external insulation

annubis

ok i know this isnt a building forum but figure there might be a few farmers in same boat as myself, big old farmhouse, house hard to heat and impossible to keep warm. would be interested to here if anyone has had their house externally insulated and if so how did it go. there are heaps of websites of companies doing it but would prefer to hear of any first hand experience of installers
thanks

angusangus

annubis wrote: »

ok i know this isnt a building forum but figure there might be a few farmers in same boat as myself, big old farmhouse, house hard to heat and impossible to keep warm. would be interested to here if anyone has had their house externally insulated and if so how did it go. there are heaps of websites of companies doing it but would prefer to hear of any first hand experience of installers
thanks

Eagerly awaiting!

cute geoge

Parents got it done on a concrete built cottage .It is at least 6 inches of dense foam and was plastered on the outside with new pvc window sills There was a new roof put on as well and this will catch you out as when the six inches is added outside you will have no sofit board.In all it was front wall and gables as there is a cavity built extension built at back cost 1500 and it worked out a grant covered most of that in 2013 .It would work out costly for a big area of wall .Very satisifed with it ,P.m. if near kerry and you can see it .Plenty of contractors advertiseed for that work .Ring them and price around.

wildcatares22

There's a scheme been ran where they insulate your house. Walls attic windows everything covered if you meet the criteria. Home must be built pre 2005, in your ownership, lived in by you. I think it's called seai or something. Google it and see.

Base price

OH has an old stone double storey house on a outfarm that he upgraded about 9 years ago. He was told at the time not to put any insulation on the outside as it does not allow the stone to breath which causes condensation inside. At the time the house was not lived in for about 10 years.
He insulated the inside of the external walls with plaster boards that were lined with silver paper - I don't know the correct term for them. The other thing that was important was that the timber that the plaster boards were attached too were not in direct contact with the stone. I think they used metal spacers things with bolts which kept the timbers off the walls by an inch or two. The downside was that the rooms became a bit smaller but the lads doing the job were also able to square the rooms, if you know what I mean. We also got new double glazed windows (second hand), internal window sills, doors and attic insulation.
From memory it caused about €20k at the time.
It is still a big house to heat but a lot more cosy than it would have been if we did not do the work. On the upside we have rented the house since then although the amount is not large it keeps the house dry/in use and someone around on the outfarm to keep an eye on stock for us.

Farrell

OP where about are you (County).
There is Grant available with SEAI.
Stone walls will need Rock Wool which allows the walls to breath, for concrete walls polystyrene is used as it does not allow the walls to breath. Rock wool would be the dearer product.
BP, I think what your OH did was internal insulation & dry-lining, which can be as effective, only downside is stone is cold & cold bridge is on internal rather than external. There is grant for that too on SEAI.
It's expensive, but Should be a great success.

Farrell

annubis wrote: »

ok i know this isnt a building forum but figure there might be a few farmers in same boat as myself, big old farmhouse, house hard to heat and impossible to keep warm. would be interested to here if anyone has had their house externally insulated and if so how did it go. there are heaps of websites of companies doing it but would prefer to hear of any first hand experience of installers
thanks

Also remember if you do get external insulation, you will lose some heat originally, as the stone will require heat, but once they're warm they'll retain it (so I'm told)

Base price

Farrell wrote: »

OP where about are you (County).
There is Grant available with SEAI.
Stone walls will need Rock Wool which allows the walls to breath, for concrete walls polystyrene is used as it does not allow the walls to breath. Rock wool would be the dearer product.
BP, I think what your OH did was internal insulation & dry-lining, which can be as effective, only downside is stone is cold & cold bridge is on internal rather than external. There is grant for that too on SEAI.
It's expensive, but Should be a great success.

I forgot to say that OH got the builders to put those little sliding plastic vents into every room. They are about 8" long by 3 or 4"
There is no issue with dampness in the house except for the utility/boot room with a lean too roof that was built in the 70's. I reckon you could put a thermonuclear power station into it and it will still be cold.

CloughCasey1

Send on all details lads to myself and bullocks. We'll both tender for the work and let the best man win!

Bullocks

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

Send on all details lads to myself and bullocks. We'll both tender for the work and let the best man win!

No weather for it at the minute, I won't be starting anymore EWI until Feb /March I'd say .

CloughCasey1

Bullocks wrote: »

No weather for it at the minute, I won't be starting anymore EWI until Feb /March I'd say .

