Seniors and their Subscription Level

Hacker111

All,

I would like to understand how much seniors pay for an annual sub in different clubs based on the full subscription.

In my club for example they pay 20% of the full sub if they have 10 years unbroken membership.....

Comparables?

Ollieboy

Most clubs are trying to move away from discounting membership for older members seen that most clubs are now made up of older retired members.

My club offers nothing at the moment and I've spoken to Treasurers at other clubs and they have all said they are trying to move away from it. It's just not affordable for most clubs.

Retired people also get the best value out of golf club membership and can play mid week. My own personal view is let them take up the cheaper 5 day membership offers.

mike12

Around 25% off in roganstown. No requirement for length of membership.
Lots of the members courses have/had a really low rate for seniors causing them a lot of financial hardship with the ageing membership. That's what they have the reduced fee for the under 30s

Hacker111

We are a members club and had 0% sub up until a few years ago for seniors....only got the 20% through in 2014 due to a financial sh1tstorm in the club..... not a massive number of seniors (60) and some don't play that much so you might just force them away completely if it moved to 40%, views?

Plus they are the guys "who built the club and put in countless hours on committees".

Boskowski

I think my club freezes the membership for them when they turn 65. So for the rest of their golf they won't have any sub increases. Thats about it.

golfwallah

Hacker111 wrote: »

We are a members club and had 0% sub up until a few years ago for seniors....only got the 20% through in 2014 due to a financial sh1tstorm in the club..... not a massive number of seniors (60) and some don't play that much so you might just force them away completely if it moved to 40%, views?

Plus they are the guys "who built the club and put in countless hours on committees".

As the financial and membership revenue situation can differ from club to club, I would think it best to come up with options that best meet the situation in each club.

For example, our club, in common with many others, also has a growing senior membership, i.e. almost the biggest growth area of all member categories. We have also had special full membership offers for new members of €695 (down from the full sub level of €1,100). We are located about 15km from Dublin city centre.

This year a sub-committee was set up to review and report on senior membership for the AGM, which has now been done and members accepted the following recommendations (following lively debate on the pros and cons):
• Existing senior members – current rate of €597 for last few years increased to €695 from 2016
• 65 – 69 years of age with 20 years membership - reduction of €150 to €950
• 70 – 74 years of age with 20 years membership – reduction of €250 to €850
• 75+ years of age regardless of date joining – 30% discount, reduction to €770

I think this is a fair compromise, given our financial situation and the wishes of our members. However, I don’t think it’s a one size fits all situation (the nearest club down the road, for example, have abolished senior rates altogether, but their finances are vastly different). So, best to work out a solution that best fits your individual circumstances, I would think. The main things are to take action to balance the books, take what competitor clubs are doing into account and, at the same time, bring a majority of members along with whatever change is proposed.

ShivasIrons

golfwallah wrote: »

As the financial and membership revenue situation can differ from club to club, I would think it best to come up with options that best meet the situation in each club.

For example, our club, in common with many others, also has a growing senior membership, i.e. almost the biggest growth area of all member categories. We have also had special full membership offers for new members of €695 (down from the full sub level of €1,100). We are located about 15km from Dublin city centre.

This year a sub-committee was set up to review and report on senior membership for the AGM, which has now been done and members accepted the following recommendations (following lively debate on the pros and cons):
• Existing senior members – current rate of €597 for last few years increased to €695 from 2016
• 65 – 69 years of age with 20 years membership - reduction of €150 to €950
• 70 – 74 years of age with 20 years membership – reduction of €250 to €850
• 75+ years of age regardless of date joining – 30% discount, reduction to €770

I think this is a fair compromise, given our financial situation and the wishes of our members. However, I don’t think it’s a one size fits all situation (the nearest club down the road, for example, have abolished senior rates altogether, but their finances are vastly different). So, best to work out a solution that best fits your individual circumstances, I would think. The main things are to take action to balance the books, take what competitor clubs are doing into account and, at the same time, bring a majority of members along with whatever change is proposed.

