new housing estate in a Limk village - requirement for social housing?

limklad1974

Hi,
A few years ago, a developer wanted to buy a field next to our small local village and build approx. 30 houses. The scheme never went ahead. Locals objected.

The objections were based on the fear that some of the houses would be turned over to 'social housing' and this would bring an undesirable element to the village (I'm not agreeing with this, just stating what people said at the time, so please don't get angry!)

I was wondering if someone can provide some expertise on this area. Is it true that if a developer wanted to build a certain number of houses, Limk county council would have made him turn over a certain number and make them available for social housing?

Thanks

BryanF

A certain % of houses or cash settlement

Oafley Jones

A developer could always pay off the social housing requirement if they didn't want to provide it in their development. I'm not sure if this is still the case.

sydthebeat

Oafley Jones wrote: »

A developer could always pay off the social housing requirement if they didn't want to provide it in their development. I'm not sure if this is still the case.

this was not always acceptable in all councils, some councils insist on "no. of units" rather than a cash payoff.

limklad1974

Ok guys. thanks for the info. Any idea what sort of a cash settlement is involved?

Lets say a new developer came on board and 'only' wanted to build 10-12 houses. Value of house approx. €200 - 250k.

sydthebeat

http://www.housing.ie/housing-information/a-property-developer.aspx

http://www.laois.ie/media/Media,829,en.pdf

have a read of these

limklad1974

sydthebeat, thanks a million for the links. Even though the link is for Laois County council, I presume similar guidelines apply in Limerick.

if the developer wants to pay the cash settlement, it appears to be 17.5 of the value of the overall new housing estate. In my example, 12 houses at 200k each would be valued at €2.4 million, and 17.5% of this would mean the developer would pay €420,000 to avoid having any of the houses made available to social housing schemes... seems a lot!!!

sydthebeat

limklad1974 wrote: »

sydthebeat, thanks a million for the links. Even though the link is for Laois County council, I presume similar guidelines apply in Limerick.

if the developer wants to pay the cash settlement, it appears to be 17.5 of the value of the overall new housing estate. In my example, 12 houses at 200k each would be valued at €2.4 million, and 17.5% of this would mean the developer would pay €420,000 to avoid having any of the houses made available to social housing schemes... seems a lot!!!

no thats not the way it works.

the value of the house is:
the existing site use (usually agricultural value) +
site development works +
construction costs +
builders profit (10-15%)

so lets assume.....
a development of 12 houses.
17.5% of that is 2.1 (round down to 2) so 2 units required to be 'social and affordable'
the existing site use is agri, so the value of an agri acre is about 30,000. lest assume theres a density of 7 to an acre so thats roughly a 2 acre site. 2 acres @ €30,000 divided by 12 is €2500... so the developer gets 2.5k for each site each house is on.
lets assume 75k construction costs
lets assume 10k site development costs per site
so for each unit thats
2,500 + 75,000 + 10,000 = 87,500 costs per unit
lets assume council give 15% builders profit thats a total of €100,625 per unit.

thats an approximation of what the council would be prepared to pay the developer for a turn key house

now if a developer wants to offered cash in lieu of the actual unit, in my experience the council would look at this figure and ask for something higher... maybe another 10-15%.... as the value of the unit to the developer is much greater.

limklad1974

sydthebeat that's a great example, many many thanks!
I'll try and figure out what the potential cost is for any development in our area.
One question - you have the cost of an agri acre at €30,000 - are you taking it that if someone wanted to buy a 1 acre 'site' for a house, that's what they would pay? Because the cost of buying an acre of agri land for agri purposes is about €10,000 at the moment...

sydthebeat

limklad1974 wrote: »

sydthebeat that's a great example, many many thanks!
I'll try and figure out what the potential cost is for any development in our area.
One question - you have the cost of an agri acre at €30,000 - are you taking it that if someone wanted to buy a 1 acre 'site' for a house, that's what they would pay? Because the cost of buying an acre of agri land for agri purposes is about €10,000 at the moment...

i took the 'david drumm, school of economics' figure...

what ever the current value of the "existing use" of the site is the important factor.....

if your thinking about developing a site... then definitely have a chat with the housing section of the council. they will tell you teh specifics of how limerick work

limklad1974

My figures look a bit crazy, maybe cos each potential house is allocated a fair amount of land (between 0.5 and 0.75) acres.
So here goes:
Price per acre: €30,000
Houses 15
Acres: 13

Total cost of acres = 13 x €30,000 = €390,000
Cost of acre per house €26,000

Construction costs €100,000 (based on building higher quality houses)
Site development costs per house = €10,000

Cost per unit = €26,000 + €100,000 + €10,000 = €136,000

Builder profit = 15%

Cost of house that council would pay builder = €136,000 x 115% = €156,400

Council uplift = 15%

Cost the developer would need to pay council to not have social housing = €179,860 per unit

@ 3 houses

Total cost = €539,580

sydthebeat

yeah thats pretty crazy density....

also, the council have strict design guidelines for their social houses
ie a typical 3 bed 2 storey wont be above 110 sq m ... and thus your construction costs will be limited and your finishing will be standard

see page 49 here

if the development is very low density with very large exclusive dwellings, it makes sense to offer a cash payment (though i dont necessarily agree with it as a widespread policy)
if they dont agree to a cash payment, perhaps look at a redesign of the site to include the 3 houses as a separate enclave.