Have one boarded in Wicklow and cant even finish the plinth on a school were doing in Cork. March to October work.

Muckit

@base price. .... you cannot use conventional building methods on this type of structure. As you said they are doomed to fail because walls have to breath.

Walls need to be lime plastered on outside and use hemp or similar insulation on inside.

annubis

Farrell wrote: »

OP where about are you (County).
There is Grant available with SEAI.
Stone walls will need Rock Wool which allows the walls to breath, for concrete walls polystyrene is used as it does not allow the walls to breath. Rock wool would be the dearer product.
BP, I think what your OH did was internal insulation & dry-lining, which can be as effective, only downside is stone is cold & cold bridge is on internal rather than external. There is grant for that too on SEAI.
It's expensive, but Should be a great success.

Co Clare

annubis

Muckit wrote: »

@base price. .... you cannot use conventional building methods on this type of structure. As you said they are doomed to fail because walls have to breath.

Walls need to be lime plastered on outside and use hemp or similar insulation on inside.

i was looking at one exmaple of external insulation on youtube i think and i seem to recall they were fitting vents to the new exterior surface i presume to let wall breath?

annubis

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

Send on all details lads to myself and bullocks. We'll both tender for the work and let the best man win!

do ye do the whole lot, i mean move out gutters etc

Muckit

Was the wall a block or rubble wall? The vents were for air flow to the rooms, not the walls l would imagine.

annubis

Farrell wrote: »

OP where about are you (County).
There is Grant available with SEAI.
Stone walls will need Rock Wool which allows the walls to breath, for concrete walls polystyrene is used as it does not allow the walls to breath. Rock wool would be the dearer product.
BP, I think what your OH did was internal insulation & dry-lining, which can be as effective, only downside is stone is cold & cold bridge is on internal rather than external. There is grant for that too on SEAI.
It's expensive, but Should be a great success.

well this house would be a combination, the very very old stone house in the middle and then some 70s extensions at the front nad back, extensions would be block built anyway but dont know what type, solid cavity etc, its all plastered and always has been even in oldest pics ive seem, its was all newly roofed in 90s and there would be a very large roof area, again only insulated above ceiling

annubis

Muckit wrote: »

Was the wall a block or rubble wall? The vents were for air flow to the rooms, not the walls l would imagine.

hmm not sure but i would think it was block, vents were at the buttom of the walls if that makes any odds

Bullocks

annubis wrote: »

ok i know this isnt a building forum but figure there might be a few farmers in same boat as myself, big old farmhouse, house hard to heat and impossible to keep warm. would be interested to here if anyone has had their house externally insulated and if so how did it go. there are heaps of websites of companies doing it but would prefer to hear of any first hand experience of installers
thanks

It would be expensive to externally insulate if you have alot of wall to cover on a big old farmhouse.
What kinda walls have you and what thickness?
What's your budget and are you planing any other work at the same time ?
Draughts can be a big part of cold farmhouses, throwing a good heap of insulation into the attic is the first place I would start and its usually the cheapest job to get done . Windows and doors are another place heat can escape if you haven't replaced them (it's a job that suits to get done with EWI so you can bring out the windows the thickness of the new insulation )
Is there any damp in the house ?
TBH I don't know if I'd go with EWI as my first choice for a big farmhouse - I did up the farm house at home a couple of years ago and didn't bother with it .I think I got a better job by metal studding the external walls internally and sprayfoaming behind them and right up the rafters so the whole lot was sealed well . Now it was a full refurbishment with wiring and plumbing so the metal studding was handy to run all that behind and we could afford to lose the space inside .

Bullocks

annubis wrote: »

hmm not sure but i would think it was block, vents were at the buttom of the walls if that makes any odds

If the vents are at the bottom of the wall chances they are for venting a joist timber floor .? They can be draughty

CloughCasey1

Bullocks wrote: »

It would be expensive to externally insulate if you have alot of wall to cover on a big old farmhouse.
What kinda walls have you and what thickness?
What's your budget and are you planing any other work at the same time ?
Draughts can be a big part of cold farmhouses, throwing a good heap of insulation into the attic is the first place I would start and its usually the cheapest job to get done . Windows and doors are another place heat can escape if you haven't replaced them (it's a job that suits to get done with EWI so you can bring out the windows the thickness of the new insulation )
Is there any damp in the house ?
TBH I don't know if I'd go with EWI as my first choice for a big farmhouse - I did up the farm house at home a couple of years ago and didn't bother with it .I think I got a better job by metal studding the external walls internally and sprayfoaming behind them and right up the rafters so the whole lot was sealed well . Now it was a full refurbishment with wiring and plumbing so the metal studding was handy to run all that behind and we could afford to lose the space inside .