I don't understand how there can be a special offer for new members yet the members who have been there a number of years and supported the club through out don't get anything close to that offer.

First Up

ShivasIrons wrote:

I don't understand how there can be a special offer for new members yet the members who have been there a number of years and supported the club through out don't get anything close to that offer.

Introductory offers are a feature of many businesses.

ShivasIrons

First Up wrote: »

Introductory offers are a feature of many businesses.

Introductory offers for a years golf membership undermines the value of the current members membership. These offers should only be 1-3 months in duration.

How many take up the offers only to move on to another offer the following year?

First Up

Well that applies to mobile phones service, cable TV, health insurance and a bunch of other businesses that operate in the "churn" - i.e. competition for a finite number of customers in a stagnant market.

Since golf expanded beyond the member owned, entrance fee, demand exceeding supply era, clubs are trying to entice people to join and then hoping they can hold on to them.

I much preferred the time when people committed to a club and understood that what you put in mattered as much as what you took out. (A view that nowadays gets you labelled as an elitist snob.)

But with easy movement between clubs, people will take up the deals that suit them. That puts the onus on clubs to make people first join and then want to stay.

Introductory offers are part of that and unless we can educate the golfing masses in the club ethos, I fear they are here to stay.

golfwallah

ShivasIrons wrote: »

I don't understand how there can be a special offer for new members yet the members who have been there a number of years and supported the club through out don't get anything close to that offer.

It’s about survival in a very competitive market where supply greatly exceeds demand.

And, I agree, it’s not “fair”, looking at it from the point of view of existing full members paying the full whack. But, with exception of a few very wealthy clubs, the majority of member clubs have to recruit new members in the broader, big bad world as it is, not just from the narrow internal perspective of fair play for existing loyal members. You also have to consider that (according to English Golf) normal annual member attrition rates for golf clubs in these islands = about 10%. So you gotta bring a lot in to replace those leaving (on account of age, health, death, time availability, family considerations, job, etc.).

After a lot of internal debate and past experience of declining revenues, more and more members are seeing this as a question of balance, give and take, and, of course, looking at the alternatives (of gradually declining finances, standards, etc.).

I know there are market differences between Ireland to Spain but the following high level stats show how the level of equilibrium between supply and demand affects prices:
• Ireland: Population 5M, Affiliated Golf Clubs: 420 – 1 club per 12,000 population - declining prices
• Spain: Population 48M, Affiliated Golf Clubs: 380 – 1 club per 126,000 population - steady prices

Kingswood Rover

ShivasIrons wrote: »

I don't understand how there can be a special offer for new members yet the members who have been there a number of years and supported the club through out don't get anything close to that offer.

I presume there can't in a members owned club unless they vote it in.

Ollieboy

golfwallah wrote: »

I know there are market differences between Ireland to Spain but the following high level stats show how the level of equilibrium between supply and demand affects prices:
• Ireland: Population 5M, Affiliated Golf Clubs: 420 – 1 club per 12,000 population - declining prices
• Spain: Population 48M, Affiliated Golf Clubs: 380 – 1 club per 126,000 population - steady prices

The above point is very important, we need about 120 clubs to disappear in Ireland so that the quality of clubs improves due to more stable income from membership and green fee income.

I discuss this with a few friends at the weekend and we felt the best way forward was something along these lines:

25 or 30 years service to the club as a member - at the age of 66 or 70 they get discount membership to a 25% of the full membership fee along with levy's etc. The discount membership kicks in when they hit the 25/30 years and not age.

At 80 the discount membership gets reduced to 0%. I hope I'm playing at 80 to see that. I'm currently 14 years with my club and only 41, so I think the above idea is fair as it rewards loyalty to a club.

