Agressive parent

Annasopra

My Sister has breast cancer and a business that struggles very badly.

My Dad is less than supportive and constantly agressive towards her. He makes her feel guilty for asking him for lifts to hospital appointments and then he makes her feel guilty for asking other people. When he does bring her to appointments he shouts at her a lot in the car and he gets really really really impatient if she is more than half an hour. His fiancee had breast cancer 2 years ago and he treated her like a princess. The fiancee often joins in in some of the shouting and agressiveness.

I dont really what to do about the whole thing if anything.

Penny Tration

If it were me in your shoes, I'd be sitting dad down and asking him why he's being so aggressive and rude, when she's ill and needing support.

However,I doubt that will go down well.

I think the best thing you and your sister could do is try to rely on other people, not your father. Arrange for friends or relatives to help with lifts and other stuff if possible, but avoid asking your dad.

Having been through it with his fiancee, maybe he just can't cope and is reacting aggressively to mask how worried he is? If you think this is the case, a calm chat could help. If not, I'd seek support and help elsewhere.

Annasopra

Penny Tration wrote: »

If it were me in your shoes, I'd be sitting dad down and asking him why he's being so aggressive and rude, when she's ill and needing support.

However,I doubt that will go down well.

I think the best thing you and your sister could do is try to rely on other people, not your father. Arrange for friends or relatives to help with lifts and other stuff if possible, but avoid asking your dad.

Having been through it with his fiancee, maybe he just can't cope and is reacting aggressively to mask how worried he is? If you think this is the case, a calm chat could help. If not, I'd seek support and help elsewhere.

It's complicated

I don't talk much to my Dad - there are some other issues.

If I tried to calmly chat to him he would get very offended and aggressive towards me and it might make things worse.

Penny Tration

Is there anyone who could speak to him on behalf of your sister, who he may be more receptive to?

If there isn't, then I think the only thing you and your sister can do is arrange lifts from other people, and ask that they don't tell your father (you mentioned he gets ratty with her when other people help with lifts). Try find someone else to rely on because tbh he's obviously not very reliable and is putting a lot of unnecessary stress upon your poor sister.

nikkibikki

I'd be inclined, if I were you or your sister, to just tell him to f@@k off!! Your sister needs to be as strong as possible in order to beat the cancer, he of all people should understand that having been through it before with his partner and it being his child who is ill. If he gets upset about other people bringing her, he is not prioritizing her but is rather his pride and reputation ahead of her needs. Sorry OP, I know he's your Dad but it's disgusting behaviour IMO.

Annasopra

nikkibikki wrote: »

I'd be inclined, if I were you or your sister, to just tell him to f@@k off!! Your sister needs to be as strong as possible in order to beat the cancer, he of all people should understand that having been through it before with his partner and it being his child who is ill. If he gets upset about other people bringing her, he is not prioritizing her but is rather his pride and reputation ahead of her needs. Sorry OP, I know he's your Dad but it's disgusting behaviour IMO.

I agree with almost everything you said but in a way its very very complicated. Don't want to get too much into the complications here but he is kind of bullying her and dictating her life in another facet.

She is avoiding him now as much as possible. She has to get 20 sessions of radiotherapy over 4 weeks. He wanted to drive her to all of them. She point blank refused and and she has 5 people doing one weekday each including him.

She's in such a bad space over it all - she went for counselling and spent an hour balling crying about it.

The other day Him and His partner were both shouting at her for being late that even the Nurse had to intervene and tell them to stop being so selfish.

intheclouds

She needs to not be having lifts with him.

If he asks why it's actually better just to be honest and say it's because his behaviour is so upsetting and aggressive. Otherwise it's just enabling his bad behaviour.

Personally I'd rather stand in the rain for a bus than accept someone being horrible and aggressive for a lift.

If he is dictating her life in another facet then she should pull back out of that too.

I realise and fully understand that family dynamics are complex but there is a point where a person needs to draw a line in the sand. Cancer is definitely that point!

I do wonder why either of you maintain a relationship with someone whose behaviour is so bad that unrelated health professionals are actually speaking up.

Annasopra

intheclouds wrote: »

She needs to not be having lifts with him.

