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Turkish F-16s shoot down Russian plane near Syrian border

Comments

  • #2
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Moscow says it was shot down by ground fire & didn't cross into Turkey, which I doubt.

    Pilots bailed out


  • #3
    whiskeyman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,564 ✭✭✭✭whiskeyman


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    Moscow says it was shot down by ground fire & didn't cross into Turkey, which I doubt.

    Pilots bailed out

    Don't get why Moscow saying ground fire if Turkey saying they shot it? :confused:

    Either way, I can't see this turning out well:(


  • #4
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    whiskeyman wrote: »
    Don't get why Moscow saying ground fire if Turkey saying they shot it? :confused:

    Either way, I can't see this turning out well:(

    I imagine they don't like the idea of their planes falling foul of an AMRAAM so easily.

    Might be politically preferable to say it was a lucky shot from the ground... Or to paint the rebels as having SAM capabilities that they don't actually possess.


  • #5
    MuffinsDa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,231 ✭✭✭MuffinsDa


    Here's something interesting:

    1 "The Turkish military said it scrambled two F-16 fighter jets after a plane penetrated Turkish airspace in the province of Hatay at 9.20am on Tuesday morning, warning it to leave 10 times in five minutes before it was shot down.
    It was unclear if the plane was shot down by the fighter jets or by ground-based defence systems." http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/24/turkey-shoots-down-jet-near-border-with-syria

    2. Turkish government publishes radar print of downed jet (see attached)

    If the radar print is genuine, the question is: would a Su-24 at 6000m take over 5 minutes to traverse that protruding bit of Turkey in the radar print that it allegedly violated?

    Also, it looks like they scrambled 2 F-16 but it's not clear whether they brought it down or was it ground fire?


  • #6
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    I looked at google maps to measure that protrusion of Turkish territory that the image indicates the SU-24 traversed.... its 2.6kms wide.

    At full speed, passable in a few seconds....
    Hardly seems worth engaging over.

    that is of course if the image is real.

    But I doubt it was ground fire that brought the plane down... Russian helicopters operate with impunity, bombing where they please and are not touched.
    If those big fat targets operate without being scratched, jet is probably fine.


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  • #7
    MuffinsDa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,231 ✭✭✭MuffinsDa


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »

    But I doubt it was ground fire that brought the plane down... Russian helicopters operate with impunity, bombing where they please and are not touched.
    If those big fat targets operate without being scratched, jet is probably fine.

    I think the Helicopters operate in rebel areas. The rebels don't have any SAM capability yet. But I'm sure Turks have serious SAMs.


  • #8
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    MuffinsDa wrote: »
    But I'm sure Turks have serious SAMs.

    Actually, not really... this listing seems pretty archaic.

    But it's Russia claiming a SAM hit from inside Syria, so wouldn't be turkish army anyway.
    .... Turkey are claiming the air-to-air hit


  • #9
    MuffinsDa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,231 ✭✭✭MuffinsDa


    There we are!!! I did have a point after all... Holy sh1t this will be serious if that's the case, Russia won't sit and watch.

    From Guardian's live reporting on this:
    4m ago
    11:13
    Craig Murray, a former British diplomat turned anti-war campaigner, says Turkey’s actions are unjustified and that the incident highlights the danger of the UK getting involved in the bombing campaign over Syria. Writing on his blog, Murray says:

    I calculate that each “incursion” over Turkish territory would have lasted about 10 seconds, assuming the plane was flying slowly at 600mph. That Turkey shot down the plane for this is madness, and absolutely indefensible. It is fairly obvious from the track that the plane was operating against Turkish sponsored Turkmen rebels inside Syria, and that is why the Turks shot it down.

    But the inescapable conclusion is that the true madness would be for the UK to get involved in Syria and make a complex and volatile situation still worse, and risk being dragged into wider conflict."

    Also the presence of various footage of planes coming down and pilots parachuting to me points at it being shot from the ground and well-planned. If it was shot by F-16s over that remote part of Syria how likely it would be that a)someone was in the area and b) had a camera / phone ready to go within the few seconds it took the plane to drop from the sky. It is possible though, just slightly unlikely.


  • #10
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Maybe I'm mistaking, but are there not different groups of rebels. Russia seems to bombing them all in support of the previous govt. Previously some rebels were being supported by the West. With ISIS gaining ground, I'm not even sure what the other countries positions are on the different groups now. Is it that Russia want to put the old Govt back. The West doesn't know what to do.


  • #11
    questionmark?
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭questionmark?


    beauf wrote: »
    Maybe I'm mistaking, but are there not different groups of rebels. Russia seems to bombing them all in support of the previous govt. Previously some rebels were being supported by the West. With ISIS gaining ground, I'm not even sure what the other countries positions are on the different groups now. Is it that Russia want to put the old Govt back. The West doesn't know what to do.

    Previous government? You mean current government surely?


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  • #12
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    questionmark? wrote: »
    Previous government? You mean current government surely?

    My bad. Yes Shirley.


  • #13
    Tenger
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 10,005 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    beauf wrote: »
    Maybe I'm mistaking, but are there not different groups of rebels. Russia seems to bombing them all in support of the previous govt. Previously some rebels were being supported by the West. With ISIS gaining ground, I'm not even sure what the other countries positions are on the different groups now. Is it that Russia want to put the old Govt back. The West doesn't know what to do.
    Well ISIS are mainly located in the East of Syria, with anti-Assad Free Syrian rebels in the North. Russia are giving support to the Assad Govt while the Western nations are concentrating their strikes against ISIS. Remember the West may want to remove Assad but the Russia's have stated they want to keep Assad in power. Looks like Russian airforces was striking at FSA areas.


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