Was Metro West such a bad idea?

monument

Given the demand on the M50, was Metro West such a bad idea?

I'm not convinced but think it's worth having a discussion on this.

Clearly Metro West would only work with Dart Underground and/or the expansion of Dart to all the heavy rail lines in the city. If not also Metro North in place.

Let's also keep this to the topic in hand, and keep the delays/downgrading with with the Dart and Metro to secondary points only.

Copehagain are effectively building a version of metro west: http://ringtre.dk/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/3.pdf

cgcsb

I think it would have been lightly used to be honest, but probably still worth building. I would rather see a public transport only bridge road connecting liffey valley s/c and the carpenterstown road + 3 or 4 high frequency Blanch area-Tallaght area bus routes. That way you cover more of the sprawl and you have some flexibility.

loyatemu

similar to the complaints about there being no bus route along the M50 - the destinations are so dispersed around west Dublin, it's hard to see any public transport solution making a big difference. I'd certainly prioritise DU and MN.

Infini

Better to invest in the dart and heavy rail system which has far more coverage first before any vanity projects line the metro.

markpb

Infini2 wrote: »

Better to invest in the dart and heavy rail system which has far more coverage first before any vanity projects line the metro.

Is it a vanity project simply because you don't agree with it? I think you're abusing the word vanity there, they weren't proposing a maglev rail line, just a tram.

Captain Chaos

markpb wrote: »

Is it a vanity project simply because you don't agree with it? I think you're abusing the word vanity there, they weren't proposing a maglev rail line, just a tram.

A tram system can't cope with the proposed numbers and has limited future expansion. Heavy rail can do both with ease and link up with the existing network.

markpb

Captain Chaos wrote: »

A tram system can't cope with the proposed numbers and has limited future expansion. Heavy rail can do both with ease and link up with the existing network.

I'm not arguing with that, I'm wondering why the previous poster thinks it's a vanity project? If anything it's the opposite.

Victor

The Copenhagen proposal looks to be much more urban than Metro West.

Metro West would have connected up lots of things and would have fed traffic into the heavy rail network and Metro North. in the original PFC version of MN and MW, the section of MNW from Finglas to Blanchardstown would have made MN a real option from Blanchardstown to the city.

I do disagree with some of the design choices, e.g. failing to go through the industrial estates at Ballycoolin,the number of level crossings and the design of the Belgard stop - an elevated stop on top of a hill, using the same shelters as Luas.

However, compared to the other rail proposals, MW would have been relatively cheap to build, as it didn't involve deep stations (I think there were 1-2 underground stations) and used virgin ground and/or suburban roads with relatively few utilities under them.

ClovenHoof

It would have been relatively fast to construct. I doubt it would have been lightly used. The same arguments were put forward for the M50. I can distinctly recall numerous articles in the Indo saying that it was pointless because it did not go 'into town'.

Did the M50 carry little traffic?

Depressingly the An Lar mentality will never leave this country.

cgcsb

I think it might be worthwhile in the future with du, mn and electrified rail lines. Right now id like to see 3 or 4 frequent blanch-tallaght bus lines as a start.

Infini

markpb wrote: »

I'm not arguing with that, I'm wondering why the previous poster thinks it's a vanity project? If anything it's the opposite.

Its vanity because it was selected as nothing more than a cynical attempt to by the vote. Its vanity because they wont even begin building till after the election after the election. Its vanity because people already can see it isnt up to scratch to match the demand. Its vanity because its a completely seperate system from TWO networks.

If they had just gone with DU they would have been able to go alot sooner and the end result was the doubling of capacity of the entire dublin urban rail netwrk.

markpb

Infini2 wrote: »

Its vanity because it was selected as nothing more than a cynical attempt to by the vote. Its vanity because they wont even begin building till after the election after the election. Its vanity because people already can see it isnt up to scratch to match the demand. Its vanity because its a completely seperate system from TWO networks.

If they had just gone with DU they would have been able to go alot sooner and the end result was the doubling of capacity of the entire dublin urban rail netwrk.

Are you high? The rest of us are talking about Metro *West*.

AngryLips

It wouldn't have been a solution to M50 madness. I don't think traffic between the outer suburbs is the main traffic generator. A BRT would probably be more cost effective for the number of people I would expect to be using it.

