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Traffic offence- appeal?

  • 23-11-2015 9:44am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 541 ✭✭✭


    Hi guys

    I got a fine in the post last week for a traffic offence, failing to follow the direction of the road. Basically I came off a roundabout to a 2-lane road, which I then realised had 1 left turn only filter lane, and 1 lane going straight. I checked my mirrors and carefully indicated out of the filter lane to continue straight ahead. I was then pulled over for this, accused of trying to undertake the (non-existent) traffic.

    Is this really a fine-able offence? Is there any point in appealing?


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,004 ✭✭✭ironclaw


    369417.jpg

    Presume you did something like that?

    If you had fully cleared the roundabout, and didn't cut anyone off, and if you had a DVR of said incident (Or the Gardai had footage) then I'd fight it. Otherwise, I'd just take it on the chin.

    A Garda isn't going to waste their time doing someone for the fun of it. You probably did it on or mid way off the roundabout. Or you crossed a continuous line at the filter. You'd need an exact diagram to offer any advice.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭esforum


    mejulie805 wrote: »
    Hi guys
    Is this really a fine-able offence?

    That depends, was it printed out telling you the offence and the section of law you broke or was it hand written in crayon?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 541 ✭✭✭mejulie805


    esforum wrote: »
    That depends, was it printed out telling you the offence and the section of law you broke or was it hand written in crayon?

    Just because its written down doesnt mean its right! It said 'failure to travel in the direction designated by the road', but it happens all the time!

    No I didn't cut through the lane from the roundabout; I was in the left lane until the arrows on the ground indicated left only, then slowly merged into the right lane with ample indication and care!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭millington


    mejulie805 wrote: »
    Just because its written down doesnt mean its right! It said 'failure to travel in the direction designated by the road', but it happens all the time!

    No I didn't cut through the lane from the roundabout; I was in the left lane until the arrows on the ground indicated left only, then slowly merged into the right lane with ample indication and care!

    This often happens me on roads I don't know, never been stopped for it but must have been a prick of a Gard!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 541 ✭✭✭mejulie805


    He was! Didn't even hand me back my licence just threw it in the window. When I asked would I get a fine he said "I'll think about it", so I thought he decided against it! I was down the country following google maps. Bloody D reg car, didn't have a stick of bother with the DL! ;)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Depends on the road markings, go back and check it out.

    If the arrow said left turn only, and then you merged into the right-hand lane before you reached the next junction, then I don't see how you can be accused of failing to follow the arrows. However, if there was a solid white line between the lanes or you switched into the right-hand lane after passing the stop line, then he probably has you bang to rights.

    Is there also the possibility that the previous roundabout had a "Left turn only" marking that you missed when you went straight?

    Can you post a google maps link to the junction? That would be useful...


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    OP, was there a queue of traffic in the right lane of the roundabout going straight ahead and you took the left lane, entered the filter and then moved out into the right lane to skip the queue?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 541 ✭✭✭mejulie805


    This is where I changed lanes, still quite a bit back from the turn, but it was past the sign that explained the lanes. There was no traffic in the other lane so it couldn't look like I was skipping! If I stayed in the lane and went forward the description on the ticket would make sense, but I really did just change lanes.
    I can't see a way to appeal it and am not going to get a solicitor for €60, so I might just give in. It's the whole point!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,499 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    There are road markings indicating left turn only immediately after the roundabout. Did you not see these?

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.6611838,-8.6336359,3a,75y,231.83h,80.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sa42izmZyhmzcXW46JdDA8g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

    However, it does seem a bit daft that the road markings as you enter the roundabout indicate that you can use the left lane for both left and straight on, when the left lane becomes left-turn only immediately as you exit it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,004 ✭✭✭ironclaw


    Interesting one this. Granted the left lane is for turning left only, however, its a dashed middle line, meaning you can change lanes as you please. Unlike say a solid and dashed line together meaning you can only enter the left lane, not exit it. My understanding of such lanes is the 'Left Turn only' only apples at the junction, meaning if you reach the junction in that lane, you must turn left. However in lieu of any solid lines, or undertaking 'straight on' traffic, I don't see any issue.

    The question is at what point does 'Left Turn' mean you cannot exit the lane, my take on this is that its at the solid lane dividing line at the junction. Were you in this area?

    Edit Did not see this lad waving at you? :)https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.6608358,-8.6341496,3a,75y,188.71h,69.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVO9fIy8tkovASoixw_B7Ow!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    mejulie805 wrote: »
    This is where I changed lanes, still quite a bit back from the turn

    If you drove to that point in the left lane, you already ignored a left-only marking and went straight through this junction.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,852 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    A lot of folk go right off that Shannon Bridge roundabout in the left hand lane to skip traffic.

    It's both stupid and dangerous imho.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    If you drove to that point in the left lane, you already ignored a left-only marking and went straight through this junction.
    This. If you drove in the left-hand lane from the roundabout to the point that you linked to above OP, then you have no real basis for appeal.
    Even if the road was completely empty you in effect ignored the road markings.

    That one does seem a bit daft - that first junction should have a kerb or bollards to force you to go left, but they may have left it clear to facilitate cyclists and emergency services.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 541 ✭✭✭mejulie805


    Thanks all. Might just shut up and cough up ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭savagethegoat


    I think so. I think the offence was at the previous left turn just before the crossing. I used to hate coming over the bridge in the correct lane only to be undertaken by queue jumpers on the roundabout who then forced there way into the queue ahead of me. The way the road is marked now is obviously because of people doing that. I don't go that way anymore thank Dog


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,686 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    If you drove to that point in the left lane, you already ignored a left-only marking and went straight through this junction.

