Mick Wallace & Cerberus

J.pilkington

New thread seeing as the other thread was locked and there is new activity on this with a court case next week.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/mick-wallace-to-face-court-over-2m-loan-1.2474380

Will be interesting to see what defence he will take. Wonder will he curtail his lavish lifestyle (bailing a member of the IRA on explosive charges / regular trips to his “brothers” vineyard in Italy / Ireland and Italys greatest soccer supporter (attends most games and has season tickets with two Italian clubs) to pay back some of the money he owes?

Hopefully Micks supporters will see the real motives of his vendetta with Cerberus. As I posted in the other thread the timing of Mick going after Cerebus is in line with when Cerberus would have purchased his loans from Ulster Bank (at which point he then owed the money to Cerberus) so I can only guess (due to the timing and the fact that we haven’t heard him complain about any other NAMA buyers) that he was hoping to be offered a nice settlement on the QT in exchange for his silence only to get lucky with a whistle-blower up north.

To Elland Back

You had me at 'lavish lifestyle'

Continue

ancapailldorcha

To Elland Back wrote: »

You had me at 'lavish lifestyle'

Continue

This is a forum for serious debate. Please read the charter before posting again.

To Elland Back

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

This is a forum for serious debate. Please read the charter before posting again.

Apologies, I'll qualify my sarcasm

Mick does not have a Juventus season ticket, nor does he follow them
Mick has a Torino season ticket, which costs approx €300 and has publicly stated he goes to 5/6 matches a year
His brother is a wealthy retailer in Wexford and bought Mick's vineyard to help him out financially before he became a TD
Mick still drives the 05 jeep he had before the recession
He obviously doesn't trouble Louis Copeland for his clothes or Dylan Bradshaw for his hair.

I'm not a fan of Mick, but I know what I'm talking about

Godge

To Elland Back wrote: »

Apologies, I'll qualify my sarcasm

Mick does not have a Juventus season ticket, nor does he follow them
Mick has a Torino season ticket, which costs approx €300 and has publicly stated he goes to 5/6 matches a year
His brother is a wealthy retailer in Wexford and bought Mick's vineyard to help him out financially before he became a TD
Mick still drives the 05 jeep he had before the recession
He obviously doesn't trouble Louis Copeland for his clothes or Dylan Bradshaw for his hair.

I'm not a fan of Mick, but I know what I'm talking about

In which part of Wexford is five or six trips to Italy every year not a lavish lifestyle? Not to mention following the Irish team around?

To Elland Back

Godge wrote: »

In which part of Wexford is five or six trips to Italy every year not a lavish lifestyle? Not to mention following the Irish team around?

Everyone has a passion in life where they direct their resources. If those trips were a small part of other excesses you might have a point. Lots of Wexford lads head off to Old Trafford, Anfield and The Emirates Stadium a good few times a year and entry to those grounds cost a damn sight more than Torino

Godge

To Elland Back wrote: »

Everyone has a passion in life where they direct their resources. If those trips were a small part of other excesses you might have a point. Lots of Wexford lads head off to Old Trafford, Anfield and The Emirates Stadium a good few times a year and entry to those grounds cost a damn sight more than Torino

Those lads don't owe the Revenue millions. That is the crucial point. Wallace is taking those trips at the expense of the ordinary taxpayer, to whom he owes millions.

To Elland Back

I don't disagree with that but the OP embelished the facts to make his point

Forbearance

Wallace may or may not owe the revenue millions, but this Government has facilitated the likes of Cerberus take billions, not millions, out of the Irish economy ( section 110 company, quafids etc ) TAX FREE !

Godge

Forbearance wrote: »

Wallace may or may not owe the revenue millions, but this Government has facilitated the likes of Cerberus take billions, not millions, out of the Irish economy ( section 110 company, quafids etc ) TAX FREE !

Who is defending Cerberus? They exploited a legal loophole. The Department of Finance and Revenue were deficient in their duty, as was the Government, as was the Dail. I don't recall anyone mentioning any of this as the legislation went through and gave the likes of Cerberus a loophole. Is there any amendment tabled at the time? The Oireachtas website would have details. Those civil servants, Government Ministers, and TDs from all sides deserve condemnation for allowing the Section 110 loophole. The fact that all are wise after the event means the blame should be shared. Cerberus didn't break the law, they exploited it.