Dr_Bill

Infini2 wrote: »

Better to invest in the dart and heavy rail system which has far more coverage first before any vanity projects line the metro.

Here's what a vanity project looks like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJHGtfPTvSM

MN/MW or DU or a mix of both are not vanity projects they are something that is needed to get people to and from work!

markpb

AngryLips wrote: »

It wouldn't have been a solution to M50 madness. I don't think traffic between the outer suburbs is the main traffic generator. A BRT would probably be more cost effective for the number of people I would expect to be using it.

I would imagine that traffic between suburbs makes up a significant chunk of the m50 traffic. After that would be traffic from outside Dublin using the m50 to get to a location on the m50 or to an inner suburb at another part of the city.

The first group are probably large enough to sustain a rail service but the problem, as others have said, is that outer suburbs tend to be more dispersed so a rail service would probably not be near anyone's origin or destination. Having to walk to a station and from a station combined with the relatively windy route would make out very difficult to create an attractive service.

The second group will probably never be adequately served by public transport in Dublin.

Infini2 wrote: »

Better to invest in the dart and heavy rail system which has far more coverage first before any vanity projects line the metro.

How do you figure that the type of rail line affects coverage?

Keyzer

Infini2 wrote: »

Better to invest in the dart and heavy rail system which has far more coverage first before any vanity projects line the metro.

Bemused by this comment.

The DART and heavy rail system for a city the size of Dublin has a disgracefully low level of coverage when you get down to the nuts and bolts of it. And I'm not talking about the entire city or county of Dublin. I fully understand we don't have the population to justify a massive rail network. There are three main stops in the city centre on the DART line. Then we have Docklands and Heuston. That's really poor in my opinion.

That said, would a Metro west line be a bad idea? I think if some careful thought and planning were put into it (I know, I know...) it could be a success.

Banjoxed

Tsk, empty motorways like the M3 which need the State to pay shadow tolls to the operator to make up projected income are vital national infrastructure. Railways and tramways are vanity projects or white elephants.

Glad to have cleared that up.

:rolleyes:

strassenwo!f

The metrowest idea is a very good one, even if the DTO/RPA proposal for this route was a poor one, and not a priority for Dublin at this time.

The way cities like Munich and Frankfurt, but especially Munich, have achieved something akin to the orbital route envisaged by metrowest is to have several lines running into and across the city.

This facilitates the main demand, which is to get into the city. Nothing that Dublin is going to do is ever going to change the fact that the largest group of people from any location - be it Neilstown, Sandymount, Santry or Clonsilla - want to get into the city. No matter how much folk like platform11 bleat on about it.

The DART Underground project broadly made sense, on its own, as a stepping stone.

But the Dart underground project with spurs - to utilise the vast capacity of the tunnel to enable people who don't currently have a direct connection with the centre of the city - the most popular destination in the country - to have such a connection? What an arrangement that would be.

And that could, of course, allow people to travel along much of the metrowest route.

No change if you're going to the centre, which the largest group of people are, one change if you're not.

Better, I believe, than the metrowest's proposed one change if you're going into the city, no change if you're not.

monument

loyatemu wrote: »

similar to the complaints about there being no bus route along the M50 - the destinations are so dispersed around west Dublin, it's hard to see any public transport solution making a big difference. I'd certainly prioritise DU and MN.

Metro West is hardly comparable to any kind of bus route along the M50. The M50 is away from most things, while MW would directly link suburban centres, retail centres, residential area, and at least some industrial / business parks.

AngryLips wrote: »

It wouldn't have been a solution to M50 madness. I don't think traffic between the outer suburbs is the main traffic generator. A BRT would probably be more cost effective for the number of people I would expect to be using it.

BRT is not half as attractive.

Metro West also allows for suburbs to centre or suburbs to outer suburbslinks.

Infini

markpb wrote: »

Are you high? The rest of us are talking about Metro *West*.

Well my apologies for not noticing that detail since the only metro ive heard of is the one being pushed atm. Still doesnt change the fact that we shouldnt be building ANOTHER seperate system from both luas and heavy rail tho. Seriously why build things undercapcity in dublin like the M50 that ultimately ends up inadequate after a few years.

