The end of non drafting ?

bryangiggsy

http://www.evanscycles.com/coffeestop/news/aero-no-no-how-the-itu-is-changing-the-game/

tunney

In a nutshell no. It could be the end of triathlon in Ireland though.

iAcesHigh

I'm a big fan of non-drafting, probably because I was never good at drafting and group cycling, but nevertheless that, is a random Joe really more likely to watch a race with legal drafting on the bike course than non-drafting one? Because, with the second one being saving the money on organization since it's "lower maintenance", I presume prime reason for this decision came in because they want to make triathlon (more) fan/TV/spectator-friendly. Not that long ago I did ask on this forum do you know how we could get triathlon to be a spectator sport and nobody mentioned drafting (HERE).

In general, I don't mind any changes if they really bring something. If it brings more fans, lower prices for events (due to lower maintenance that would make a sense) or more races in general since it's going to be a bit easier to organize one - great. I'll do my part and start doing some group trainings. But, if it's just so they would force people to buy new equipment (bikes, helmets etc.) or they use the "extra cash" to put in their pocket then I think this could actually be a bad thing.

Also, 2 things to note. Newbies will now have even more ways to hurt themselves since most, as is the problem with swimming, won't be so good at drafting as they would imagine (they'll all know that drafting is helping them but most probably won't really practice it before) and second one - I don't see this happening in longer distances (HIM and IM), especially not for other organizations which means bad things for triathletes in general because they'll need non-aero bikes/equipment for local and smaller races and full aero ones for longer/HIM/IM races...

king size mars bar

Not a fan of drafting either and to be honest don't fancy it at all in races, I think it could well put people off taking up duathlon or triathlon.

68 lost souls

tunney wrote: »

In a nutshell no. It could be the end of triathlon in Ireland though.

Please expand? Interested in seeing the reason for this.

As far as I am aware it is still just for Super Series type races not agers? Or am I reading it wrong, that is what I took from te TI training day and the BTU talk this weekend

RacoonQueen

Only national champs were draft legal in 2015...draft legal racing in Ireland would mean every race would need fully closed roads (IMO) - no chance of that happening.

bryangiggsy

RacoonQueen wrote:

Only national champs were draft legal in 2015...draft legal racing in Ireland would mean every race would need fully closed roads (IMO) - no chance of that happening.

Why ..? Bike races don't have fully closed roads?

68 lost souls

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Why ..? Bike races don't have fully closed roads?

In most places I would agree however many councils would insist on it. It would potentially have a much larger impact on Specific areas of the country which have history of issues around this.

RacoonQueen

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Why ..? Bike races don't have fully closed roads?

It's not a bike race, it's a triathlon..in bike races you don't have waves, people of different swim ability coming out of the water at different times...you'd expect, in cycling for people to have OK bike handling skills...draft legal racing on open roads would be carnage, especially when the tractor decides it needs to use the road and a group of 20 cyclists come up behind it suddenly...

CianTri

Still a minority of draft legal racing in 2016 and only super series for those who have qualified. It supplies much more exciting racing not only for those involved but also for those watching. If you don't like it you have plenty of non drafting options

mirrormatrix

I like the idea. Would love to race a draft legal event. Cuts out all the BS; a significant percentage of people already draft so would put an end to all of the post-race complaints over people drafting but not getting caught. Sounds like it would only apply to Nat. Champs. races though?

tunney

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Why ..? Bike races don't have fully closed roads?

Bike races aint happening anymore and its spreading from Swords. but we are not allow talk about this.

shansey

with the amount of drafting that goes on anyway its not going to make much of a difference.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

What about the poor lads who bought the nice new TT bikes

pgibbo

Alfonso Helpful Treadmill wrote: »

What about the poor lads who bought the nice new TT bikes

There's the US & Europe

mossym

pgibbo wrote: »

There's the US & Europe

except for that new US rule saying euro bought bikes cannot be used in any races on american soil, including IM races. shouldn't affect anyone on here though i'd guess


:)

zico10

mossym wrote: »

except for that new US rule saying euro bought bikes cannot be used in any races on american soil, including IM races. shouldn't affect anyone on here though i'd guess


:)

Can you tell me more, please?

mossym

zico10 wrote: »

Can you tell me more, please?