    Thats the main point and I could have no issue with the garda in this case.
    There is also a clear risk of causing an accident at that mid junction as a car coming out of that junction would be entitled to believe you were turning left and not going to interfere with them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭esforum


    If you drove to that point in the left lane, you already ignored a left-only marking and went straight through this junction.

    Was thinking the same. when I follow the maps link it brings me way down from the roundabout and past a junction so the OP would have already gone straight in a left turn only lane.

    Ok so, I can see on google streetview that you were correct to enter the roudabout in the left lane, I can also see that you exited the roundabout in the correct lane.

    Therefore while the markings and road layout seem a little daft in my opinion as I cant really see any reason to have that lane left only, you continued straight in a lane that was marked left turn only and by the time you were stopped had already committed the offence.

    You should have turned left at the man waving his arms about beside River hair studio. Where you were stopped must be the guts of a few hundred metres further along.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,441 ✭✭✭ofcork


    But if a person was going all the way to the lights to turn left they would be right to be in that lane.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,919 ✭✭✭MojoMaker


    ^^ This is the problem. Very little reasonable ability to interpret basic road markers among the Irish driving population.

    Someone wishing to turn left at the second junction with the traffic lights would have had to proceed off the roundabout into the straight ahead lane, correctly passing the first left-turn junction in the correct (right-hand) lane and then moved into the left-turn-only lane between the first and second junctions.

    Where is the mystery?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,004 ✭✭✭ironclaw


    MojoMaker wrote: »
    ^^ This is the problem. Very little reasonable ability to interpret basic road markers among the Irish driving population.

    Someone wishing to turn left at the second junction with the traffic lights would have had to proceed off the roundabout into the straight ahead lane, correctly passing the first left-turn junction in the correct (right-hand) lane and then moved into the left-turn-only lane between the first and second junctions.

    Where is the mystery?

    Playing a shade of devils advocate...

    If there were five left turns, and you passed four of them and then turned left, you have still turned left and obeyed the road markings as per the layout in this instance. There is no law that states you must take the first left turn, unless marked to the contrary or a barrier / hatched area exists. Of course you could argue in this instance that the first left turn is a junction, and you must turn left at the first junction you meet if you are in the left lane off the roundabout, then again, say you are turning left up ahead, are you not entitled to be in this lane to take that left turn from the start? You are following the markings for traffic flow, you have intentions to turn left.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1964/si/294/made/en/print#zzsi294y1964a17 under the 'Traffic lane markings' section, you would need to define which marking was referring to which junction.

    Furthermore, I'd strongly argue that given the dashed center line, your entitled to change lanes. Undertaking traffic or being a knob, no. But I'm aware of no law that states when you enter a lane that you must remain in it except for say:

    RR-Road5.PNG

    Genuine mistakes do occur and at no point have I ever seen informed of statues forbidding the free movement between lanes with dashed center markings.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭savagethegoat


    the markings should block off the straight ahead option if you have to turn left. That seems obvious


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭esforum


    ironclaw wrote: »
    If there were five left turns, and you passed four of them and then turned left, you have still turned left and obeyed the road markings as per the layout in this instance. There is no law that states you must take the first left turn, unless marked to the contrary or a barrier / hatched area exists.

    Theres more than one. First off your not reliant on 'law' or act / statute theres also byelaws
    Section 88 (G), Road traffic Act 1961 allows the Garda commissioner to make byelaws for traffic enforcement

    Section 89 (2)(A),(B) and (C), Road traffic Act 1961. Grants other powers to the Comissioner

    Section 60, Road traffic Act 1968 Grants powers to the Transport minister to make byelaws for traffic control

    Section 62, Road traffic Act 1968 allows county councils to make byelaws for the flow of traffic.


    The road markings being nothing more than an arrow on the ground is covered and legal as per
    Section 95, Road traffic Act 1961

    Section 13, Road traffic (Signs) regulations 1997 (note this is a regulation not an act)

    Section 22, Road traffic (Traffic and parking regulations) 1997 refers to signs which most would consider the sign on a lamp post however as per above, an arrow painted on the ground is a sign.

    These were amended and update by the Road traffic Act 2012 and Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2012 however the amendments due not abolish or replace what I have quoted.
    ironclaw wrote: »
    Furthermore, I'd strongly argue that given the dashed center line, your entitled to change lanes. Undertaking traffic or being a knob, no. But I'm aware of no law that states when you enter a lane that you must remain in it

    Thats not really an issue here though is it? You need to change lanes BEFORE the junction. Theres a whole new list of statutes and regulations about changing lanes at junctions. The OP drove straight, she didnt change lanes at any stage.
    ironclaw wrote: »
    Genuine mistakes do occur

    They do indeed but this doesnt appear to have been an 'oops, **** Im in the wrong lane' event. The OP drove straight without any intention of changing lanes nor accepting that she was wrong even after getting the ticket.
    ironclaw wrote: »
    at no point have I ever seen informed of statues forbidding the free movement between lanes with dashed center markings.

    I guarantee that during your driving lessons (if you took any official ones) the various regulations and Act governing how you can drive was indeed explained to you. If you were self tought or by family member, etc then lucky for you that your lack of knowledge was not caught by the tester during your test.

    (unless of course the above is not a typo and you are actually expecting giant marble statues to be placed on roads to where such signs exist ;))


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