Idbatterim

It could be built as Luas with longer trams like the cross city is getting and platforms and build as per metro north plan, but surface in ranelagh. That is the long term plan for MN...

MN and Luas are both light rail...

Victor

Infini2 wrote: »

Well my apologies for not noticing that detail since the only metro ive heard of is the one being pushed atm. Still doesnt change the fact that we shouldnt be building ANOTHER seperate system from both luas and heavy rail tho. Seriously why build things undercapcity in dublin like the M50 that ultimately ends up inadequate after a few years.

"Metro", while it is is a legally defined term, is merely a tag. Bother Metro West and Metro North were likely to operate under the Luas brand, with the same railway gauge, electrification and similar vehicles.

AngryLips

monument wrote: »

BRT is not half as attractive.

Metro West also allows for suburbs to centre or suburbs to outer suburbslinks.

Why not? You're talking about the same type of usage figures as you see on those parts of the red line beyond the M50 due to the extremely low density of development along the proposed route.

Macy0161

It never made any sense to me that metro West didn't go as far as sandyford industrial estate at least. It wouldve made more sense to carry itnon even further south to Cherrywood, Dun Laoghaire or Bray.

thomasj

Macy0161 wrote:

It never made any sense to me that metro West didn't go as far as sandyford industrial estate at least. It wouldve made more sense to carry itnon even further south to Cherrywood, Dun Laoghaire or Bray.

I was thinking that myself dundrum sandyford and maybe dun laoghaire

Carawaystick

Macy0161 wrote: »

It never made any sense to me that metro West didn't go as far as sandyford industrial estate at least. It wouldve made more sense to carry itnon even further south to Cherrywood, Dun Laoghaire or Bray.

Getting to the Green Line is fair enough, but why replicate the tram line?

strassenwo!f

It does seem unlikely that the metrowest is going to be constructed in the near future, whether the overall idea behind it is good or not. But, since it is a large piece of infrastructure proposed for Dublin, perhaps the infrastructure forum might be the best place for this discussion.

Starting a discussion on this issue in this forum, might be a bit premature.

Macy0161

Carawaystick wrote: »

Getting to the Green Line is fair enough, but why replicate the tram line?

I guess, but the tram line doesn't go to Bray or Dun Laoghaire. That could be achieved with an extension of the current line, or the metro west - whichever would be the quickest achieved. Could have metro west to dun laoghaire and luas to Bray!

Banjoxed

Macy0161 wrote: »

I guess, but the tram line doesn't go to Bray or Dun Laoghaire. That could be achieved with an extension of the current line, or the metro west - whichever would be the quickest achieved. Could have metro west to dun laoghaire and luas to Bray!

Extending the Luas to Bray Station - now there's a mouth watering prospect and a big two fingers to the memory of Tod Andrews. Revenge for The Protestant Solicitors of Carrickmines!



Seriously though it would open up car free access to Dundrum and Sandyford from points further south.

Macy0161

Banjoxed wrote: »

Extending the Luas to Bray Station - now there's a mouth watering prospect and a big two fingers to the memory of Tod Andrews. Revenge for The Protestant Solicitors of Carrickmines!



Seriously though it would open up car free access to Dundrum and Sandyford from points further south.

Building was allowed on some of the old alignment, but it is supposedly part of the plan, with Park and Ride in Fassaroe.

It would alleviate some of the M/N11 - M50, but the M/N11 issues start further south before the Glen Of The Downs.

Banjoxed

Macy0161 wrote: »

Building was allowed on some of the old alignment, but it is supposedly part of the plan, with Park and Ride in Fassaroe.

It would alleviate some of the M/N11 - M50, but the M/N11 issues start further south before the Glen Of The Downs.

The point of providing a connection with the railway at Bray would be to allow transfers from Greystones, Kilcoole, Wicklow and the rest of the Wexford/Rosslare line. An encouragement to use the railway.

monument

strassenwo!f wrote: »

It does seem unlikely that the metrowest is going to be constructed in the near future, whether the overall idea behind it is good or not. But, since it is a large piece of infrastructure proposed for Dublin, perhaps the infrastructure forum might be the best place for this discussion.

Starting a discussion on this issue in this forum, might be a bit premature.

No more posts like this, you're not derailing this thread as you have with other. Stick to the topic or don't post.

Read the charter before posting again.

-- moderator