Sorry Zico, the only rule i'm aware of is the one where jackyback a) enters a race in the US, and b) buys a new very expensive bike and i have to make a joke that there is a rule in the US that says he can't use it. i thought the smiles gave it away, sorry.


on a serious note, for those of you who are thinking of racing stateside, there was a thread on slowtwitch recently which said any helmet without a US certification sticker was not allowed, which ruled out a lot of euro lids. no joking on this one, worth looking into if you are going to race over the there

68 lost souls

mossym wrote: »

Sorry Zico, the only rule i'm aware of is the one where jackyback a) enters a race in the US, and b) buys a new very expensive bike and i have to make a joke that there is a rule in the US that says he can't use it. i thought the smiles gave it away, sorry.


on a serious note, for those of you who are thinking of racing stateside, there was a thread on slowtwitch recently which said any helmet without a US certification sticker was not allowed, which ruled out a lot of euro lids. no joking on this one, worth looking into if you are going to race over the there

The helmet rule is true however I may be wrong in thinking exemptions can be made for non US entrants?

peter kern

Alfonso Helpful Treadmill wrote: »

What about the poor lads who bought the nice new TT bikes

You exchange the handlebars :-)

topcat77

I like triathlon as a individual sport. I can see clubs/Friends working together on this one.

For example:

A female triathlete with a fast swim, slow bike & fast run enrolls the help of a faster male cyclist to pull her along during the bike leg and ends up winning her first event due to a vastly improved bike leg.

This is just one example of what can happen when the waves are not split by gender or age group.

will be interesting to see how this pans out.

tunney

topcat77 wrote: »

I like triathlon as a individual sport. I can see clubs/Friends working together on this one.

For example:

A female triathlete with a fast swim, slow bike & fast run enrolls the help of a faster male cyclist to pull her along during the bike leg and ends up winning her first event due to a vastly improved bike leg.

This is just one example of what can happen when the waves are not split by gender or age group.

will be interesting to see how this pans out.

I think I know what club you are in then

BTH

topcat77 wrote: »

I like triathlon as a individual sport. I can see clubs/Friends working together on this one.

For example:

A female triathlete with a fast swim, slow bike & fast run enrolls the help of a faster male cyclist to pull her along during the bike leg and ends up winning her first event due to a vastly improved bike leg.

This is just one example of what can happen when the waves are not split by gender or age group.

will be interesting to see how this pans out.

This is already happening. And not just in small local races here in Ireland, but amongst pro women at Ironman level as well.

http://www.ifollowtheswallow.co.uk/#!blogger-feed/cc7m

I have participated in Championship races held where age group pelotons are peppered with professional ladies; where there is little to no media provision; where the race is unfair for every single racer.

BTH

I was looking for this one as well.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/News/Trouble_at_70.3_Miami_3206.html

Making things draft legal wont suddenly see this kind of thing happening, its already happening. Everywhere.

topcat77

BTH wrote: »

I was looking for this one as well.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/News/Trouble_at_70.3_Miami_3206.html

Making things draft legal wont suddenly see this kind of thing happening, its already happening. Everywhere.

It might be happening now but it's called cheating. Soon it'll be called being professional.

shansey

I'd have no problem with it. Smart competitive riders will use it to their advantage and the newbies barely have a clue about drafting anyway for the first few races.

Means less people being pissed off about losing places because of drafting too.

mossym

the runners will love it. the bikers not so much.

maybe instead of triathlons they can just be called trisportifs from now on.

mirrormatrix

mossym wrote: »

the runners will love it. the bikers not so much.

maybe instead of triathlons they can just be called trisportifs from now on.

But the run is draft legal already so problem solved!

Seriously though, tri as it stands is weighted in favour of good 1) bikers 2) runners 3) swimmers. It's the good swimmers I feel really sorry for.

MojoMaker

Trisportifs is a bit unfair. WTS is draft-legal, are they just journeymen cyclists too?

Puts the bike leg into context with the swim and run - i.e. an actual race.

To be welcomed IMO, even if only initially for CAT1 racing, hope it trickles down to AG racing quickly though.

shansey

MojoMaker wrote: »

Trisportifs is a bit unfair. WTS is draft-legal, are they just journeymen cyclists too?

Puts the bike leg into context with the swim and run - i.e. an actual race.

To be welcomed IMO, even if only initially for CAT1 racing, hope it trickles down to AG racing quickly though.

I'm for it 100%

It will push people to become better swimmers and get into a better faster pack on the bike.

it will kill the element of bike racing though as no point in breaking free just to be swallowed up by the group again.

MojoMaker

shansey wrote: »

I'm for it 100%
it will kill the element of bike racing though as no point in breaking free just to be swallowed up by the group again.

Isn't that the definition of bike racing though?

Worth a triathlete's time doing some bike racing actually - learn how to work in packs, chase down breakaways, and improve bike handling and control. Anyone coming to triathlon from cycling should find this development a real boon. Might even tempt a few over from the dark side too - positive allround, no?