Hacker111

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

I presume there can't in a members owned club unless they vote it in.

not necessarily, we are a member run club but have a special new member rate of €749 for 2016 with existing member paying €999. We ran it on a "pro rata" basis which allowed for a discount to be given and for the club to stay within the constitution.

The existing membership in clubs need to understand that new members are critical to the club surviving/progressing and you have to be ultra competitive to attract new guys in. Price is absolutely key.

We ran a €789 deal the last two years and picked up 60 new members, with c. 85% staying on as member and paying the increase in sub in year two...worked very well.

mike12

We don't really need 120 clubs to close. Outsideof the urban areas people join their local course and play there all their lives.

Russman

Hacker111 wrote: »

not necessarily, we are a member run club but have a special new member rate of €749 for 2016 with existing member paying €999. We ran it on a "pro rata" basis which allowed for a discount to be given and for the club to stay within the constitution.

The existing membership in clubs need to understand that new members are critical to the club surviving/progressing and you have to be ultra competitive to attract new guys in. Price is absolutely key.

We ran a €789 deal the last two years and picked up 60 new members, with c. 85% staying on as member and paying the increase in sub in year two...worked very well.

This is a key point. Unfortunately the existing members need to "suck it up" to an extent, if survival is the priority.
We have it in my club at the moment, new members can get in for €600 (could even be cheaper if under 35) and existing are paying €1,200. The idea is that over the next 3 years both new and existing fees meet at some mid-point. Hard to stomach as a long term member but such is the market and circumstances. The real trick is figuring out where to draw the line before you start driving people away.

Ollieboy

Russman wrote: »

The real trick is figuring out where to draw the line before you start driving people away.

This is the real issue... if people believe they can get cheaper membership by moving around clubs each year, then it won't work. Golf clubs need to work together and protect pricing and make people choose due to location and facilities and not the price.

And why make it harder for the members you've been loyal to the club, this will cause problems in some clubs.

At the moment we are taken in between 10 to 15 new members each week and I reckon in the next 2 to 3 years we'll be back to full membership and all members will pay the same at that stage, which will hopefully be around the 1k mark

In my area in Dublin I've the selection off 33 clubs, even in my old home town in Donegal of less then 3,000 people we had 2 clubs and 2 more within a short drive. Just far to many clubs for to few people in Ireland.

mike12

Ollieboy wrote: »

This is the real issue... if people believe they can get cheaper membership by moving around clubs each year, then it won't work. Golf clubs need to work together and protect pricing and make people choose due to location and facilities and not the price.

And why make it harder for the members you've been loyal to the club, this will cause problems in some clubs.

At the moment we are taken in between 10 to 15 new members each week and I reckon in the next 2 to 3 years we'll be back to full membership and all members will pay the same at that stage, which will hopefully be around the 1k mark

In my area in Dublin I've the selection off 33 clubs, even in my old home town in Donegal of less then 3,000 people we had 2 clubs and 2 more within a short drive. Just far to many clubs for to few people in Ireland.

How many members does a club really need to survive, maybe 500 members.
Lots of clubs it's the bar and the spending on the interclubs and the fancy club houses that has caused the financial hardship.

Kingswood Rover

Ollieboy wrote: »

This is the real issue... if people believe they can get cheaper membership by moving around clubs each year, then it won't work. Golf clubs need to work together and protect pricing and make people choose due to location and facilities and not the price.

And why make it harder for the members you've been loyal to the club, this will cause problems in some clubs.

At the moment we are taken in between 10 to 15 new members each week and I reckon in the next 2 to 3 years we'll be back to full membership and all members will pay the same at that stage, which will hopefully be around the 1k mark

In my area in Dublin I've the selection off 33 clubs, even in my old home town in Donegal of less then 3,000 people we had 2 clubs and 2 more within a short drive. Just far to many clubs for to few people in Ireland.

