unethical estate agent

nisebeck

Good morning everyone,

about 6 months ago, we paid a booking deposit on a site subject to planning. The site is part of a bigger unit which was divided into 2 lots. According to the estate agent, there was already a buyer for the second site in place. A few days after we payed the booking deposit, the estate agent produced a map other than the land registry map which which we were not given earlier. The map showed that our site is considerably smaller than the other site for the same price. None of this was disclosed at the start. We still went ahead and submitted our planning application.

When we looked up the planning for the other site, it turned out that the estate agent herself was going to buy the site. All along, she has not only been our estate agent but also the other buyer and deliberately negotiated the deal to her advantage.

During the course of the planning application, County Council required a shared entrance for both site and this entrance was to be located on our site. The estate agent/buyer proposed a co-ownership of the whole entrance area which we declined and we proposed in return to grant her right of way. We got no reply to that proposal but about 3 weeks later the vendor took our site off the market without any communication through the estate agent. We assume that the estate agent/buyer wasn't happy with needing a right of way and decided to boot us out to reconfigure site boundaries.

The whole development seem to confirm what we thought from the start - the estate agent is the one pulling the strings. Does anyone know whether there is anything we can do?
I have never dealt with property and estate agents before and I really would appreciate some help.

Thanks a lot in advance. Denise

MarkAnthony

I know I'm the first to defend the legal profession when sweeping generalisations are made but Estate agents and cabbies are the exceptions :pac:

EA's are sales people nothing more. Always check and double check.

There is a licensing authority and I have seen an EA selling a house for a partner of the same firm but it was clearly pointed out from the start. Other than that I can be of nor assistance. I'd assume it's a conflict and that there is a code of practice. I'd not put much hope in any complaint you make, but probably worth doing. Obviously it doesn't help you with the site you were looking to purchase.

Perhaps approach the vendore directly if you know who they are?

mrs vimes

nisebeck wrote: »

When we looked up the planning for the other site, it turned out that the estate agent herself was going to buy the site. All along, she has not only been our estate agent but also the other buyer and deliberately negotiated the deal to her advantage.

Hi Denise,

You need to remember that she is not and never was your estate agent. She is supposed to be working for the vendor and not for you. She's working against you, if anything.

If the vendor wants €x for the 2 sites, it probably doesn't matter to him what way the sites are split or what proportion of €x is paid by each purchaser.

I can't see your complaint that she is getting a larger site for the same money to hold much water - if you want the site that you are being offered at the price it is offered for then buy it, if not, don't. Getting hung up on what others get for their money is always going to cause upset.

That said, the Estate agent does have a duty to the vendor and if she is jeopardising the sale of the second site the vendor would probably be very interested.

@Markanthony, I don't see how an estate agent acting for their colleague or boss would be a conflict - they are both out to maximise the price.
An estate agent should of course declare to the seller if they intend to purchase the property and should advise the seller that they can't act for them and send them elsewhere.

nisebeck

We tried that to no avail. The estate agent seem to have complete control over the owner to an extend where we thought they might be related. Because there is an issue with the entrance to the site which was not resolved to he estate agent's/buyer's liking, the site boundaries will be reconfigured to the estate agent's/buyer's needs and it will go out for development again.

MarkAnthony

mrs vimes wrote: »

@Markanthony, I don't see how an estate agent acting for their colleague or boss would be a conflict - they are both out to maximise the price.
An estate agent should of course declare to the seller if they intend to purchase the property and should advise the seller that they can't act for them and send them elsewhere.

It's not an a transaction at arm's length. I dont see an issue with an EA acting for another person within the business if declared, but working for themselves and even declaring it? Seems fishy to me.

mrs vimes

MarkAnthony wrote: »

It's not an a transaction at arm's length. I dont see an issue with an EA acting for another person within the business if declared, but working for themselves and even declaring it? Seems fishy to me.

But the EA is acting for the vendor, and (ideally) only in the vendor's interests. Their interests align, so how can there be conflict?

After all, a person can sell their own house without an agent so why would an EA need to be at arms length?

People seem to think of the EA as some kind of referee or neutral party and then get upset that he is biased in favour of the vendor or something.

MarkAnthony

mrs vimes wrote: »

But the EA is acting for the vendor, and (ideally) only in the vendor's interests. Their interests align, so how can there be conflict?

After all, a person can sell their own house without an agent so why would an EA need to be at arms length?

People seem to think of the EA as some kind of referee or neutral party and then get upset that he is biased in favour of the vendor or something.

Because there is a difference between profit maximisation at arms length and actively working for your own self, as opposed to professional interest. When a non-EA sells their own house or even if an EA is selling their own house they do so as a Joe soap without the trappings of a membership to a professional, regulated, body. Surely you can see there is a conflict here on at least the Vendor's side?

