Realistic Leaf Range

Firblog

Hi guy,
Am kicking the tyres of a new leaf this last 2 months or so, was fairly comfortable with the range limit until last night.
I spoke to a guy who has a 142 leaf who uses it to drive to work everyday; he says that the realistic range of his leaf is 50/55 miles going from 80% charge down to 20%, driving @ 50 mph.

I'd appreciate if ppl would post what mileage they get on the 20% - 80% battery charge and what speeds you drive at.

cros13

Those numbers are definitely misleading.
When the dash indicates 20% you probably have a lot more than that in the battery. In fact in one case, when the dash indicated 6%, I measured the actual state of charge at 22% and drove another 25km to my destination.
Some drivers are confused about how to care for the battery and set the limit of the charge to 80% (which can prevent the battery management system from figuring out the state of the battery).
As you use the car you'll get better at regen braking etc and more adept at estimating how much battery you'll use on a given journey.

Realistically a 141-152 Leaf (one of my EVs is a 141 SVE) gets between 110km and 145km depending on ambient temperature and driving speed.
The 161 we put down a deposit on yesterday should get 150-190km for the same duty cycles.

ei9go

EPA in the USA say 84 miles total range for the 24 kw Leaf.

cros13

ei9go wrote: »

EPA in the USA say 84 miles total range for the 24 kw Leaf.

EPA's rang estimates are reasonable for the average driver. I tend to do slightly better than the EPA range.

EPA range for the 30kWh is 107 mi or 172.2km.

I drove a total of 95 Kms yesterday in windy and very wet conditions and had 6 % lest at the fast charger driving at 100-110 Kph.

Very wet roads create drag and include wind, this has a noticeable effect, In calm weather dry roads I would get about 130 Kms 100-110 Kph.

Keep tyre pressures up around 35 psi. And if getting new tyres at some point don't get cheap crap, the leaf needs good quality low rolling resistance tyres.

So I would say in winter after 100 Kms in the standard 24 kwh be near a charge point at normal speeds 100-110 Kph, this is continuous speeds no traffic.

The 30 Kwh will have a range of 140-170 Kms. It's the one to get and it charges faster from the fast chargers too !

If you want to hold on just 2 years then the 200-240 mile or 320-385 Km leaf will be available but the 60 kwh battery will most likely be optional and the 24 Kwh standard and maybe a 40 kwh option, I can't see the 60 kwh leaf costing less than 35K unless Nissan have a trick up their sleeves.

Firblog

ei9go wrote: »

EPA in the USA say 84 miles total range for the 24 kw Leaf.

Is that 84 miles using 100% of battery?
Then going from 80% - 20% would be 50.4 Miles?

Crap :mad:

Firblog

Firblog wrote: »

Is that 84 miles using 100% of battery?
Then going from 80% - 20% would be 50.4 Miles?

Crap :mad:

why 80% ?

I've got 140 Kms with a bit to spare in Summer at 80 odd kph.

But you got to go by the winter range which is at my driving style about 100 kms winter and 130 Summer max, or at least by the time you should be plugged in. I drive 100-110 kph beofore I got the work charge point and I don't baby the throttle and I don't drive in Eco which completely destroys the EV experience and it doesn't save range imo. Now I drive at 100-120 to work and back with some 130 kph stints.

Top up when you get the opportunity it's not about seeing how much you can get on a charge, the 6.6 Kw charger gets about 60-70 Kms per 2 hrs V 4 hrs for the standard 3.3 Kw charger. I am really glad I got the 6.6 Kw.

pwurple

Firblog wrote: »

Is that 84 miles using 100% of battery?
Then going from 80% - 20% would be 50.4 Miles?

Crap :mad:

What range do you estimate you will need?

I checked my google history for my locations stats over a year. Only once in the whole year of driving had I done a work drive outside the range of a leaf, so we went for it.

Turns out it is so much fun to drive, we actually take it on much longer journeys than we anticipated because it is more fun than a diesel. Did the ring of Kerry in it, great craic. Found chargers in unusual places (on the front wall of the priests house in sneem!) and people were popping out have a chat and a gawk at the car.

Firblog

Deleted User wrote: »

why 80% ?

Well I've been reading on here the advice that the time it takes between 80% and 100% that it's not worth it. Also that for better battery maintenance you shouldn't go below 20% too often, or have I taken things up wrong?