Is'nt this is illegal under competition laws, could be deemed as running a cartel

Kingswood Rover

Hacker111 wrote: »

not necessarily, we are a member run club but have a special new member rate of €749 for 2016 with existing member paying €999. We ran it on a "pro rata" basis which allowed for a discount to be given and for the club to stay within the constitution.

The existing membership in clubs need to understand that new members are critical to the club surviving/progressing and you have to be ultra competitive to attract new guys in. Price is absolutely key.

We ran a €789 deal the last two years and picked up 60 new members, with c. 85% staying on as member and paying the increase in sub in year two...worked very well.

Point taken on prices being within a band as laid out in the constitution, but in saying that you may retain more of the disgruntled members with a vote. We have not gone down the road of incentivizing new members with a lower sub than existing members. We have come at it from the other angle by incentivizing existing members with lower subs for introducing new members to the club.We have no discounts for age other than a new under 25's category.

ShivasIrons

First Up wrote: »

Well that applies to mobile phones service, cable TV, health insurance and a bunch of other businesses that operate in the "churn" - i.e. competition for a finite number of customers in a stagnant market.

Since golf expanded beyond the member owned, entrance fee, demand exceeding supply era, clubs are trying to entice people to join and then hoping they can hold on to them.

I much preferred the time when people committed to a club and understood that what you put in mattered as much as what you took out. (A view that nowadays gets you labelled as an elitist snob.)

But with easy movement between clubs, people will take up the deals that suit them. That puts the onus on clubs to make people first join and then want to stay.

Introductory offers are part of that and unless we can educate the golfing masses in the club ethos, I fear they are here to stay.

Cable TV, Mobile phone operators etc. are not known for their customer service. They nearly always feature in the worst customer service surveys. Wouldn't it be far better for customers to get one month free tv every 24 months service rather then give new customers 3 months free in the first year?

There are many reasons to join a club and price is normally not the main factor however when clubs promote their clubs based on price only then that's what they are indicating.

This is what clubs do because they lack the knowledge and imagination to do otherwise and then they wonder why they are in financial trouble. Promoting by price also indicates to me that clubs see external factors as being the cause of their troubles rather then the invariable internal factors.

ShivasIrons

Hacker111 wrote: »

not necessarily, we are a member run club but have a special new member rate of €749 for 2016 with existing member paying €999. We ran it on a "pro rata" basis which allowed for a discount to be given and for the club to stay within the constitution.

The existing membership in clubs need to understand that new members are critical to the club surviving/progressing and you have to be ultra competitive to attract new guys in. Price is absolutely key.

We ran a €789 deal the last two years and picked up 60 new members, with c. 85% staying on as member and paying the increase in sub in year two...worked very well.

If the new members are staying on with the higher price, does this show that price is not the biggest factor in whether they're a member of the club or not?

First Up

ShivasIrons wrote:

This is what clubs do because they lack the knowledge and imagination to do otherwise and then they wonder why they are in financial trouble. Promoting by price also indicates to me that clubs see external factors as being the cause of their troubles rather then the invariable internal factors.

As I said, introductory offers are widely used as a means of attracting business in a wide range of sectors. The reason they are widely used is because they work.

How golf clubs manage their overall finances is a wider topic but if a club sets out to recruit new members, a favourable entry price is a perfectly legitimate part of their "value proposition."

ShivasIrons

First Up wrote: »

As I said, introductory offers are widely used as a means of attracting business in a wide range of sectors. The reason they are widely used is because they work.

How golf clubs manage their overall finances is a wider topic but if a club sets out to recruit new members, a favourable entry price is a perfectly legitimate part of their "value proposition."

New customers shouldn't get better treatment or deals then existing customers. Imagine going into a restaurant and looking for a half price meal because it's your first time eating there?

Regular customers get looked after in restaurants. Golf clubs need to start doing this.

First Up

ShivasIrons wrote:

Regular customers get looked after in restaurants. Golf clubs need to start doing this.

Both customer acquisition and customer retention are important to any business.