If he asks why it's actually better just to be honest and say it's because his behaviour is so upsetting and aggressive. Otherwise it's just enabling his bad behaviour.

Personally I'd rather stand in the rain for a bus than accept someone being horrible and aggressive for a lift.

If he is dictating her life in another facet then she should pull back out of that too.

I realise and fully understand that family dynamics are complex but there is a point where a person needs to draw a line in the sand. Cancer is definitely that point!

I do wonder why either of you maintain a relationship with someone whose behaviour is so bad that unrelated health professionals are actually speaking up.

It's very very difficult and complex - she's in a weak place and she can't be assertive with him. She is minimising as much contact as possible. He has in the last year or so suggested that he would transfer a property he owns to her but only if she gets a job and dumps her business - she's scared if she is assertive with him at the moment he will change his mind on the house.

I have little contact with My Dad and his Partner - they're very difficult people to get on with.

Roselm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

He has in the last year or so suggested that he would transfer a property he owns to her but only if she gets a job and dumps her business - she's scared if she is assertive with him at the moment he will change his mind on the house.
.

He's only hinted at it!!!
I wouldn't be at all surprised if she got the job etc and your dad then found something else she had to do before he would hand it over.
He sounds like he's on a complete power trip-aggressive if she gets a lift, aggressive if she doesn't...!
Do you think he'd actually give her the house?

Annasopra

Roselm wrote: »

He's only hinted at it!!!
I wouldn't be at all surprised if she got the job etc and your dad then found something else she had to do before he would hand it over.
He sounds like he's on a complete power trip-aggressive if she gets a lift, aggressive if she doesn't...!
Do you think he'd actually give her the house?

I dont know what the full conversation was re the house.

intheclouds

I know what a manipulative parent can be like and how hard it is to detach but no promise of a house, no asset, no money etc is worth being abused for.

At some point a person has to step up and take responsibility for their own behaviour. She has the choice to disengage. Sure, it's not easy, and she may feel weak and want a house etc... But she has the power to walk away from him, especially if there is support given. Not easy at all tho and she probably can't even see that as a choice right now.

If you could point her at professional support as well as personally support her that'd be great.

dori_dormer

The house is just another form of control. Even if she did everythign he asked, and he gave her the house, from then on it would be ' I gave you a roof over your head, you owe me'

She needs to break away from him. Maybe not this instant, but take steps. Hell back off if he has no way of controlling her and finances are the easiest. She'll feel stronger and more empowered from it.

If her business makes her happy she should stick with it.

Annasopra

dori_dormer wrote: »

The house is just another form of control. Even if she did everythign he asked, and he gave her the house, from then on it would be ' I gave you a roof over your head, you owe me'

She needs to break away from him. Maybe not this instant, but take steps. Hell back off if he has no way of controlling her and finances are the easiest. She'll feel stronger and more empowered from it.

If her business makes her happy she should stick with it.

I think you're right. I mean its so control freaky. The problem is the business is making no money and her living situation is not ideal.

I kind of understand why he wants her to let go of the business though.

dori_dormer

It would be a lovely gesture if I thought it was genuine. Safe place to live and figure out the business, or start a new one etc.

Bu tif it comes with conditions it's just not worth it. He will always control her and she'll be miserable

I was in a similar situation but thankfully not also ill. He is manipulating someone in a very vulnerable position.

It may seem like a good idea now but she would regret it in the long run

CollyFlower

There's a free bus service your sister can use if she's stuck for a lift.

http://www.cancer.ie/support/volunteer-driver-service/frequently-asked-questions#sthash.t7PqrgIY.dpbs

The Princess Bride

Joey if your father won't listen to you then you're gonna have to look at other ways to help your sister.
She should be channeling her energy into fighting this disease instead of fighting with your dad.

Perhaps look at getting that 5th day covered by somebody else?
Also-make contact with the Irish Cancer Society www.cancer.ie -there are lots of publications available to download to help you cope with everything.
And ask about their voluntary Driver scheme @ 01 2310522.

Best of luck and take care.

Emme

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

It's very very difficult and complex - she's in a weak place and she can't be assertive with him. She is minimising as much contact as possible. He has in the last year or so suggested that he would transfer a property he owns to her but only if she gets a job and dumps her business - she's scared if she is assertive with him at the moment he will change his mind on the house.