(15 @17.5% = 2.625 ... rounded up to 3..... i have seen cases where in this case the council would look for 2 houses + 62.5% costs of the third house)

limklad1974

your costs mentioned €75k as the cost per constructed house, this seems very low - would this be an industry 'standard'.

I'm guessing the developer would be looking to build decent spec bungalows.

sydthebeat

limklad1974 wrote: »

your costs mentioned €75k as the cost per constructed house, this seems very low - would this be an industry 'standard'.

I'm guessing the developer would be looking to build decent spec bungalows.

if your building an estate of 12 houses you will be able to achieve economies of scale.... but youll have to work out yourself what your costs are.

as i said already, the council will only pay for a certain specification in the houses offered as social and affordable... not point installing travertine marble tiles if they wont pay you the going rate for them.

BryanF

limklad1974 wrote: »

My figures look a bit crazy, maybe cos each potential house is allocated a fair amount of land (between 0.5 and 0.75) acres.
So here goes:
Price per acre: €30,000
Houses 15
Acres: 13

Total cost of acres = 13 x €30,000 = €390,000
Cost of acre per house €26,000

Construction costs €100,000 (based on building higher quality houses)
Site development costs per house = €10,000

Cost per unit = €26,000 + €100,000 + €10,000 = €136,000

Builder profit = 15%

Cost of house that council would pay builder = €136,000 x 115% = €156,400

Council uplift = 15%

Cost the developer would need to pay council to not have social housing = €179,860 per unit

@ 3 houses

Total cost = €539,580

That density should not be accepted by limerick coco! Best to read their Dev plan

limklad1974

BryanF I have had a quick look at the document now...

https://www.limerick.ie/sites/default/files/volume_1_written_statement_as_varied_september_2014_0.pdf

On Section 2.6, it talks about a density of 22 units per Hecate (for anything outside the city environs)

Is this what you are referring to?

limklad1974

or were you referring to the fact that a small village (Tier 6) would only allow a development of 4-5 houses?

BryanF

So 1hectare is 2.47 acres - you do the maths

limklad1974

Hi BryanF,
So if the developer got access to the 13 acres, he would have approx. 5.25 hectares.
Multiply this by 22 and he would have to build 115 houses to comply with the Density 'guidelines'...

But the Limerick County Development Plan states that for a Tier 6 area, only developments of 4-5 houses would be eligible. So such a large scheme couldn't possibly get approved.

If the developer only got access to 8 acres and agreed to build 4-5 houses and turn the remaining land over to the local community for sports pitches, parks etc, do you think the council would look favourably on this? The 4-5 houses might take up approx. 2 acres (0.5 acre site each) so this might not fall into the density guidelines.
Thanks for the great advice so far!

sydthebeat

youre gone from a social housing question to a pure planning question.

There are so many different variables when it comes to planning that its pretty much impossible to comment on without being intimately involved.
questions like, is the land currently zoned, if so for what?
does the village have an effluent treatment system, if so can it take more loading?
can the access roads take more car movements safely?
is there a sustainable urban drainage issue?
etc etc

all these need to be considered , and more, before you even think about commissioning a planning application

ive seen these kind of "rural generated urban housing schemes" where developers try to create a housing scheme in a rural setting with inadequate municipal services... and they are pretty much always refused. i cannot see 13 acres in a tier 6 rural village being zoned for housing.

BryanF

limklad1974 wrote: »

Hi BryanF,
So if the developer got access to the 13 acres, he would have approx. 5.25 hectares.
Multiply this by 22 and he would have to build 115 houses to comply with the Density 'guidelines'...

But the Limerick County Development Plan states that for a Tier 6 area, only developments of 4-5 houses would be eligible. So such a large scheme couldn't possibly get approved.

If the developer only got access to 8 acres and agreed to build 4-5 houses and turn the remaining land over to the local community for sports pitches, parks etc, do you think the council would look favourably on this? The 4-5 houses might take up approx. 2 acres (0.5 acre site each) so this might not fall into the density guidelines.
Thanks for the great advice so far!

Hire an architect/ planning consultant

limklad1974

Hi Sydthebeat - thanks for the info.
Yes I realise I am moving off the social housing question for a minute, as a concerned local resident I am trying to figure out what the developer may get granted and what he may not!!
If he cannot get zoning for a much larger field, what if he went after approx. 8 acres and got 2 - 2.5 acres zoned for housing and can the rest be 'zoned' for public parks, play areas etc...
There is no village effluent treatment system and access to three of the four new houses would be via a new private 'road' or driveway..

I did a quick drawing in Excel, to show the potential site. There are 3 current houses, and approx. 8 acres of land left in a field. It is surrounded by a road on two sides. What I am hoping to suggest to the developer is that he build 4 new houses and leave the remaining land to the community for playing areas, playground etc...