Wallace on the other hand broke the law.

Forbearance

Cerberus did not exploit any tax loophole, the Dept of Finance, at the behest of Noonan, invited these vultures to the table ( repeatedly ) and asked what they wanted in order to come here and " invest ". They obviously told Noonan and the Dept, that any profit they make here must be tax free. Noonan then altered the tax consolidation acts in 2011 to make this possible. The loophole was not there in the first instance, it was invented and when Stephen Donnelly raised the issue in the Dail Francis Fitzgerald said that revenue would look into the matter. What ****! By the way, treason, is breaking the law.

FreudianSlippers

Forbearance wrote: »

Cerberus did not exploit any tax loophole, the Dept of Finance, at the behest of Noonan, invited these vultures to the table ( repeatedly ) and asked what they wanted in order to come here and " invest ". They obviously told Noonan and the Dept, that any profit they make here must be tax free. Noonan then altered the tax consolidation acts in 2011 to make this possible. The loophole was not there in the first instance, it was invented and when Stephen Donnelly raised the issue in the Dail Francis Fitzgerald said that revenue would look into the matter. What ****! By the way, treason, is breaking the law.

Section 110 was last amended by the Finance Act 1996 as far as I can see. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt in that the Irish Statute Book isn't always the most up-to-date with amendments, so do you have evidence to support this claim you're making?

Forbearance

Orphaned section 110's became the vehicle of choice for the early funds operating here since 2011.

The specific features of Irish tax law that enable Section 110 companies to do this include the fact that there are no ‘thin capitalisation’ laws in Ireland (there is no minimum profit required for a company for tax purposes, so an SPV can strip out all of its taxable profits if it chooses). Any costs of raising finance are tax-deductible under Section 110.

The most important provision of the law has been Section 110(4) which permits a Section 110 company to take a deduction for “profit participating interest” if certain conditions are met. The Finance Act 2011 introduced anti-avoidance provisions that sought to deny deductibility for that profit element of interest, but included exceptions that made the measures meaningless.

The anti-avoidance provisions do not apply (so interest is fully deductible) where the recipient of the interest or other distribution is either a person resident in Ireland, or a person (resident in an EU Member State or tax treaty country who is not “connected” with the SPV) who is a pension fund, government body or other person who is exempted from tax which generally applies to profits, income or gains in that jurisdiction. Just in case any of those exemptions do not do the trick, the Finance Act 2011 also introduced an exemption on withholding tax on interest paid through quoted eurobonds.

Forbearance

Then in 2012 came the Qualified Investor Alernative Investment Funds ( QIAIFS ), then in 2015 came the Irish Collective Asset Management Vehicle ( ICAV ) all as a result of lobbying by funds so as to extract profit ( tax free ) from the sale of distressed Irish mortgages. Make no bones about it, Irish Government has been in on this since inception. The mind boggles, Ireland still is the financial Wild West.

osmiumartist

Wallace is on what, 90k+ like every other TD? Flights to Italy are 100 Euro. I don't see how anybody is having trouble imagining he can afford these flights easily from his basic pay?
His personal finances are precisely that: personal. He's a bit odd alright but he's giving the government a regular walloping which is great.

Forbearance

I give him this, he is not part of a cohort in Government that has knowingly presided over the greatest transfer of wealth in Irish history since Oliver Cromwell. He is at least questioning, just what is happening.

Kristopherus

osmiumartist wrote: »

Wallace is on what, 90k+ like every other TD? Flights to Italy are 100 Euro. I don't see how anybody is having trouble imagining he can afford these flights easily from his basic pay?
His personal finances are precisely that: personal. He's a bit odd alright but he's giving the government a regular walloping which is great.

Did he not make some arrangement with Revenue to pay off by deductions from his €90K salary?

Forbearance

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Section 110 was last amended by the Finance Act 1996 as far as I can see. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt in that the Irish Statute Book isn't always the most up-to-date with amendments, so do you have evidence to support this claim you're making?

I have set forth the evidence, doubting Thomas, these are not claims, but statement of fact. Do you wish to rebut the evidence ?

Forbearance

The silence is deafening!

FreudianSlippers

Forbearance wrote: »

I have set forth the evidence, doubting Thomas, these are not claims, but statement of fact. Do you wish to rebut the evidence ?

What are you rambling on about?

