X5 crewcab?

bmwguy

I am going self employed in the new year as an IT consultant and I am also in the process of looking to change my car (as I always am!). I tend to lose the run of myself and from looking at diesel 5 series I then ended up looking at touring models just for the extra load space (don't need huge space but a bit extra would be good) then I started looking at the x5 and came across loads of them on commercial tax of 333 per year which is very tempting. What is the legal situation regarding these? Since I will be self employed it will technically be a work vehicle so is it ok? Or is it just a complete tax dodge and illegal? My father has a crew cab Toyota Hilux with 5 seats but the x5 seems a bit different it is a high end car/suv whereas the hilux is definitely a work vehicle. So basically, would it be legal to do this or would I be worried coming up to every checkpoint. Opinions welcome. Forget the morality of it for a moment, just the legality please. If it's legal then the morals take care of themselves

drunkmonkey

It's a grey area, doesn't meet the specifications to be legal. Talk of revenue clamping down on it but doesn't look like there going to.

For you it might not be an advantage to have a commercial vehicle, you'll need to ask an accountant but I don't think you'll be able to claim the same mileage on a commercial which will make it harder to get tax free money out of the business.

223vmax

Tax offices are clamping down on this area at the moment. I taxed a crew cab a few weeks ago and had to provide proof I ran a business with a form filled out and stamped from Revenue. I also had to provide a tax clearance form. Unless you have these you could end up in a tricky situation. Vehicle registration document will say commercial/own goods but revenue will refuse to take your money! You may then be stuck with a vehicle that needs reclassifying to private car. It'll cost you money to get that done + road tax at higher rate.

223vmax

223vmax wrote: »

Tax offices are clamping down on this area at the moment. I taxed a crew cab a few weeks ago and had to provide proof I ran a business with a form filled out and stamped from Revenue. I also had to provide a tax clearance form. Unless you have these you could end up in a tricky situation. Vehicle registration document will say commercial/own goods but revenue will refuse to take your money! You may then be stuck with a vehicle that needs reclassifying to private car. It'll cost you money to get that done + road tax at higher rate.

If he actually is Self employed as he states, then getting a tax cert etc won't be a hassle, really.


If it's taxed as a commercial then that means that a garage/engineer/mechanic (whoever is responsible) somewhere signed off to say it meets the criteria to be classed that way. If you're self employed and using it in the role of your business, then you're using it for it's intended purpose. You're not really doing any wrong in terms of how a Commercial is supposed to be used.

pajero12

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It's a grey area, doesn't meet the specifications to be legal. Talk of revenue clamping down on it but doesn't look like there going to.

How do you figure this? What's to say it's illegal providing it's fitted out to appropriate commercial spec, i.e A toe board,Seatbelt points welded up etc?

daRobot

pajero12 wrote: »

How do you figure this? What's to say it's illegal providing it's fitted out to appropriate commercial spec, i.e A toe board,Seatbelt points welded up etc?

It's a 5 seater 'crewcab' that we're referring to here, so no seatbelt points welded up.

X5's don't meet the criteria for this, despite many of them being signed off as such.

223vmax

Deleted User wrote: »

If he actually is Self employed as he states, then getting a tax cert etc won't be a hassle, really.


If it's taxed as a commercial then that means that a garage/engineer/mechanic (whoever is responsible) somewhere signed off to say it meets the criteria to be classed that way. If you're self employed and using it in the role of your business, then you're using it for it's intended purpose. You're not really doing any wrong in terms of how a Commercial is supposed to be used.

If he buys it and its registered as commercial but can not satisfy the requirements of Revenue to justify him taxing it as a commercial and the vehicle is untaxed he will have to tax it at the higher rate....To do that he'll need to get the vehicle reclassified as private vehicle as Revenue can only accept payment and tax as per reg doc.
I know of lads buying crew cabs and expecting to tax vehicles with herd numbers and getting in to sticky positions and have had to sell on the vehicle.

pajero12

daRobot wrote: »

It's a 5 seater 'crewcab' that we're referring to here, so no seatbelt points welded up.

X5's don't meet the criteria for this, despite many of them being signed off as such.

My apologies, Read it as just taking out the back seats and leaving the back empty

bmwguy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If he actually is Self employed as he states, then getting a tax cert etc won't be a hassle, really.


If it's taxed as a commercial then that means that a garage/engineer/mechanic (whoever is responsible) somewhere signed off to say it meets the criteria to be classed that way. If you're self employed and using it in the role of your business, then you're using it for it's intended purpose. You're not really doing any wrong in terms of how a Commercial is supposed to be used.

Not self employed yet but will be early next year. One thing I have noticed is the crewcab tax models are dearer to buy than the road tax cars. Might not be worth it. Might just stick to the 5 series. But always wanted an x5 for some reason!

OSI

OSI wrote: »

If you're looking at it from a purely legal stand point, it's worth remembering that technically you can't carry any passengers unless they are in your employment and being paid for the time they are in the vehicle.

Is that entirely true? I'm not sure of the wording of it, but is it not just that they have to be involved in the course of work being carried out (the work the vehicle's being used for)?


ie; I'm a photographer, and a model hires me to do a portfolio. I say we should do the photos at the beach and there's a Garda/revenue checkpoint along the way. I can't complete my job without the model, but at no point is the model my employee (nor am I hers).