Hope the drawing makes sense, ask any questions if it doesn't!!

sydthebeat

sorry, things arent adding up here for me. from your questions i dont think your a "concerned resident" but rather a prospective developer. a concerned resident would have no interest in the compensation for social housing, not would they be in any position to make suggestions to a developer.

id suggest taking bryanf's advise from here on in.

limklad1974

Hi Syd, I'm not a developer at all, I saw the ideas that the developer had in mind before and first of all wanted to get advice on the social housing aspect, as that's where he fell down before with objections from locals. Secondly, my drawing was done for my own interest as I want to try and put forward a 'local' suggestion for what would be agreeable as regards any development, rather than having a development forced on us... hence the inclusion of all sorts of nice to have local things like playgrounds, fields, tennis courts and astro pitches!!

I appreciate the advice you and BryanF gave though, thanks again guys.

sydthebeat

well from the point of view that the village has no treatment system, id suggest that any kind of planned development like that would be completely unacceptable unless the developer was willing to fork out for an acceptable treatment system for the village.
as a community that should be first on your list if your want to develop the village.

limklad1974

Hi Syd, yes I fully agree that a treatment system would be a pre-req to any further development of the village and surrounding areas. The fact that the developer would have to add this to his list of costs might be starting to make the whole thing unviable!!
I presume a treatment plant for the village (which currently has 15 houses) would be a few hundred grand if you think about building costs, land purchase and the costs to connect up each current house...

Angry bird

Sounds like the site and village is not zoned land and if so no social housing applies.

Angry bird

As for communal treatment plants, Councils shouldn't touch with a barge pole.

Metric Tensor

If they are half acre plus sites the developer is more than likely planning to propose individual effluent treatment for each house. It would then be up to the council to decide if the proliferation of percolation areas would be safe for the local aquifer - bearing in mind that there's probably 15 systems in place already. (No doubt some of which are under performing - through no fault of the developer of course.)

limklad1974

you are correct Metric Tensor, the 15 or so houses in the village already have their own treatment systems, so better than others!!

Would you disagree with Syd then and say that a treatment plant is a non runner? We the people in the community shouldn't be pushing for this to happen, as long as the council would be ok with individual treatment systems for any new houses that are to be built... (whether this is 4 houses or 15 houses...)

limklad1974

Angry bird wrote: »

Sounds like the site and village is not zoned land and if so no social housing applies.

Yes the site and village isn't zoned... presumably if a developer wanted to buy a field next to the village and build multiple houses, he would need to get it zoned, wouldn't he?

Angry bird

limklad1974 wrote: »

Angry bird wrote: »

Sounds like the site and village is not zoned land and if so no social housing applies.

Yes the site and village isn't zoned... presumably if a developer wanted to buy a field next to the village and build multiple houses, he would need to get it zoned, wouldn't he?

No need for zoning. The county development should set out relevant guidance for such village sites like how many houses they will consider etc.

Metric Tensor

A treatment plant for the whole village is a total non runner. It would mean new sewers on public roads, someone selling/giving a site for it, agreement from council, agreement from Irish Water, licensing, public procurement, etc etc. Not to mention many years of everyone's lives!

A treatment plant for the small estate - built and licensed at the time of construction being run by a management company plus or minus eventual taking in charge by LA or Irish Water is something I have seen in other counties. It can work well .... It can also work abysmally. It depends on the people involved and the quality of design and management.

limklad1974

Metric tensor - give you give me any example of a town that went with a treatment plant for a small estate? What kind of cost is the developer looking at?

sydthebeat

limklad1974 wrote: »

Metric tensor - give you give me any example of a town that went with a treatment plant for a small estate? What kind of cost is the developer looking at?

why are you worrying about costs?

if you are not the developer, and you want the village to develop properly, then your only course of action is to contact the county council with a view of putting together a local area plan, in the next county development plan.

Metric Tensor

limklad1974 ...

You seem disproportionately interested in the costs associated with this development including the social housing and sewerage aspects. It strikes me that the only people with that level of interest in the costs of anything are those hoping to profit in some sense from the venture.

If this is the case your best bet is to hire some experts to advise you and where necessary act on your behalf. Definitely a QS considering your interest in costs and then whatever other designers are necessary to feed the QS the information he needs to do up a some rough costings for you.

With regards to the price effluent treatment systems - it's a "how long is a piece of string" question. It would depend on site conditions, housing types, effluent discharge limits, aquifer details, local water bodies, etc., etc. You need to hire an engineer to investigate and advise you.

If you want to find similar examples - hop in the car at the weekend and do a tour of all the neighbouring towns of a similar size to your own. You'll eventually find one with a Celtic Tiger era housing estate whacked on to the side of it. Look up the planning file for that estate and there's a fair chance you'll find it has it's own treatment system. Rinse and repeat until you get what you want. Again - the easy way is ask your engineer and he'll probably tell you about several from the top of his head. It'll save you the diesel but you'll have to pay the engineer for his expertise.