This is all neither here nor there to be frank though, it's either a breach of the ethical standards laid down or it's not and I don't care enough to look them up :pac: over to the OP or more motivated interested party than I.

Graham

Take a look at:

http://www.ipav.ie

There is a Conflict of Interests Section but it appears to apply to conflicts between the EA and the EA's client (the seller):
http://www.ipav.ie/sites/default/files/ipav_code_of_conduct.pdf

http://www.npsra.ie/website/npsra/npsraweb.nsf/page/index-en

CaoimheSquee

Complaints go to the regulator for investigation. (Property Services Regulator).

But as others have said the EA acts for vendor and if they were instructed to take site/s off the market for redevelopment then that is what they have to do.

nisebeck

thanks a million for all your replies. It was my first attempt of buying property and yes, I have been a very naive about the whole thing. The site was supposed to be sold subject to planning and our planning application is still live which gives me some more time to consider my next steps. Unfortunately, iPav doesn't apply because the EA isn't a member. But I will certainly look into the psra.

MarkAnthony

Not really legal advice but take all emotion out of it. Nothing is your until you have the keys. I was literally in the packed van when I got a call from our solicitor telling me there was a problem with searches.

Also don't be afraid (IMHO) to be sale agreed on multiple properties if you need to be. I'd have always said this was a no no but after my recent purchase I won't be letting my morals get in the way again, it seems no one else does. If the vendor is serious about getting a deal done they'll be first and get your cash, the others can doddle about and lose the sale.

davo10

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Not really legal advice but take all emotion out of it. Nothing is your until you have the keys. I was literally in the packed van when I got a call from our solicitor telling me there was a problem with searches.

Also don't be afraid (IMHO) to be sale agreed on multiple properties if you need to be. I'd have always said this was a no no but after my recent purchase I won't be letting my morals get in the way again, it seems no one else does. If the vendor is serious about getting a deal done they'll be first and get your cash, the others can doddle about and lose the sale.

To go "sale agreed" you usually have to pay a deposit, surely you are not advising the op to pay multiple deposits? I seriously hope you are not training to be a lawyer.

Also, that will tend to drive up the price of all the properties you do not actually buy as the EA will then start the new bid at that price, not to mention all the other underbidders whose time you waste and disappoint.

MarkAnthony

davo10 wrote: »

To go "sale agreed" you usually have to pay a deposit, surely you are not advising the op to pay multiple deposits? I seriously hope you are not training to be a lawyer.

Also, that will tend to drive up the price of all the properties you do not actually buy as the EA will then start the new bid at that price, not to mention all the other underbidders whose time you waste and disappoint.

You have to pay a fully refundable booking deposit. I seriously hope you're not waffling on about something you've no clue about.

overshoot

nisebeck wrote: »

thanks a million for all your replies. It was my first attempt of buying property and yes, I have been a very naive about the whole thing. The site was supposed to be sold subject to planning and our planning application is still live which gives me some more time to consider my next steps. Unfortunately, iPav doesn't apply because the EA isn't a member. But I will certainly look into the psra.

From an architects pov I thought id add something, the planning application doesnt necessarily gives you extra time.planning is on land, not by name. If the application is granted and the sale falls through you may have just increased the value of the land for the vendor and you may have little comeback. I would be looking to finalise contracts/landholdings/ROWs quickly.

If it is an F.I.stage (which it sounds like) you may have time to sort this out. If the council want one entrance the E.A. will have to start playing ball with you as their application is dependent on yours. Get a bit of input from your architect/solicitor

davo10

MarkAnthony wrote: »

You have to pay a fully refundable booking deposit. I seriously hope you're not waffling on about something you've no clue about.

So let's say a deposit is 5%, on a €200k property that's €10k, you are advising the op to throw around a couple of €10k deposits? Seriously?

Not to mention the effect on other bidders.

What makes you think I've "no clue", how experienced do you have to be in property deals to have a clue?

MarkAnthony

davo10 wrote: »

So let's say a deposit is 5%, on a €200k property that's €10k, you are advising the op to throw around a couple of €10k deposits? Seriously?

Not to mention the effect on other bidders.

What makes you think I've "no clue", how experienced do you have to be in property deals to have a clue?

If you want to attack the post that's fair enough, attack me personally and expect me to bite back. If you don't have the wit to do that then I think no clue generally applies.

TOMP

Sounds very fishy and unethical to me. You should report the EA to the Property Services Regulatory Authority

Rackstar

You should take down the identifiable information.