K-9

Mod:
Up the standard guys!

nice_guy80

4% rent cap in the FG housing bill

nice return for the investment property funds
on top of the basement price they will pay for properties

Forbearance

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

What are you rambling on about?

You wanted me to provide YOU with evidence to back up my claim, I gave it to you. I expect something more than the guff in your last post, this is a forum for serious debate as far as I am aware.

K-9

Forbearance wrote: »

You wanted me to provide YOU with evidence to back up my claim, I gave it to you. I expect something more than the guff in your last post, this is a serious forum.

Did you miss the mod post straight after the one you replied to? Up the standard thank you.

Forbearance

K-9 wrote: »

Did you miss the mod post straight after the one you replied to? Up the standard thank you.

I believe I just did, another poster asked me to provide evidence to back up the claims in a previous post; I did. If you are challenged on an open forum and reply with the pertinent facts and evidence to prove your claim, I would expect a reply saying thank you or a rebuttal of my post. Hence, the term forum.

Forum :- a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.

K-9

Mod:Right, in simple terms, you and Freudian Slippers, knock it off, drop it, that means not calling posts guff or stuff like that.

If you want to reply to this post, pm me, do not reply on thread. Thank you. That goes for everybody.

Phoebas

Kristopherus wrote: »

Did he not make some arrangement with Revenue to pay off by deductions from his €90K salary?

He did, but in the run up to the last election he said he was no longer going to pay Revenue.

He was declared bankrupt today, but I don't know where Revenue now stand in getting any money back for the Irish taxpayer.

J.pilkington

So Mick lost the war.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/td-mick-wallace-found-bankrupt-in-the-high-court-1.2911438

The only time he really got of his arse in all the time he has been in the dail earning tax payers money was in an act of self interest to tackle the company cerebus who had bought his loans from Ulster bank as he knew it was only a matter of time before they called in the money that he now owed them (just so everyone is clear they bought walaces loans well in advance of the Northern Ireland Nama issue which is seperate)

Or was it mearly a battle he lost but he wins the outright war?

Sure he'll be grand as he gets to keep his employees pension, the taxpayers vat and still gets to visit his Italian vineyard which now is in the hands of his brother (which I believe was exchanged for a "company debt"). All the while getting paid a handsome wage, accruing a nice big pension and paying consultency fees to his son for "research" and claiming his €40k per annum independent allowance(which he proudly claimed on day 1 of his dail tenure at a press release that he wasn't going to claim only to submit a claim on the sly a year later and even claiming back as much as he could!). I'm sure he'll be looking forward to the forthcoming World Cups and euros and will probably use dail speaking time to ask for time off.

New politics, 'this mighty

Inquitus

J.pilkington wrote: »

So Mick lost the war.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/td-mick-wallace-found-bankrupt-in-the-high-court-1.2911438

The only time he really got of his arse in all the time he has been in the dail earning tax payers money was in an act of self interest to tackle the company cerebus who had bought his loans from Ulster bank as he knew it was only a matter of time before they called in the money that he now owed them (just so everyone is clear they bought walaces loans well in advance of the Northern Ireland Nama issue which is seperate)

Or was it mearly a battle he lost but he wins the outright war?

Sure he'll be grand as he gets to keep his employees pension, the taxpayers vat and still gets to visit his Italian vineyard which now is in the hands of his brother (which I believe was exchanged for a "company debt"). All the while getting paid a handsome wage, accruing a nice big pension and paying consultency fees to his son for "research" and claiming his €40k per annum independent allowance(which he proudly claimed on day 1 of his dail tenure at a press release that he wasn't going to claim only to submit a claim on the sly a year later and even claiming back as much as he could!). I'm sure he'll be looking forward to the forthcoming World Cups and euros and will probably use dail speaking time to ask for time off.

New politics, 'this mighty

Given he has personal guarantees on the loans, what's in scope for liquidation? his house, his car, any savings I presume? But he gets to keep his future salary, pensions, etc etc.?

Forbearance

Future earnings and assets gained in the future cannot be secured by creditors after a debtor is adjudicated bankrupt.

J.pilkington

Bumping this as it’s currently in front of the courts. Plenty of daming evidence from the liquidator about the working man ms hero TD. Seems to indicate malicious fraud of rent owing to the banks, this on top of the known theft of VAT (taxpayers money) and the theft of pensions (staffs money).

