulls for example).

If you're shooting under the derogations then you're still ok in any instance as such animals do not constitute game.

barnaman wrote: »

http://www.garda.ie/Documents/User/Commissioners%20Guidelines%20%28as%20amended%2022nd%20Oct%29%20in%20relation%20to%20Firearms%20Licensing%5B1%5D.pdf

Important to note and reiterate that that document is a guidline, and not a point of law. Nevertheless it does provide good insight.

barnaman

Vermin control varies alot the link Extreme posted is useful lads worth a read. I farm and vermin control is meant to be under the control of occupier of the land and it is seperate to hunting; why farmers could always get a limited licence. If you see the person who applies for derogation or to whom derogation applies is the owner or occupier not the person holding the sporting rights. Also conditions apply take rooks most common old vermin need to show damage to cereral etc or damage to animal feed. So shooting rooks on a mountain for example could get you prosecuted as neither derogation grounds could apply.

Also gulls and badgers never get a derogation fully protrcted. Lad from gun club has a special licence to trap and shot badgers for the Dept of Ag; TB grounds. Never will tell me what gets paid buts its a nice earner.