Landlord wants to convert the dining room into Bedroom

bgo1

Likely a common thing these days but would we as housemates have any say in this or may there be council issues with using a 3 bed as a 4 bed for rental?

In the UK there is HMO (House of Multiple Occupation) licensing to ensure there are only a certain number of people in a house designed for that amount of people (..essentially) but of my limited knowledge there is no such stipulations in Eire at present.

At the moment there is no lease covering us in the house but am there over 6 mths for Part IV rights.

Extra room will have big affect in kitchen/fridge storage etc.

Gumbo

The dining room is just another habitable room at the end of the day. It's not a fridge, kitchen appliance storage room.

Can he just convert it to a bedroom, yes he can but he risks upsetting existing house mates and they may leave if they don't like it.

spaceHopper

If the LL lives there then you are a licensee and don't have much in the way of rights or obligations but if you rent the whole house from him then he probably needs your agreement.
Can you give more information?

What's in it for you do you use the dining room, will he reduce the rent by a bit, or not put it up. What's he like to deal with?

listermint

Their was a recent thread in here about some guy and his girlfriend living in the sitting room of a house share. The noise levels etc did not play well with that particular arrangement.

I suggest reading the thread over.

I envisage a similar issue occurring with any new tenant that would be in a dining room area of kitchen and sitting room.

Noise...

seamus

I wonder is there a legal maximum number of people who can live in a property and is there anything the council can do about it?

That is, if I own a three-bed house, is there anything the council can do to stop me moving in 20 of my relatives and having us all share 3 bedrooms?

Related to this thread in terms of whether an owner-landlord can just convert rooms to bedrooms willy-nilly.

the_syco

In the room above the sitting room, are there wooden floors? Because if there is, it'll be very noisy.

The estate I live in was originally built with 3 bedroomed houses and 4 bedroomed houses with either 3 or 4 upstairs bedrooms and seperate living and dining rooms downstairs.

I would say at this stage the majority of houses in the estate have converted the dining room (which is right next to the kitchen) into a bedroom making 4 and 5 bedroomed houses. The place I live is no different with one person living a downstairs bedroom which used to be a dining room.

There is obviously no issue with doing this as so many houses have done it in my estate and to be honest the room actually makes a decent bedroom (room above has wooden floors as I sleep in the room above and never had any complaints from housemates, noise from the kitchen to my room is just as annoying for me anyway as it really travels up).

I can understand why the op would be against it as living with an extra person is a pain though I doubt they can do anything about it, a LL is entitled to renovate his property.

Michael D Not Higgins

The first thing to understand is what kind of tenancy you have, since you have no lease. Are you renting a bedroom or the entire place?

Secondly, why is the landlord doing this? Is he intending to move someone else in to this new bedroom?

Thirdly, the landlord can give you notice under part 4 for a major change to the property if he wants to add this bedroom.

Mrs OBumble

seamus wrote: »

I wonder is there a legal maximum number of people who can live in a property and is there anything the council can do about it?

That is, if I own a three-bed house, is there anything the council can do to stop me moving in 20 of my relatives and having us all share 3 bedrooms?

Related to this thread in terms of whether an owner-landlord can just convert rooms to bedrooms willy-nilly.

I'm sure that there will be a maximum number of occupants before you are legally required to have an approved fire-evacuation plan in place. In the place I come from I think it's 10 or 12, no idea what the number is here - but I'd expect it to be well higher than 4.

P. Breathnach

I doubt if any outside agency would have any objection to such an event.

You have suggested that an extra tenant would have an impact on shared facilities, and in that I think you make a good point. Is the dining room one of the shared spaces?

bgo1

I should be getting a lease pretty soon so it will have the increased rent in it to accommodate now having 4 rooms in house.
Yes its just an add on for LL no benefit to existing tenants.

I just wonder would it affect the consideration of whether a suitable market rent applies now as other houses rented in area would be 3 bed prices and ours will be technically a 3 bed house (as designed) but priced at 4 bed so much over the market rent in the area. Or LL could just say, its a 4 bed now so obviously its charged more than 3 bed which is hard to argue with!.

Appears there are no restrictions in Ireland even if its a commercial house as such, in converting the room.

Obviously I think most people would prefer to live with 2 others (plus occasional partners) rather than 3 giving that the same facilities in the place remain.

bgo1

seamus wrote: »

I wonder is there a legal maximum number of people who can live in a property and is there anything the council can do about it?