Firblog

Firblog wrote: »

Well I've been reading on here the advice that the time it takes between 80% and 100% that it's not worth it. Also that for better battery maintenance you shouldn't go below 20% too often, or have I taken things up wrong?

Long term for max life yes, keep between 80-30 % preferably. it won;t make a difference probably over 3-5 years but for long term it will.

However I will say when and if you need all the range on a longer trip then use it and don't worry about it but when you get the opportunity to top up then take it.

cros13

Firblog wrote: »

Well I've been reading on here the advice that the time it takes between 80% and 100% that it's not worth it.

We're only talking about rapid charging, not charging at home. You'll leave your home every day with 100%.

In fact for home charging you should charge to 100% at least once a week so that the battery management system can keep a eye on the real state of the pack.

Firblog wrote: »

Also that for better battery maintenance you shouldn't go below 20% too often

Firstly 20% indicated is not 20% state of charge, the car will lie to you about charge status to manipulate your behaviour. Just use the car as needed and don't worry about it.

I have lost around 1% capacity in 2 years on an mk1.5 (132-152) battery. I'm an R&D engineer for a company that also designs and builds its own battery management systems for many of our products. It's better to trust the BMS as Nissan has programmed it than come up with your own amateur plans for charging.

The only guide I would give is that if you are leaving for a three week holiday and your car will be sitting there, ideally leave your car below 80%.

Deleted User wrote: »

Long term for max life yes, keep between 80-30 % preferably. it won;t make a difference probably over 3-5 years but for long term it will

I dispute that it will make much difference in the long term. The major factors will be aging and high temperature related events. There's little to no proof that charging only to 80% indicated helps longevity in any meaningful way with the mk 1.5+ batteries.

The charge to 80% option was largely put in there by Nissan for the same reason they offer the 5W €300 solar panel that costs more in range through its weight than it makes in power. Placebo.

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

I dispute that it will make much difference in the long term. The major factors will be aging and high temperature related events. There's little to no proof that charging only to 80% indicated helps longevity in any meaningful way with the mk 1.5+ batteries.

The charge to 80% option was largely put in there by Nissan for the same reason they offer the 5W €300 solar panel that costs more in range through its weight than it makes in power. Placebo.

The evidence is absolutely clear on this subject. It's been researched and documented for years. However as cycle life improves it becomes less of an issue and particularly on larger batteries but on a leaf sized battery it's more important especially if you cycle it a lot and intend to keep it for many years.

heliguyheliguy

There is some evidence to suggest that most of the damage happens at high temps and full charge, this is when the damaging parasitic reactions (lithium plating) occur. In Ireland we do not need to worry about high temperatures as we simply don't get them. Our only concern is long periods at high charge (but remember not that big an issue without the high temp) this should not be an issue in regular use but maybe if your not using the car for a long period don't leave it at 100% charge.

The 80 20 charging is taken care of by the bms and not something a driver needs to concern themselves with. i.e. when your battery says it is 100% charged it is not! there is more capacity but Nissan won't allow access to that capacity in an effort to protect the longevity of the pack, similarity for the bottom end of the charge.

Here read this, but there are other sources and much the same has been observed for various Lithium chemistries.

Even Nasa observed the same when they reduced the charge % top and bottom.

The Leaf does allow very high and low soc's

http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Battery_Capacity_Loss

Probably more damaging are those who don't use the timer and do small mileage and every time they do a school run or shop they come back home and plug in and the battery sits between 80-100% most of the time.

I would say that this would matter less on the current leaf battery only because of the improvements to the battery itself may actually mitigate the effects of charging to 100% daily, but keeping the car I would do everything possible to maximise the amount of charges it will keep 100% charge.

What does all this matter anyway ? it doesn't if you intend to flog the car after 3 years but if someone wants to keep it many years then they should do everything to maximise the amount of full charges the battery holds for as long as possible before the capacity reduces which is a slow enough process and it maters if you will want to travel for the full range of the car.

If you travel 40 miles a day max then you won't notice capacity fade anyway for many years until you want to go on a very long run.

The tesla 90 Kwh , even after it reaches 70% capacity it will still have about 180 miles range and so this 30% loss may not matter much to many people and it's a battery that will probably only see a 80% cycle a couple of times a year so in this case the battery has the potential to last the life of the car and beyond. With a small leaf battery it's under a lot more stress every day.

samih

I'm planning to keep the leaf for many years and hopefully by the time the current battery capacity has noticeably diminished there will be improved battery pack available. Hopefully around 40 kWh.