Problem with most farmhouses is the internal door jambs are on the external wall which makes it a pain for internal drylining or studding as you did. I couldn't agree more on what you did for a full refurbishment job though. Worked out a lot cheaper.and you were left with straight walls. I think Farrell above said thay rockwool was best for a stone house externally. It is more breathable but I would still use polystyrene as it is very hard to straighten out a wall with rockwool bats. I assume it was open cell spray foam you used on the walls to let it breath?

annubis

Bullocks wrote: »

It would be expensive to externally insulate if you have alot of wall to cover on a big old farmhouse.
What kinda walls have you and what thickness?
What's your budget and are you planing any other work at the same time ?
Draughts can be a big part of cold farmhouses, throwing a good heap of insulation into the attic is the first place I would start and its usually the cheapest job to get done . Windows and doors are another place heat can escape if you haven't replaced them (it's a job that suits to get done with EWI so you can bring out the windows the thickness of the new insulation )
Is there any damp in the house ?
TBH I don't know if I'd go with EWI as my first choice for a big farmhouse - I did up the farm house at home a couple of years ago and didn't bother with it .I think I got a better job by metal studding the external walls internally and sprayfoaming behind them and right up the rafters so the whole lot was sealed well . Now it was a full refurbishment with wiring and plumbing so the metal studding was handy to run all that behind and we could afford to lose the space inside .

well i have poor enough 90s white pvc windows,you can feel wind blowing thru them although in fairness they dont leak like old teak windows. if i was doing the job i would replace them as well, the stone wall parts of the house would be 2.5 ft wide i suppose, but there wouldnt be a huge amount of that type of wall, when the house was re roofed in 90's the gables were knocked down a good bit and a concrete band was put around top of walls all around house to hold it together I guess, gables were rebuild from top of concrete band with block and insulation board in between, there are alot of windows though and the front of the house would have 5 very big windows and not much wall
electrics were all re done in 90s, the house would be in good shape in terms of furnishing kitchen etc , i would probably like to re do heating system, some of the pipe work down stairs would be ancient, rads very old, again upstairs would be done newly in 90s, would also put in solar panels etc

CloughCasey1

annubis wrote: »

hmm not sure but i would think it was block, vents were at the buttom of the walls if that makes any odds

Vents at bottom if the wall are usually for a suspended timber floor to let the timbers breath

Edit: sorry bullocks ya answered that one already

CloughCasey1

annubis wrote: »

well i have poor enough 90s white pvc windows,you can feel wind blowing thru them although in fairness they dont leak like old teak windows. if i was doing the job i would replace them as well, the stone wall parts of the house would be 2.5 ft wide i suppose, but there wouldnt be a huge amount of that type of wall, when the house was re roofed in 90's the gables were knocked down a good bit and a concrete band was put around top of walls all around house to hold it together I guess, gables were rebuild from top of concrete band with block and insulation board in between, there are alot of windows though and the front of the house would have 5 very big windows and not much wall
electrics were all re done in 90s, the house would be in good shape in terms of furnishing kitchen etc , i would probably like to re do heating system, some of the pipe work down stairs would be ancient, rads very old, again upstairs would be done newly in 90s, would also put in solar panels etc

Last thing I would put in is solar as all the other options are vital upgrades. You could upgrade the heating to a condensing oil boiler with three zones. Ground floor and first floor ran off two programmable wall stats and cylinder ran form single channel programmer and cylinder stat. First things first is insulation. No matter how you heat your house if ya cannot keep it in there is no big advantage. The windows would also be a 30 year payback. Unless you are changing from singleglazed non draught proofed teak or aluminium windows the pay back is too long. Get a fitter to service each window and replace any damaged hinges. Insulation comes first then work from there.

CloughCasey1

annubis wrote: »

do ye do the whole lot, i mean move out gutters etc

Can do, but moving out the gutters means extending the roof out which is a whole other ball game.

annubis

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

Can do, but moving out the gutters means extending the roof out which is a whole other ball game.

whats the norm, thought you would have to move them out if insulating externally?

