Settle a bet please

godfather2

Looking to settle a bet here folks so if you could help would appreciate it.

A provisional licence holder, issued in 2006, had four penalty points. A learner driver can be disqualified if they accumulate 7 points. Is this driver on the old system requiring 12 points for six month disqualification?

If they sit and pass a test, as a novice driver they are disqualified with seven regardless of when licence was issued.

Should they hold back on sitting a test until 4 points disappear incase they get anymore.

Or is the 12 points on old provisional an urban legend?

L1011

A provisonal licence holder in 2006 no longer holds their old provisional, or their points from that era.

Have they sat and serially failed tests since?

If not, they don't have a provisional from 2006 under any interpretation. If they have, there may be some basis but its rather unlikely.

godfather2

No they are currently a provisional licence holder.
The first was issued years ago, points gotten I think two years ago.
Failed a test, possibly two. Licence lapsed, renewed it as wanted to sit test again.
They were told to wait until other points dropped off as on old provisional they could get up to twelve. Issued before August 2014 seven point rule applied to first provisional after that date?
Seven point rule would apply once passed test

godfather2

I think it's an urban legend but other person seems very confident it's a loophole, hence the question

Stheno

godfather2 wrote: »

No they are currently a provisional licence holder.
The first was issued years ago, points gotten I think two years ago.
Failed a test, possibly two. Licence lapsed, renewed it as wanted to sit test again.
They were told to wait until other points dropped off as on old provisional they could get up to twelve. Issued before August 2014 seven point rule applied to first provisional after that date?
Seven point rule would apply once passed test

So rather than your OP talking about 2006, they currently have a learning permit, which they got points on in 2013, it lapsed and they renewed it, and as it's less than three years, the points are still on the renewed permit?

There's no such thing as a provisional anymore.

godfather2

Sorry error on my part calling it a provisional instead of a learner permit.
The question is though, as the first permit was issued so long ago, are they allowed to clock up 12 or 7 points for disqualification?

Stheno

godfather2 wrote: »

Sorry error on my part calling it a provisional instead of a learner permit.
The question is though, as the first permit was issued so long ago, are they allowed to clock up 12 or 7 points for disqualification?

As they now hold a learners permit, I would suspect that it's the 7 points that applies as that is the current system tbh.

It would have been a provisional in 2006 with different rules which are now abolished.

That's just my opinion though

godfather2

I would agree with you. The other person seems fairly adamant that the 12 point rule still applies for those whose first learner permit was issued prior to. 2014.
So if they passed a test now they would lose the current extra cushion of points before disqualification.
There is alcohol on this and no definate answer yet.
Can't imagine such a loophole exists, but...

Stheno

godfather2 wrote: »

I would agree with you. The other person seems fairly adamant that the 12 point rule still applies for those whose first learner permit was issued prior to. 2014.
So if they passed a test now they would lose the current extra cushion of points before disqualification.
There is alcohol on this and no definate answer yet.
Can't imagine such a loophole exists, but...

I read the entire link below, and it doesn't mention such things.

http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Licensed-Drivers/Penalty-points/How-it-works-why-it-matters/

When they had provisionals, they clearly called out penalties for first second and third provisionals as they differed.

I think they are all now just treated as learner permits and the old tiered system no longer applies.

That might be what is causing confusion

ohmplate

godfather2 wrote: »

I would agree with you. The other person seems fairly adamant that the 12 point rule still applies for those whose first learner permit was issued prior to. 2014.
So if they passed a test now they would lose the current extra cushion of points before disqualification.
/QUOTE]

Once your learners permit was issued before 2014 you get the upper limit of twelve points even if you pass your test.

If you had an old provisional licence and it completely expired and you had to do the theory test etc. to get a learners permit after the date in 2014 you are on 7 points.

ohmplate

I can't post links yet but this is from the RSA website:

Changes to the penalty points system were introduced 1 August 2014 and again on 8 December 2014. On 1 August 2014 the most notable changes involved an increase in penalty points for speeding, seatbelt wearing and for using a mobile phone while driving- for a list of all those changes please click on this link. A further significant change from 1 August 2014 is that a person taking out a first learner permit after that date will be disqualified on reaching seven penalty points. The same rule will apply to a person (who first took out a learner permit after 1 August 2014) taking out a full licence for the first two years of that full licence. This is the two year period while a driver is considered to be a novice driver. For Frequently Asked Questions on rules relating to novice drivers please click on this link.

Stheno

I found the info in the link I posted above too.

States the same, seven points only applies to permits issued after 1 Aug. 2014

godfather2

But if you didn't have to do a theory test etc. Just renewed is it 12 or 7 before disqualification
Basically a friend of ours is going for the test soon

He thinks she would be mad to until other points fall off as he reckons she can currently acquire 12 but once becomes a novice it's back down to seven.
Essentially that she would be better staying as a learner as if she clocked up another 7 could still drive accompanied
.
If she passed the test could only afford to get three and would be banned.

ohmplate

Either way you have both managed to be wrong so the gargle should go my way.

ohmplate

She will have a limit of 12 points.