That is, if I own a three-bed house, is there anything the council can do to stop me moving in 20 of my relatives and having us all share 3 bedrooms?

Related to this thread in terms of whether an owner-landlord can just convert rooms to bedrooms willy-nilly.

Probably phrased better than me..so next he could convert the attic and rent 5 rooms with no restriction in theory..

April 73

This is an important question OP. Does the landlord live in the house with you or not?

April 73

If the LL does not live in the house I cannot see how he/she can arbitrarily turn the house from a 3 bed to a 4 bed & continue to charge each existing tenant the same rent while they lose communal space.

If that's the case what's to stop the landlord renting the room to a couple with a baby and sticking a cot in the corner of the room? Sounds like some landlords will do anything to make a buck.

What's really important is the history here. Did the house get rented as a house with three beds to three tenants at the same time or did people "rent a room". If it's a "rent a room" set-up it will be more difficult to stop it happening. If the LL lives there too it will also be difficult to stop.

radia

listermint wrote: »

Their was a recent thread in here about some guy and his girlfriend living in the sitting room of a house share. The noise levels etc did not play well with that particular arrangement.

I suggest reading the thread over.

I envisage a similar issue occurring with any new tenant that would be in a dining room area of kitchen and sitting room.

Noise...

This is the thread mentioned: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057525475
Definitely relevant.

bgo1

April 73 wrote: »

This is an important question OP. Does the landlord live in the house with you or not?

No we just rent rooms although I am getting a lease soon for the house and he wants me to fill the rooms when they become empty which im fine with as I can then choose who i live with..I just can't now choose to live with 2 instead of 3 people. I know the risk re. vacancy periods but it is a high demand area.

bgo1

Them 6 pods would easily fit in the dining room - totally goosed now if my landlord is reading this.

In one way he's jumping on the bandwagon at the expense of others prob w/o too much thought, in another this is just human nature and he is gona sweat his asset and have a very nice sunny hol in far away land in 2016.

listermint

bgo1 wrote: »

Them 6 pods would easily fit in the dining room - totally goosed now if my landlord is reading this.

In one way he's jumping on the bandwagon at the expense of others prob w/o too much thought, in another this is just human nature and he is gona sweat his asset and have a very nice sunny hol in far away land in 2016.

Not sure what use an extra couple of Hundred Euro is for the sake of annoying 3 solid paying tenants.

But each to their own.

These types of plans only annoy existing tenants and make the dwelling unpleasant even the financial benefit cant be worth the headaches.

the_syco

bgo1 wrote: »

No we just rent rooms although I am getting a lease soon for the house and he wants me to fill the rooms when they become empty which im fine with as I can then choose who i live with..I just can't now choose to live with 2 instead of 3 people. I know the risk re. vacancy periods but it is a high demand area.

The kitchen will be the new "communal area", and thus there'll always be people either cooking, eating, or watching TV.

Dial Hard

the_syco wrote: »

The kitchen will be the new "communal area", and thus there'll always be people either cooking, eating, or watching TV.

Not that I agree with what the landlord is doing, but I get the impression that the room he's planning to convert is a separate dining room altogether, not the sitting room (or part of it).

Sh1tbag OToole

listermint wrote: »

Not sure what use an extra couple of Hundred Euro is for the sake of annoying 3 solid paying tenants.

But each to their own.

These types of plans only annoy existing tenants and make the dwelling unpleasant even the financial benefit cant be worth the headaches.

Very little these boys won't do for a few bob particularly not if they've convinced themselves the 3 solid paying tenants can't afford to move

rawn

In the last house I lived in the dining room was converted into a bedroom for a couple. It was a nightmare. The dining room joined onto both the kitchen and the sitting room so essentially they took over all downstairs as the doors were swinging open all the time. If we had people over they would make them leave at 11 so they could sleep, but they would have people over til all hours when it suited them. I think it gives the downstairs bedroom too much "power", it certainly made things unpleasant for us, even though we were all friends beforehand.

While the overall rent may increase a bit your rents should decrease as the rent shouldn't really be increased by the full cost of the extra room.

For example the houses in my estate rent for only a little more overall if they have 4 occupants rather than 3 but individuality the people pay a little less if they share with 3 others rather than 2.

Your bills will also be divided by 4 rather than 3 so fixed things like Internet and tv will reduce.