The property is like a carrot on a stick to keep her in line. The promise of a property will probably go on for years and will be withdrawn at whim. He wants her to dump her business before he hands over the property. Big red flag. The goalposts on his part and the requirements on her part will continually change. Mark my words, if she goes along with his wishes and eventually gets the property signed over to her she will not have a happy or healthy day in it. Is your sister single? If so if he signs it over to her he won't do so until she is too old have children or do anything but care for him and his partner. I know of people who fell for this type of arrangement and they are trapped, sick, broke and suffering as a result. Don't let your sister fall for it. If she does she will spend her life walking on eggshells trying to keep your father happy and her chances of living a healthy life will be seriously diminished.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I have little contact with My Dad and his Partner - they're very difficult people to get on with.

Good. They sound like narcissists. Look up narcissism, there are several support groups online and on facebook. They all say the best policy is to go no contact (NC) with the narcissist/s.

My advice to you and your sister is to cut all contact with your father and his partner. Find other ways for your sister to get to hospital. It's pointless for her to go to hospital to try and get better if the people bringing her there verbally abuse her. Cancer like most illnesses is stress related and those two are not helping her recovery.

Annasopra

I dunno

I guess I've never realised how bad it all is until I started this thread and started to write everything down.

It's difficult and complex.

They don't understand what they are doing is horrible and if we ever challenged them we would be seen as very disobedient, horrible people.

Recently for Fathers day; My Brother, My Sister and I offered to take them for lunch. It was the Sunday of fathers day and I discovered I had something else on that day. I wanted to postpone it to the following week. I rang my Dad to ask if this was possible. He told me I was being awkward and selfish and spoiling everything. I told him I wasnt cancelling altogether and was trying to be reasonable by rearranging. He kept on and on that I was being selfish and unreasonable. I got annoyed and asked him to stop making me feel guilty. This made things worse. He just got really passive agressive with me, telling me I should go to the other thing. I was left feeling as if I would be attacked for turning up to lunch and attacked for not turning up to lunch. Eventually I agreed that I would go on Fathers Day and leave earlyish. They were ok about the whole thing but honestly it was a stressful drama that there was no need for.

Emme

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I dunno

I guess I've never realised how bad it all is until I started this thread and started to write everything down.

It's difficult and complex.

They don't understand what they are doing is horrible and if we ever challenged them we would be seen as very disobedient, horrible people.

Recently for Fathers day; My Brother, My Sister and I offered to take them for lunch. It was the Sunday of fathers day and I discovered I had something else on that day. I wanted to postpone it to the following week. I rang my Dad to ask if this was possible. He told me I was being awkward and selfish and spoiling everything. I told him I wasnt cancelling altogether and was trying to be reasonable by rearranging. He kept on and on that I was being selfish and unreasonable. I got annoyed and asked him to stop making me feel guilty. This made things worse. He just got really passive agressive with me, telling me I should go to the other thing. I was left feeling as if I would be attacked for turning up to lunch and attacked for not turning up to lunch. Eventually I agreed that I would go on Fathers Day and leave earlyish. They were ok about the whole thing but honestly it was a stressful drama that there was no need for.

Oh yes they do understand what they are doing is horrible. They are deliberately being horrible to manipulate you into doing what they want and they don't care what the cost is to you. If you challenge them the only people who would see you as very disobedient horrible people are them. Nobody else. Even the nurses in the hospital see that they are out of order.

Please check out narcissism. Some times ago a friend told me to do this with regard to a difficult relative and a light came on. After years of running myself ragged trying to please them I realised I could do nothing except walk away and save what little of my sanity was left. Your sister's health is at stake here and they aren't even putting her first or considering her needs. Why are you giving these people the time of day?

intheclouds

You can never please people like this because the thing that they take pleasure from is being as horrible as anything in order to control you. So there is no correct behaviour. Ever. No matter what you do, it'll never be right.

So stop trying to please them. Live your own life and distance yourself as much as possible for your own mental health. And help your sister do the same.

Annasopra

An update long story but I'll summarise a bit.