I had a look at both applications. The configuration of the 2 sites is exactly the same as the two beside. Your site has to be narrower to allow space for the access road going to the back site.

nisebeck

I probably complained a bit hard about the size of the 2 sites. As I said I was a bit naive about the whole thing and the advice I got from the solicitor and architect didn't help at all as they suggested to go back for renegotiations. I should have kept stumm and got my act together - without emotions.

The deal went wrong though when it turned out that the EA had to get right of way across our land to access her site. A few days later we were out on our ears.

Rackstar

It does sound like bad form and unethical. Have you been left with no site and a hefty architect fee?

The same EA has another site for sale in that area for €120k

nisebeck

Yes they have another site which is a good alternative and fits our plans. What do I do though so history doesn't repeat itself? Unfortunately I have to involve banks and they require full planning.

nisebeck

overshoot wrote: »

From an architects pov I thought id add something, the planning application doesnt necessarily gives you extra time.planning is on land, not by name. If the application is granted and the sale falls through you may have just increased the value of the land for the vendor and you may have little comeback. I would be looking to finalise contracts/landholdings/ROWs quickly.

If it is an F.I.stage (which it sounds like) you may have time to sort this out. If the council want one entrance the E.A. will have to start playing ball with you as their application is dependent on yours. Get a bit of input from your architect/solicitor

I suspect they are quite willing to let their planning go and submit from scratch with reconfigured site boundaries.

faceman

What has your solicitor advised?

CaoimheSquee

faceman wrote: »

What has your solicitor advised?

Good question!

Tbh, it does sound a little fishy nisebeck and I would definitely contact the PSRA.
EA don't have to be part of IPAV and even if they were it wouldn't hold much weight with a complaint and I would imagine they just direct people to the regulator now.
However ALL estate agents must have a licence and follow the law with regards contracts for sale, logging bids and check for conflicts. The Regulator can investigate all paperwork and demand full responses backed up with documents.

Good luck.

nisebeck

The solicitor wrote a letter to vendor stating that we won't withdraw the live planning and that we'll demand compensation for architect fees and so on. He seem to be of the oppinion that nothing can be done about EA. He mentioned iPav but basically said that a complaint to psra is a waste of time. I can't figure out whether he is being realistic about this or not too savy.

Also, if we go for a new site with the same EA how can we minimise the chance that we will be outwitted again?

CaoimheSquee

It's not a waste of time to go to the PSRA, it would certainly be a waste of time to go to IPAV though.
Before the regulator there was IPAV and another organisation (that the name of has completely gone from my memory right now!) that were sort of best practice organisations that estate agents could join, but voluntarily. There would have been a code of ethics and if there was a complaint you went to them but there were no laws or regulations being broken at the end of the day.

I am not an EA but I work in the industry years and I know that complaints are very much investigated with much more vigour as there is much more on the line now rather than just a telling off.

With the new CEO now too a company has been outsourced to do regular audits of EA's and to impose the penalties. The PSRA has been slow indeed in making itself known properly publically but within the industry it shook up a lot of things - especially by way of the licence. The EA's coming through now must hold qualifications and experience and all have compliance DRILLED into them. The old school ones are hard to turn though!

You have nothing to lose anyway and I personally think it is absolutely no harm for these EA's potentially acting with disregard to the regulations and regulator should be pointed out!

Pat Mustard

nisebeck wrote: »

Also, if we go for a new site with the same EA how can we minimise the chance that we will be outwitted again?

You should ask a solicitor about this.

It is possible to enter into a contract for the purchase of land with a condition that will allow you to resile from said contract in the event that planning permission cannot be granted or that it cannot be granted without planning conditions which you deem unfavourable.

In that way, if you enter into such a conditional contract, when planning permission has been obtained to your satisfaction, you may rely on the contract to purchase the property.

Otherwise, you would find yourself in the position in which you have already found yourself, having paid for planning permission without having any right to purchase the land.

You need a solicitor who can advise on how you can best protect your interests.

Pat Mustard

Mod:

Connor Nice Furnace, that does not assist the discussion. Please refrain from this sort of comment.

nisebeck

overshoot wrote: »

From an architects pov I thought id add something, the planning application doesnt necessarily gives you extra time.planning is on land, not by name. If the application is granted and the sale falls through you may have just increased the value of the land for the vendor and you may have little comeback. I would be looking to finalise contracts/landholdings/ROWs quickly.

If it is an F.I.stage (which it sounds like) you may have time to sort this out. If the council want one entrance the E.A. will have to start playing ball with you as their application is dependent on yours. Get a bit of input from your architect/solicitor

Our architect is more an engineer than an architect. Just a quick question, if I get refused planning what does that mean for the future of the land and the other site that depends on me agreeing to the entrance.