Mycroft H

OSI wrote: »

If you're looking at it from a purely legal stand point, it's worth remembering that technically you can't carry any passengers unless they are in your employment and being paid for the time they are in the vehicle.

I've never seen anything of the sorts wrote down. Even that vague good only declaration. I've not seen any statute or SI to say otherwise.

mullingar

Legally Crew cabs are only permitted to transport employees - not families for domestic reasons, but this is mostly ignored.

+1, X5's do not meet the crew cab requirements as the rear door opening does not exceed the minimum size (AFAIK its 1280cm2)

223vmax

mullingar wrote: »

Legally Crew cabs are only permitted to transport employees - not families for domestic reasons, but this is mostly ignored.

Can you provide link to state law or SI?

mullingar

Im not going to do any major search, but whats the penalty for making a false declaration to the Gardai??

https://www.motortax.ie/OMT/pdf/RF111A_en.pdf

https://www.westmeathcoco.ie/en/media/Goods%20Only%20Declaration%20RF111A.doc

oinkely

223vmax wrote: »

If he buys it and its registered as commercial but can not satisfy the requirements of Revenue to justify him taxing it as a commercial and the vehicle is untaxed he will have to tax it at the higher rate....To do that he'll need to get the vehicle reclassified as private vehicle as Revenue can only accept payment and tax as per reg doc.
I know of lads buying crew cabs and expecting to tax vehicles with herd numbers and getting in to sticky positions and have had to sell on the vehicle.

You can tax it privately without any issue. This will be based on engine size. Reclassification is simply filling in a form at the tax office. There is no additional fee for this as it is a tax reclassification, not a vehicle class reclassification.

I have a crew cab renault trafic that is not used for work. It's taxed privately based on engine size (1.8 to 1.9 litre). When I first taxed it I just filled in the relevant form, handed over my €680 euro and job was done. Since then I can do it online.

Mine is a 2005 model. If you buy a newer commercial vehicle (post 2008) you cannot choose to tax it based on emissions, it will still be either commercial tax or based on engine size.

hoodie6029

oinkely wrote: »

If you buy a newer commercial vehicle (post 2008) you cannot choose to tax it based on emissions, it will still be either commercial tax or based on engine size.

Are you sure about that last point? If I buy a 2012 Landcruiser commercial and then proceed to tax it privately I'll be charged the cc rate? I'd be making a significant saving over the CO2 rate €1494 vs €2350 (if I'm not mistaken). Surely the Revenue wouldn't miss a trick like this?

whiterebel

A local builder has an 04 Range Rover passenger which he has legally changed over to a commercial for €333 motor tax. He didn't change anything on the RR to do this. Seems to be a lot of it going on at the moment with passenger jeeps being changed over. Always wondered how Ford got away with the 4 seat Kuga commercial, as the spec is massive on it for the money.

223vmax

Op apparently the x5 doesn't meet the requirement even though there are crew cabs version for sale. You could look at a landrover Discovery or landcruiser and some others are fully legal as crew cabs.

223vmax wrote: »

I know of lads buying crew cabs and expecting to tax vehicles with herd numbers and getting in to sticky positions and have had to sell on the vehicle.

Crew cabs are the vehicle of choice for loads of farmers around me as they can do all the towing, off roading and bring the kids to school, fit a baby seat and bring around the family when needed. Every single one is taxed commercial with no issue. A heard number will get you commercial tax.

223vmax

Sean Skinny Backache wrote: »

A heard number will get you commercial tax.

No it wont for a crew cab in most Counties when taxing for first time.

oinkely

hoodie6029 wrote: »

Are you sure about that last point? If I buy a 2012 Landcruiser commercial and then proceed to tax it privately I'll be charged the cc rate? I'd be making a significant saving over the CO2 rate €1494 vs €2350 (if I'm not mistaken). Surely the Revenue wouldn't miss a trick like this?

pretty sure hoodie6029 - The crewcab van is the perfect vehicle for me and i was concerned that I would not be able to justify private tax on a post 2008 model (when the time comes to change) as the emissions are not exactly good. Spoke with wicklow tax office at one point and the outcome was private tax on a commercial vehicle is always based on CC, very advantageous for the likes of the primastar or traffic, but a bit of a bummer if you go for one of the smally caddy / doblo ones - where the emissions based tax would be cheaper than the €333 commercial.

Of course, just because one person in the tax office said it may not mean much when the time comes to act on it ;-) A friend has a 2011 crewcab trafic though and pretty sure it is privately taxed based on the CC.

Gumbo

The E53 and even the E70 does not meet the crew cab criteria.
The problem is that many done it during the early days, but now that the official channels are wide to it, they wont do it anymore.

It could turn into the next "530d as 2.0 litre engine".

ofcork

Saw a Rr sport passenger on donedeal with commercial tax 333.

hoodie6029

Did a search on donedeal and a firm doing the conversions lists the cars currently eligible for crewcabbing and the x5 does not qualify.
I wouldn't bother with it, more hassle in the long run. Much like the '2.0 on the book' crowd, there will be a clampdown at some point.
This article was interesting reading and from what I can tell it's all still applicable.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/9000-cars-re-registered-to-save-on-cheaper-tax-128806.html
EDIT
Ah here, if I read the bloody thread I'd have seen kceire's post to the same effect! Link is still valid tho.