To be honest I'd nearly offer the LL more money from each of you rather than rent an extra room as an extra person makes a big difference in a house.

Gumbo

the_syco wrote: »

The kitchen will be the new "communal area", and thus there'll always be people either cooking, eating, or watching TV.

What about the sitting room?

seamus

bgo1 wrote: »

Probably phrased better than me..so next he could convert the attic and rent 5 rooms with no restriction in theory..

Attic conversion is a much trickier prospect. You have to make extensive fire safety modifications in order to convert another floor into a living space.

Victor

You will have less space (no more dining room) and the space you have (kitchen, living room, bathroom) will be shared with another person. I would object to any rent increase and would demand a rent reduction.

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Thirdly, the landlord can give you notice under part 4 for a major change to the property if he wants to add this bedroom.

Removing a dining table and replacing it with a bed is not 'major work'.

April 73

I would be resisting this happening at all. The new "bedroom" is going to have noise coming from the kitchen & sitting room. You'll end up with someone complaining about noise both morning & night.
You'll lose communal space - important when sharing. No-one wants to get stuck in their bedroom all the time. An extra person getting showered in the bathroom in the morning.
You'll be paying the same rent.
Seriously, the only person winning is the LL. It's going to muck up your living arrangements.

spaceHopper

If you become the guy who has to find people the you will be the one sorting out problems and rows about the loss of space and noise. Tell the LL there is nothing in this for you you will only be happy to take care of the house if it's a 3 bed if he wants to make it a 4 bed then its his responsibility

the_syco

seamus wrote: »

Attic conversion is a much trickier prospect. You have to make extensive fire safety modifications in order to convert another floor into a living space.

Only if you list it as a living space when selling the house. Have seen a load of houses near me being sold as four beds, with the 5th listed as "storage space" that was "storing a bed"...

Gumbo

the_syco wrote: »

Only if you list it as a living space when selling the house. Have seen a load of houses near me being sold as four beds, with the 5th listed as "storage space" that was "storing a bed"...

Not necessarily. The Building Regulations do not stipulate a difference between storage and bedroom. In fact, from a storage point of view, it's classed as a different use and the structural requirements and loading capacities for structural members are more onorous to meet than the bedroom requirements.

As long as there is a permanent stair case it's a accessible room and you have just converted your house from a 2 stores dwelling to a 3 stores dwelling and the requirements under TGD Part B (Fire Safety) come into play.

Kceire
Building Control Officier

kceire

kceire wrote: »

Not necessarily. The Building Regulations do not stipulate a difference between storage and bedroom. In fact, from a storage point of view, it's classed as a different use and the structural requirements and loading capacities for structural members are more onorous to meet than the bedroom requirements.

As long as there is a permanent stair case it's a accessible room and you have just converted your house from a 2 stores dwelling to a 3 stores dwelling and the requirements under TGD Part B (Fire Safety) come into play.

Kceire
Building Control Officier

Out of interest when you say permanent stairs does that include folding attic stairs?

Gumbo

Meadow Nice Hazelnut wrote: »

Out of interest when you say permanent stairs does that include folding attic stairs?

No. Folding attic stairs would not constitute permanent access to the loft. BUT, if you had a folding attic stairs to a lift that was fully insulated, fully plumbed with rads, power points etc, then an argument could be made to force you put a suitable means of escape from that room and that would involve some sort of permanent stair case and the associated fire safety measures.

athtrasna

Mod note Attic conversion talk is off topic. Can we get back to the OP's issue if you have more to add to the thread please.

JupiterKid

I would ask the LL for a reduction in rent. You are losing communal space and the extra tenant in the house will create extra demands on shared facilities like the kitchen, bathroom etc. Also you may not be able to entertain in the living room at night as the tenant in the adjacent dining room will want a quiet night's sleep.

Sounds like bare faced greed on the part of the landlord.

JupiterKid

JupiterKid wrote: »

Also you may not be able to entertain in the living room at night as the tenant in the adjacent dining room will want a quiet night's sleep.

There are a lot of issues I agree and I wouldn't want to be living with an extra person but the above I wouldn't worry about. The bedroom above the living room suffers more from noise than the one next too it. Remember downstairs rooms are separated by solid concrete block walls while the upstairs bedroom is just separated by some plasterboard and timber in an awful lot of houses.