Bullocks

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

Problem with most farmhouses is the internal door jambs are on the external wall which makes it a pain for internal drylining or studding as you did. I couldn't agree more on what you did for a full refurbishment job though. Worked out a lot cheaper.and you were left with straight walls. I think Farrell above said thay rockwool was best for a stone house externally. It is more breathable but I would still use polystyrene as it is very hard to straighten out a wall with rockwool bats. I assume it was open cell spray foam you used on the walls to let it breath?

That rockwool bats are a nightmare to do anything with alright , you would want to base coat them before even putting them on the wall
I actually went with closed cell straight onto the blue banger slates, its 3/4 years done now and no sweating . I have a few inspection panels that i peek at every now and then

CloughCasey1

Bullocks wrote: »

That rockwool bats are a nightmare to do anything with alright , you would want to base coat them before even putting them on the wall
I actually went with closed cell straight onto the blue banger slates, its 3/4 years done now and no sweating . I have a few inspection panels that i peek at every now and then

Thats good. Sprayfoam is some job to get a house airtight. All dormer homes built houses in 90's should be done with foam. Did an airtightness test on dormer house in Belmullet before and couldn't get a result. Would have more chance in a cattle shed!

CloughCasey1

annubis wrote: »

whats the norm, thought you would have to move them out if insulating externally?

Uaually a 150mm flashing is fixed under the line of the gutters and sealed tight. The insulation is fitted up to this. It ia there ti protect the exposed edge of the insulation. Same thing for barge overhangs on gables that wouldn't be out far enough.

farawaygrass

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

Thats good. Sprayfoam is some job to get a house airtight. All dormer homes built houses in 90's should be done with foam. Did an airtightness test on dormer house in Belmullet before and couldn't get a result. Would have more chance in a cattle shed!

Our 2005 built two storey is worse than a cattle shed. Was it or is it the norm still to have vents in the soffit, all along the full length? There is a stairs to the attic so there is a wicked fraught when it's windy outside.
This is a very interesting thread as I will hopefully being doing up an old farmhouse in the coming years. Anyone have a problem with low ceilings? And how would kitchen units work out? Also where the kitchen would probably be going, the windows are lower than counter level. It's a hard one to figure out. Maybe it would be best to put kitchen in extension.
I was talking to an engineer about the old house, and as someone else here said, he told me not to plaster them old stonewalls.

CloughCasey1

farawaygrass wrote: »

Our 2005 built two storey is worse than a cattle shed. Was it or is it the norm still to have vents in the soffit, all along the full length? There is a stairs to the attic so there is a wicked fraught when it's windy outside.
This is a very interesting thread as I will hopefully being doing up an old farmhouse in the coming years. Anyone have a problem with low ceilings? And how would kitchen units work out? Also where the kitchen would probably be going, the windows are lower than counter level. It's a hard one to figure out. Maybe it would be best to put kitchen in extension.
I was talking to an engineer about the old house, and as someone else here said, he told me not to plaster them old stonewalls.

Ventilation is as important as insulation. If not your roof does not breath then it rots. In new houses there is a breathable air tight membrane fitted to all external roof surfaces before slabbing. Look at www.siga.ch and it will explain more than I ever will. Only way to retro that is by sprayfoam while still maintaining an air gap along the felt as there is a slotted card fitted against the felt to help air circulate to let the timber breath.

annubis

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

Thats good. Sprayfoam is some job to get a house airtight. All dormer homes built houses in 90's should be done with foam. Did an airtightness test on dormer house in Belmullet before and couldn't get a result. Would have more chance in a cattle shed!

is there a problem with using spray foam on roof timbers? i often though that would ideal insulation for me, part of the roof would be very wide leading to large area unused space behind the walls upstairs, you can access these areas and move around easily enough

CloughCasey1

farawaygrass wrote: »

Our 2005 built two storey is worse than a cattle shed. Was it or is it the norm still to have vents in the soffit, all along the full length? There is a stairs to the attic so there is a wicked fraught when it's windy outside.
This is a very interesting thread as I will hopefully being doing up an old farmhouse in the coming years. Anyone have a problem with low ceilings? And how would kitchen units work out? Also where the kitchen would probably be going, the windows are lower than counter level. It's a hard one to figure out. Maybe it would be best to put kitchen in extension.
I was talking to an engineer about the old house, and as someone else here said, he told me not to plaster them old stonewalls.

