ESB back down on charges - official

Yawlboy

https://www.esb.ie/electric-cars/electric-car-news-and-events/electric-car-press-releases/Update-on-ESB-ecars-Public-Charging-Plan.jsp

stesaurus

We could still end up with the same charges or even higher. I would have liked some certainty on them but they clearly jumped the gun and it will take a few months to sort out.

pwurple

s.welstead wrote: »

We could still end up with the same charges or even higher. I would have liked some certainty on them but they clearly jumped the gun and it will take a few months to sort out.

I wonder where my email announcing this is? And maybe a press release?

Naw, say nothing sure, and let the general public think there is a payment system. pfft.

Fastpud

While we all welcome this climb down, I fully expect to see something along the original cost line in the very near future. ESB are out to make a profit and the infrastructure doesn't install or repair its self.
However let hope that a fairer system is designed which meets everyone's need and doesn't screw over the EV users.

The "general public" if you mean all the non ev owners ? The majority are not watching and waiting for an announcement because they simply are not interested in a 130 Km range car or even a 30 kwh 140-170 Km range EV.

The ESb or potential charges won't effect the decision making of anyone thinking about buying an ICE car in 2016.

Most of the 0.4% of the market are EV enthusiasts the rest are not and it's as simple as that.

Fastpud

What I meant is that it is fair for both the frequent users and the infrequent user of public chargers while at the same time keeps the costs down.

pwurple

Deleted User wrote: »

The "general public" if you mean all the non ev owners ? The majority are not watching and waiting for an announcement because they simply are not interested in a 130 Km range car or even a 30 kwh 140-170 Km range EV.

The ESb or potential charges won't effect the decision making of anyone thinking about buying an ICE car in 2016.

Most of the 0.4% of the market are EV enthusiasts the rest are not and it's as simple as that.

i mean everyone from shop keepers to hairdressers to collegues who regularly, upon seeing that I have an ev, ask me how I can possibly afford it when they are so expensive to run?

Do you not encounter this? Nearly every conversation about the car I am looked at incredulously when I tell them EV's are a lot cheaper than their cars to run. A woman in a shop said she "had heard" that they cost around 800 euro a month in electricity.

Some people in work have mentioned to me about the ESB charges and I told them that the majority of charging will be done at home. And they were quiet surprised when I told them the mileage I'm doing in the leaf. I told them that even if I were to use the fast charger on the way home over a 5 day a week that it would cost me a max of 80 odd Euro's PM inc home charging, the 17 PM rental and the 30C/min charge for 10 mins a day to do my mileage V 180-200 Euro's in Diesel for 680-700 Odd Kms per week.

I did point out that under the proposed charges if they take the odd trip a few times a year that might cost around the same as diesel that the majority of driving will be from their home charger using very cheap night rate electricity. Meaning significant savings over diesel.

I also told them that in just 2 years the 300-350 Km Leaf will be available and that is a significant amount of range from their home charge point using very heap night rate leccy and trips to public chargers will be rare.

Still I haven't come across anyone interested or considering buying an EV for 2016 in work or anyone local, friends , neighbours etc not even with the work charge point. And the less people that want to use it the better for me.

pwurple

Deleted User wrote: »

And the less people that want to use it the better for me.

It really isn't better for you. The less people who buy in at this stage when all the incentives are there, the less this technology is likely to succeed.

I don't want EV's to be this generation's Betamax.

Electrics are the future , no doubt, but it's going to take a long time for people to get off their addiction to petrol and diesel.

The 60 Kwh Leaf may convince a lot more people but there needs to be many more models and apart from the Model 3 there are no affordable EV models before 2020 announced. This is another part of the problem. And the Model 3 won't be cheap by the time we pay tax on it in Ireland.

The other problem is E.U legislators continuing to promote and support diesel fuel and support manufacturers by not increasing emissions limits. They have successfully lobbied legislators in the past to have emissions levels increased so they don't have to spend a lot of money, these car companies that make billions, it's a laugh.

Our own government could have changed things in the Budget but chose not to because it wouldn't go down well with diesel drivers.

So when the 60 Kwh leaf arrives hopefully there'll be a good increase in sales and maybe the Model S. But the reality is most people at this time don't want an EV or the thought hasn't even crossed their minds.

nokia69

pwurple wrote: »

I don't want EV's to be this generation's Betamax.

No chance of that, electric cars will continue to get better while there is not too much room to improve the ICE or fool cell technology

all the major manufacturers have electric cars on the way, they know electric is the future

cerastes

pwurple wrote: »

i mean everyone from shop keepers to hairdressers to collegues who regularly, upon seeing that I have an ev, ask me how I can possibly afford it when they are so expensive to run?

Do you not encounter this? Nearly every conversation about the car I am looked at incredulously when I tell them EV's are a lot cheaper than their cars to run. A woman in a shop said she "had heard" that they cost around 800 euro a month in electricity.

tbh, the ability for people to have/use PV and feed into the grid would cover more peoples needs at a lower embodied energy and with greater practical returns than cars.
this would serve everyone better, than the minuscule impact of EV cars.
That said, Id like an EV, but Id much prefer to have some ability to balance my charging at night cheaply and at a benefit to the network/grid with supplementing the grid during the day with PV, which I think is better for all involved.

Deleted User wrote: »

Some people in work have mentioned to me about the ESB charges and I told them that the majority of charging will be done at home. And they were quiet surprised when I told them the mileage I'm doing in the leaf. I told them that even if I were to use the fast charger on the way home over a 5 day a week that it would cost me a max of 80 odd Euro's PM inc home charging, the 17 PM rental and the 30C/min charge for 10 mins a day to do my mileage V 180-200 Euro's in Diesel for 680-700 Odd Kms per week.