Kurt_Godel

It seems to work well in practice- most races over the past couple of years have seen lots of successful packs and no crashes due to packs. May as well bring it on, and level the playing field for anyone who cares about racing.

Separate M/F swim starts (separate AG swim starts if important) should take care of any illegal pacing issues. It has to be an improvement on the current situation where you're a mug for playing by bike draft rules.

mossym

MojoMaker wrote: »

Trisportifs is a bit unfair. WTS is draft-legal, are they just journeymen cyclists too?
.

Who mentioned journeyman cyclists?

look at the % of "completion with no eye on the time" participants in tri at the moment. with drafting rules in place the examples of them rolling along in packs chatting are widespread. how much worse do you think it will be when they are allowed?

MojoMaker wrote: »

Puts the bike leg into context with the swim and run - i.e. an actual race.

How does removing the advantage of the stronger guys make it more of an actual race?

mirrormatrix

If you really wanted to even things out on the bike leg (and get rid of road closure issues), just set up a couple of hundred turbos in transition. It has the added bonus that you can't buy yourself time with TT bikes, disc wheels etc...

tunney

mirrormatrix wrote: »

If you really wanted to even things out on the bike leg (and get rid of road closure issues), just set up a couple of hundred turbos in transition. It has the added bonus that you can't buy yourself time with TT bikes, disc wheels etc...

But then the big fat "diesel engines" would smash everyone. Weight and Cda needs to come into it.

I disagree with the classical "triathletes cannot handle bikes". What I would say is that most people who ride bikes cannot handle bikes.

A4s cannot, in general, ride a bike - fitness or handling wise. I've gone out with a good few clubs and vowed never to go near roadies again (at least clubs) ever again.

Kurt_Godel

mirrormatrix wrote: »

If you really wanted to even things out on the bike leg (and get rid of road closure issues), just set up a couple of hundred turbos in transition. It has the added bonus that you can't buy yourself time with TT bikes, disc wheels etc...

I did an indoor Sprint last year- pool, exercise bike, and treadmill. Second guessing the gear I'd packed/left out, all the way there

Enduro

Speaking as a non-triathlete, I find draft legal races to be a better spectator sport. I'd also prefer to try out a draft legal race than non-draft race if I was to give Tri a go. Getting rid of the reliance on external marshals and the gains available to rule breakers seems like a very good thing to me. Just outside observations!

tommy_tucker

tunney wrote: »

A4s cannot, in general, ride a bike - fitness or handling wise. I've gone out with a good few clubs and vowed never to go near roadies again (at least clubs) ever again.

The A4 comment is just simply untrue.

What clubs were you going out with? i've never felt unsafe on a club spin

tunney

tommy_tucker wrote: »

The A4 comment is just simply untrue.

What clubs were you going out with? i've never felt unsafe on a club spin

100% of my experiences back it up.

Glad you feel safe on your spins
Either
1) Your club is actually safe.
2) You are oblivious.

shotgunmcos

Makes complete sense. ITU is the road to the Olympics. Young triathletes simply need to learn those bike skills. Should be the format of all NS tris for the top 50 M/F. Let the rest do what they like then.

Enduro wrote: »

........ I'd also prefer to try out a draft legal race than non-draft race if I was to give Tri a go........!

Eh!

Congrats on your Ultra Running Gong BTW

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

tunney wrote: »

100% of my experiences back it up.

Glad you feel safe on your spins
Either
1) Your club is actually safe.
2) You are oblivious.

Care to elaborate, not disagreeing but i thought you never bike raced

tommy_tucker

Alfonso Helpful Treadmill wrote: »

Care to elaborate, not disagreeing but i thought you never bike raced

tunney wrote: »

100% of my experiences back it up.

Glad you feel safe on your spins
Either
1) Your club is actually safe.
2) You are oblivious.

100% of your experiences means nothing, it could have been one race with a big crash.

I have raced with all grades of cyclists A1's to A4's and its consistently the size of the bunch that lead to more crashes.

Maybe your just not use to riding in a group....

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

tommy_tucker wrote: »

100% of your experiences means nothing, it could have been one race with a big crash.

I have raced with all grades of cyclists A1's to A4's and its consistently the size of the bunch that lead to more crashes.

Maybe your just not use to riding in a group....

Raced a season in A4 and a season in A3, notable difference in bike handling skills, fitness feeds into that also, guys tend to make stupid errors when struggling all over their bike. So i disagree with your post, A4 bike handling skills in general are poor.

Djoucer

Alfonso Helpful Treadmill wrote: »

Care to elaborate, not disagreeing but i thought you never bike raced

So has Tunney bike raced?