Stheno

godfather2 wrote: »

But if you didn't have to do a theory test etc. Just renewed is it 12 or 7 before disqualification
Basically a friend of ours is going for the test soon

He thinks she would be mad to until other points fall off as he reckons she can currently acquire 12 but once becomes a novice it's back down to seven.
Essentially that she would be better staying as a learner as if she clocked up another 7 could still drive accompanied
.
If she passed the test could only afford to get three and would be banned.

Limit of twelve once the first learner permit was issued prior to Aug. 2014.

Not sure if the same applies to a provisional.

When did they get their first permit?
And tbh how are they clocking up so many points that they think they will get to twelve?

godfather2

Even if she passes the test?

ohmplate

It would make no sense to drop the limit for people already in the system. You could have situations such as somebody on 8 points being suddenly banned after the 1st of August 2014.

godfather2

Points where for non display of l plates, shares car with full licence and a novice as well.
Arguement was one slip and she could be banned.

Stheno

godfather2 wrote: »

Even if she passes the test?

Yes 12 for novice drivers who first got a permit prior to August 2014

I actually remember having this conversation last year with a colleague who was a L driver on a moped, and he'd checked it also, it was twelve for him as he got his permit prior to Aug 2014

godfather2

So she could (in theory) rack up another 4 and still be allowed drive if she passes test or not as she has been a learner for so long. First permit taken out in 2006 as a cheap form of id for the pub lol.
Sadly got points driving to work with no plates up.
Was a bit harsh as had the full driver with her, he had taken down the plates. Should have checked etc, fair cop.
Not sure what other two are for

Stheno

godfather2 wrote: »

So she could (in theory) rack up another 4 and still be allowed drive if she passes test or not as she has been a learner for so long. First permit taken out in 2006 as a cheap form of id for the pub lol.
Sadly got points driving to work with no plates up.
Was a bit harsh as had the full driver with her, he had taken down the plates. Should have checked etc, fair cop.
Not sure what other two are for

In theory yes. Learner permits came in in Oct. 2007 so it would have been a provisional before then.

When did they get their first permit as opposed to provisional?

godfather2

Oh God no idea, I know it was out of date for 1 year. So would be guessing if issued in 2006, renewed 2008, renewed again 2010, renewed for test few months ago. So whenever permit came in would assume is when it was first issued

Psychosis

Its 12 points.

The reason being they couldnt retroactively apply the lower limit of points to existing learner drivers at the time.

When the new system came in 2014 there would have been learners with points already, some with more than 7 even. If they applied the new lower limit those people would have been banned overnight!

Its get a bit more murky when you get the full license, as the license issue date will be the date you apply in NDLS and not the date of your first learner permit, so I dont know how they join the dots and figure out full license holders who had learner permits either side of the August 2014

Losty Dublin

Psychosis wrote: »

Its get a bit more murky when you get the full license, as the license issue date will be the date you apply in NDLS and not the date of your first learner permit, so I dont know how they join the dots and figure out full license holders who had learner permits either side of the August 2014

When you renew your licence for any reason, say for category upgrading or address changes, you have to surrender up your old one. You'd presume that they link them up easily enough upon receipt.

johnnyskeleton

godfather2 wrote: »

They were told to wait until other points dropped off as on old provisional they could get up to twelve. Issued before August 2014 seven point rule applied to first provisional after that date?
Seven point rule would apply once passed test

So someone would refuse to try to get a new licence so that they have extra crime points available to play with. Nevermind that driving unaccompanied or on a motorway on a provisional is not allowed, but insurance is also more expensive.

Anyone who thinks like this clearly plays too much GTA and/or doesnt actually pay their insurance themselves, so I wouldnt worry about them!

johnnyskeleton

Psychosis wrote: »

Its 12 points.

The reason being they couldnt retroactively apply the lower limit of points to existing learner drivers at the time.

When the new system came in 2014 there would have been learners with points already, some with more than 7 even. If they applied the new lower limit those people would have been banned overnight!

Its get a bit more murky when you get the full license, as the license issue date will be the date you apply in NDLS and not the date of your first learner permit, so I dont know how they join the dots and figure out full license holders who had learner permits either side of the August 2014

Arguably they can since the courts have found that disqualification from driving is not a punishment so the retroactivity provisions of the constitution dont apply. However, the ECHR says that penalty points are a punishment so there is a potential issue there.

godfather2

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

So someone would refuse to try to get a new licence so that they have extra crime points available to play with. Nevermind that driving unaccompanied or on a motorway on a provisional is not allowed, but insurance is also more expensive.

Anyone who thinks like this clearly plays too much GTA and/or doesnt actually pay their insurance themselves, so I wouldnt worry about them!

I don't think that was what they intended to do.
Extra crime points, a little harsh but take your point.
The arguement was they should wait before sitting the until points came off in case anymore were accumulated
It would seem was a null point as limit remained the same despite the licence type in this case.

Psychosis

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Arguably they can since the courts have found that disqualification from driving is not a punishment so the retroactivity provisions of the constitution dont apply. However, the ECHR says that penalty points are a punishment so there is a potential issue there.

I don;t know about the legal point of view but that would be a ridiculously unfair thing to do and serve no real purpose as a deterrent to bad driving (If someone already has the point)