Same engineers said not to pump cavities but we've done hundreds of surveys and condensation risk anylysis on them and there is no issue with dampness.

CloughCasey1

annubis wrote: »

is there a problem with using spray foam on roof timbers? i often though that would ideal insulation for me, part of the roof would be very wide leading to large area unused space behind the walls upstairs, you can access these areas and move around easily enough

Two different types of foam. Closed cell and open. Open is breathable but would always fit a slotted card against felt to ensure air to timber and dry up any condensation that may occur.

farawaygrass

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

Same engineers said not to pump cavities but we've done hundreds of surveys and condensation risk anylysis on them and there is no issue with dampness.

A friend pumped cavities and dry lined external walls. Super warm house

Bullocks

farawaygrass wrote: »

A friend pumped cavities and dry lined external walls. Super warm house

The smart lads building now are using a wider pumped cavity without drylining so it will have as thick an insulation and use the inner block to hold the heat

Farrell

annubis wrote: »

Co Clare

But far away, guys we have are from Cavan, they do a bit in Dublin, but sure what contractor Isn't these days

farawaygrass

Bullocks wrote: »

The smart lads building now are using a wider pumped cavity without drylining so it will have as thick an insulation and use the inner block to hold the heat

Clever

Farrell

annubis wrote: »

well this house would be a combination, the very very old stone house in the middle and then some 70s extensions at the front nad back, extensions would be block built anyway but dont know what type, solid cavity etc, its all plastered and always has been even in oldest pics ive seem, its was all newly roofed in 90s and there would be a very large roof area, again only insulated above ceiling

House we have is similar with old stone & 2 block add ons. The stone is getting Rock wool & the block bits polystyrene, also pumped the cavity on a block extension, and you can already notice a difference.
The external plaster was not removed before the insulation was fixed.

Farrell

Someone mentioned ventilation, if we'd the chance & could of completely gutted, we'd of put in a Heat recovery system

CloughCasey1

farawaygrass wrote: »

Clever

I have 8" cavity. Would have cost 1200 to get same u-value with kingspan in cavity

CloughCasey1

Farrell wrote: »

Someone mentioned ventilation, if we'd the chance & could of completely gutted, we'd of put in a Heat recovery system

Have it here its mighty. Fresh warm air instead of a gale through a vent

annubis

Farrell wrote: »

Someone mentioned ventilation, if we'd the chance & could of completely gutted, we'd of put in a Heat recovery system

its had to know what to do with the old houses, the layout of this house would be poor as you might expect after various extensions, in my parents time it was B&B house so lots of rooms with small pokey en suites, i sorta feel like the ground floor of the house should maybe be gutted but is say it would cost a bomb.

angusangus

Grew up in an Old farm house as well walls 3ft thick and old sash windows ! It was fresh in the summer but very cold during the winter ! Back then we had to scrape the ice off the inside of the windows by hand not like today's luxury of the. de-icer that comes in an arsol tin

Bullocks

angusangus wrote: »

Grew up in an Old farm house as well walls 3ft thick and old sash windows ! It was fresh in the summer but very cold during the winter ! Back then we had to scrape the ice off the inside of the windows by hand not like today's luxury of the. de-icer that comes in an arsol tin

That would put hair on your chest

farawaygrass

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

Have it here its mighty. Fresh warm air instead of a gale through a vent

Them vents are a balls of a job alright, even if you close them they whistle like mad when it's windy.

Farrell

annubis wrote: »

its had to know what to do with the old houses, the layout of this house would be poor as you might expect after various extensions, in my parents time it was B&B house so lots of rooms with small pokey en suites, i sorta feel like the ground floor of the house should maybe be gutted but is say it would cost a bomb.

Could you run 4" pipe between joices from front to back?

Miname

Farrell wrote: »

Could you run 4" pipe between joices from front to back?

It would be a waste of time. The air needs to circulate around the timbers and a lot of the sun floors are just earth so if this doesn't breathe it actually pulls in more damp. If your going to give an old house a renovation just do it real well once and have it finished with metal stud the walls out and insulate and stick in a warm air return system, good windows and seal the hell out of the attic.if your at it make sure the floors are properly done too, a lot of lads don't like the hassle and will either just patch the joists or throw out a bag or two of levelling compound. These need to be really well done and then just do the rooms bit by bit as you can afford. Get the basics right, too many people spend everything on having something that looks well but doesn't function.