Wallace trying to lie / waffle his way out of it but only causing more confusion.

A barring from being a company director is both very serious and rare so really puts Wallace various acts of fraud into context.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/liquidator-rejects-mick-wallaces-offer-of-consent-on-restriction-order-36253974.html

James Brown

Politically, I'd rather he was raising concerns than nobody at all. We don't do accountability so any voice is welcome if it's asking questions few others will, (is that what makes him a working class hero?). If I was being robbed I'd appreciate being told no matter who does the telling.

Phoebas

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Politically, I'd rather he was raising concerns than nobody at all. We don't do accountability so any voice is welcome if it's asking questions few others will, (is that what makes him a working class hero?). If I was being robbed I'd appreciate being told no matter who does the telling.

True, but with Wallace, a lot of the concerns he has been raising are about an organisation that he has personal difficulties with.

It's hard to figure out if his concerns are genuine or if he's just using (abusing) his position for his own end.

Given his form, I'd be sceptical of anything Wallace says.

marienbad

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Politically, I'd rather he was raising concerns than nobody at all. We don't do accountability so any voice is welcome if it's asking questions few others will, (is that what makes him a working class hero?). If I was being robbed I'd appreciate being told no matter who does the telling.

Yeah even though he was robbing us himself ?

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Politically, I'd rather he was raising concerns than nobody at all. We don't do accountability so any voice is welcome if it's asking questions few others will, (is that what makes him a working class hero?). If I was being robbed I'd appreciate being told no matter who does the telling.

He should start with his own accountability and pay his taxes and his workers' pension money.

James Brown

marienbad wrote: »

Yeah even though he was robbing us himself ?

Yes. To reiterate, I'd rather have anyone asking questions than nobody at all.
I don't see were this is a defense of Wallace.
I've noticed when asked difficult questions politicians tend to go for the man over the inconvenient ball.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Yes. To reiterate, I'd rather have anyone asking questions than nobody at all.
I don't see were this is a defense of Wallace.
I've noticed when asked difficult questions politicians tend to go for the man over the inconvenient ball.

No other politician has been accused of robbing his workers' pension pot.

No other politician has been accused of systemic VAT evasion.

No other politician is facing disqualification as a director.

The fact is that Mick Wallace was one of the developers who got us into the mess and it doesn't even look like he was one of the honest ones.

Compared to him, Brian Cowen was a saint.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

No other politician has been accused of robbing his workers' pension pot.

No other politician has been accused of systemic VAT evasion.

No other politician is facing disqualification as a director.

The fact is that Mick Wallace was one of the developers who got us into the mess and it doesn't even look like he was one of the honest ones.

Compared to him, Brian Cowen was a saint.

Okay. Not sure what that has to do with my post.

blanch152

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/td-wallace-banned-from-involvement-in-firms-for-six-years-36259494.html


Well, the verdict is out and the tax-cheating member of the 1% has been found guilty and is banned from being a director for six years.

I wonder how soon will he resign as he is unfit to be a TD, having cheated the State of so much money.

Seth Brundle

blanch152 wrote: »

I wonder how soon will he resign as he is unfit to be a TD, having cheated the State of so much money.

The people see him as a hero and standing up to the establishment and not just another crooked property developer who conned both the taxpayer and his employees.
The people won't want him to stand down and I'd bet that if he stands in the next election, he'll manage to get through again.

Red_Wake

kbannon wrote: »

blanch152 wrote: »

I wonder how soon will he resign as he is unfit to be a TD, having cheated the State of so much money.

The people see him as a hero and standing up to the establishment and not just another crooked property developer who conned both the taxpayer and his employees.
The people won't want him to stand down and I'd bet that if he stands in the next election, he'll manage to get through again.

If anything, he;'ll spin this as the elites conspiring against him to his foolish followers.

Mr.Micro

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/td-wallace-banned-from-involvement-in-firms-for-six-years-36259494.html


Well, the verdict is out and the tax-cheating member of the 1% has been found guilty and is banned from being a director for six years.

I wonder how soon will he resign as he is unfit to be a TD, having cheated the State of so much money.

Not going to happen. It won't worry Wallace one bit... I a sure he takes his salary and expenses every month, and not a bother on him. His attire and appearance has shown nothing but disrespect in the Dail, now he can add his actions.

The hypocrisy of the peoples hero... is awesome