What mileage are you doing? I thought I read a post by you which said your employer provides free charging, and I thought on street charging was free? and that proposed changes were to start charging for charging, so to speak.So whats the breakdown? how much is home charging and do you pay elsewhere?

I did point out that under the proposed charges if they take the odd trip a few times a year that might cost around the same as diesel that the majority of driving will be from their home charger using very cheap night rate electricity. Meaning significant savings over diesel.

I also told them that in just 2 years the 300-350 Km Leaf will be available and that is a significant amount of range from their home charge point using very heap night rate leccy and trips to public chargers will be rare.

Still I haven't come across anyone interested or considering buying an EV for 2016 in work or anyone local, friends , neighbours etc not even with the work charge point. And the less people that want to use it the better for me.

Deleted User wrote: »

Electrics are the future , no doubt, but it's going to take a long time for people to get off their addiction to petrol and diesel.

It's not so much an addiction, but capable EV cars are a recent phenomena, as you say yourself below, there are no affordable alternatives, and how affordable what's available will be here by the time it gets here!

The 60 Kwh Leaf may convince a lot more people but there needs to be many more models and apart from the Model 3 there are no affordable EV models before 2020 announced. This is another part of the problem. And the Model 3 won't be cheap by the time we pay tax on it in Ireland.

The other problem is E.U legislators continuing to promote and support diesel fuel and support manufacturers by not increasing emissions limits. They have successfully lobbied legislators in the past to have emissions levels increased so they don't have to spend a lot of money, these car companies that make billions, it's a laugh.

Our own government could have changed things in the Budget but chose not to because it wouldn't go down well with diesel drivers.

So when the 60 Kwh leaf arrives hopefully there'll be a good increase in sales and maybe the Model S. But the reality is most people at this time don't want an EV or the thought hasn't even crossed their minds.

As I mentioned above, allowing people (everyone) not just those with cars or more specifically those with EV's to put PV on their roof's would have more impact and benefit for more people than cars would and at a lower cost and a better use. As much as I'm interested and like the idea of EV (cars and other vehicles) its impacts and benefits pale in comparison to the possibilities with PV.

cerastes

cerastes wrote: »

tbh, the ability for people to have/use PV and feed into the grid would cover more peoples needs at a lower embodied energy and with greater practical returns than cars.
this would serve everyone better, than the minuscule impact of EV cars.
That said, Id like an EV, but Id much prefer to have some ability to balance my charging at night cheaply and at a benefit to the network/grid with supplementing the grid during the day with PV, which I think is better for all involved.

Solar PV would make a difference on every roof top in Ireland but still too expensive if you compare the small saving over night rate electricity to the cost of Solar PV installation. There is no feed in tariff in Ireland either making it unviable at this time. Even running the Leaf, for what I am saving over petrol or diesel is massive, I can't compare the cost of Solar PV to petrol or diesel only to the night rate cost of electricity which would cost if I had the 30 kwh leaf and all my charging was done on night rate about 10.80 A week over 5 days for 670-700 Kms a week.

cerastes wrote: »

What mileage are you doing? I thought I read a post by you which said your employer provides free charging, and I thought on street charging was free? and that proposed changes were to start charging for charging, so to speak.So whats the breakdown? how much is home charging and do you pay elsewhere?

Yes half my charging is met by the work 7 kw dual outlet charge point. Because of my shift pattern it's more complicated to calculate out, this is why I based my calculation of (what it would cost) using the home charger and ESB charger under the proposed charges over a 5 day work week which would be 81 Euro's including everything based on my current consumption. And 180-200 PM in diesel. Most people do regular 9-5 Mon-Fri so it's easier for them to grasp the cost and it saves me a lot of typing to calculate based on my shift pattern.

If I got the 30 kwh battery then 100 % of my commute would be free using the work charge point. If I had the 60 Kwh leaf than most of my entire driving would be free as long as I'm still in my current job. The building consumes 30-40 Mega watts of power so charging the leaf would be less than flicking on a single led. Power outages are not possible and power is "Always" guaranteed", a working charge point on the other hand is a different story.

Currently the work Charge point is down. So next week I will either drive the diesel or risk Naas shopping centre at the busiest time of the year, I will try it Monday because I am on days it could work out pointless trying to charge if locals use it as their personal charger and disappear into the centre for an hour.

pwurple

Photovoltaics? Granted, It's nearly 2 decades since my power elec in uni, but they certainly were not any kind of viable solution back then. Fragile, low efficiency, and especially with our light levels ireland -> intermittant generation. It's very difficult to design anything reliable around them. Massive fluctuations in levels are not so good for a grid.

If there was suddenly a massive take-up of photovoltaic on the grid the infrastucture would need some redesigning. also a shedload of issue with microgeneration, like synchronisation and dealing with surges and troughs.

It's a lot more complicated than just plugging it in, and to be honest, experienced power electrical engineers are thin on the ground too, so even the expertise to drive something like that is not easily available.

They are a lot more efficient today, Solar PV works in Ireland but it needs a feed-in-tariff to become viable because you will have huge excess in Summer and need to buy it back in winter.
based on the average solar radiation per M2 in Ireland I would need about 8 Kw/p to meet my yearly house and leaf needs for a year. That's entirely possible however, Irish homes are pretty small and we don't have long high pitched roofs like I see in Germany for instance and our grid is crap. We can only supply a max of 5 Kw to the grid in Ireland on single phase. In Germany it's something like 20 odd kw and probably more because they mostly have 3 phase in homes there.