In the meantime I just use the car as normal but avoiding leaving the car at "100%" for longer than absolutely necessary.

samih

samih wrote: »

I'm planning to keep the leaf for many years and hopefully by the time the current battery capacity has noticeably diminished there will be improved battery pack available. Hopefully around 40 kWh.

In the meantime I just use the car as normal but avoiding leaving the car at "100%" for longer than absolutely necessary.

When I'm not using it I just leave it around 40-50%.

I doubt Nissan will offer an upgraded battery and I doubt Nissan Ireland will replace batteries anyway unless they reach 70%.

Currently, as it stands now, Nissan Ireland wont replace your battery with a new one, there is no battery replacement program like in the U.K or U.S.

samih

Deleted User wrote: »

When I'm not using it I just leave it around 40-50%.

I doubt Nissan will offer an upgraded battery and I doubt Nissan Ireland will replace batteries anyway unless they reach 70%.

Currently, as it stands now, Nissan Ireland wont replace your battery with a new one, there is no battery replacement program like in the U.K or U.S.

A trip to North or across the Irish sea won't add that much extra cost.

Edit: Nissan most likely won't continue to manufacture obsolete cell types in the future. As the cells suffer from calendar based capacity loss they can't build 10 years worth of old style cells either. And as EU mandates at least 10 years parts availability for vehicles they most likely will offer a battery pack based on the next generation cells sometime in the future. Based on information I read about the future 3P 60 kWh pack for next leaf, it will be possible to construct a 2P battery that is physically smaller and the same voltage as the current 24/30 kWh packs. That kind of pack will most likely be offered as a lower cost alternative on the next Leaf. And as the pack contains BMS it should be rather easy to create one for the current model too without the car actually need to even know that something has changed with the battery.

MK I leaf owners will need a new battery far sooner than Mk 1.5 owners, I can see the current leaf battery last beyond 10 years with average mileage especially since the MK 1.5 2013 Leaf taxi in the U.K passed 100,000 miles with just 10% loss with about 1700 fast charges and 5,000 and something L2. It might be the case that it would have lost less with far less fast charges, time will tell.

When it becomes unusable though is another matter entirely, it maybe the case that the current leaf can retire as the second car in 10 years. it might be the case that when the battery reaches 70% it will still be usable.

cros13

When Mk1 batteries have needed replacement so far they have fitted the latest production batteries with a special adapter.

Fitting the newer battery chemistry/ Pack to the MK I was never the issue, in Ireland it's not possible to get a new battery because Nissan Ireland do not want anything to do with battery replacement because they don't want to buy the batteries in the first place and not be able to sell the used cells and they don't want to risk having to pay the cost of disposal if they can't sell them.

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

Fitting the newer battery chemistry/ Pack to the MK I was never the issue, in Ireland it's not possible to get a new battery because Nissan Ireland do not want anything to do with battery replacement because they don't want to buy the batteries in the first place and not be able to sell the used cells and they don't want to risk having to pay the cost of disposal if they can't sell them.

I'm not aware of any case in Ireland where the battery needed replacement.

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

I'm not aware of any case in Ireland where the battery needed replacement.

No, what I'm saying is that outside of warranty Nissan Ireland do not and will not replace the battery once it goes below 70% capacity. They may change their minds eventually but as it stands now, they won't.

BoatMad

I dispute that it will make much difference in the long term. The major factors will be aging and high temperature related events. There's little to no proof that charging only to 80% indicated helps longevity in any meaningful way with the mk 1.5+ batteries.

The charge to 80% option was largely put in there by Nissan for the same reason they offer the 5W €300 solar panel that costs more in range through its weight than it makes in power. Placebo.

absolutly +1

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Fitting the newer battery chemistry/ Pack to the MK I was never the issue, in Ireland it's not possible to get a new battery because Nissan Ireland do not want anything to do with battery replacement because they don't want to buy the batteries in the first place and not be able to sell the used cells and they don't want to risk having to pay the cost of disposal if they can't sell them.

given that Nissan Ireland is actually just a division of Nissan UK, I suspect the reason is purely policy driven and could change at any time, talking to my dealer , they are fully equipped to do battery swaps. But they arnt allowed to buy batteries

I suspect nissan will not allow battery upgrades however, too many subtle changes in software and systems. you'll just get like for like, and anyway Nissan dont want you to create an everlasting car!