I was ranting and raving at my Brother about the whole thing and he said he would talk to them.

I asked him to speak to my Sister first. He didnt. He spoke to them calmly and unemotionally. He told my Dad that he should talk to my sister not at her. My future step mother got narky and told my Brother not to speak to My Dad like that. Anyway he was all very calm and polite and made his point.

My Sister was pissed off and upset because she feels that My Dad will now turn on her. She had also just planned to cancel all his lifts and now its very up in the air.

My Brother, Sister and me always goto My Dads for Christmas. I've decided if he is agressive to her in the next week or two I won't be going to his house this year. I'll try and organise Christmas for the three of us.

Emme

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

An update long story but I'll summarise a bit.

I was ranting and raving at my Brother about the whole thing and he said he would talk to them.

I asked him to speak to my Sister first. He didnt. He spoke to them calmly and unemotionally. He told my Dad that he should talk to my sister not at her. My future step mother got narky and told my Brother not to speak to My Dad like that. Anyway he was all very calm and polite and made his point.

My Sister was pissed off and upset because she feels that My Dad will now turn on her. She had also just planned to cancel all his lifts and now its very up in the air.

My Brother, Sister and me always goto My Dads for Christmas. I've decided if he is agressive to her in the next week or two I won't be going to his house this year. I'll try and organise Christmas for the three of us.

Ranting and raving at your brother or anyone else isn't going to achieve anything. The three of you (siblings) need to get together, sit down and calmly discuss a strategy to deal with your father and his partner. Also discuss with your sister how she is going to manage lifts without your father. For her sake don't mess things up or she'll end up getting lifts with him again and this will upset her even more and it won't help her cancer. His partner isn't helping - do any of you get along with her? If the answer is no then it's even more of a reason to put distance between the three of you and your father.

If your father isn't aggressive to your sister in the next two weeks he will be aggressive when the three of you go to his house for Christmas and his partner will join in. Don't bother going to them for Christmas - let the two of them spend it on their own. His partner probably doesn't want you around and she will make things very unpleasant for you if you spend Christmas with your father.

In the meantime organise Christmas for the three of you and don't back down no matter how nice your father is. It won't last. You are grown ups now, time to do your own thing for Christmas.

Annasopra

Emme wrote: »

Ranting and raving at your brother or anyone else isn't going to achieve anything. The three of you (siblings) need to get together, sit down and calmly discuss a strategy to deal with your father and his partner. Also discuss with your sister how she is going to manage lifts without your father. For her sake don't mess things up or she'll end up getting lifts with him again and this will upset her even more and it won't help her cancer. His partner isn't helping - do any of you get along with her? If the answer is no then it's even more of a reason to put distance between the three of you and your father.

If your father isn't aggressive to your sister in the next two weeks he will be aggressive when the three of you go to his house for Christmas and his partner will join in. Don't bother going to them for Christmas - let the two of them spend it on their own. His partner probably doesn't want you around and she will make things very unpleasant for you if you spend Christmas with your father.

In the meantime organise Christmas for the three of you and don't back down no matter how nice your father is. It won't last. You are grown ups now, time to do your own thing for Christmas.

I know what you are saying but it's not that easy

Emme

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I know what you are saying but it's not that easy

I know, I have been there and am still caught in the net. If I had been more ruthless 10 years ago I would be in a far better position today. In a worst case scenario a person can end up sacrificing their entire lives, health and sanity for these people. Without exaggerating, they are a bottomless pit of negativity sucking away the good out of everyone and everything about them.

The OP has 2 siblings to call on for support. She's not dealing with her father and his partner on her own. Her sister with cancer should be her priority. It would be healthier all round to cut ties with her father and his partner.

The best Christmas I ever had was spent away from my family. I spent it volunteering with the Knights of Columbanus in the RDS serving Christmas dinner to the homeless and my family would look down on some of these people, especially the alcoholics. Standard Christmas behaviour in my family's house (shouting, roaring, abuse etc.) was not tolerated in the RDS. Anyone ruining it for everyone else was thrown out and rightly so. I learned something really valuable during that Christmas away from my family and to this day I am grateful that I had the opportunity to serve those people. If the OP and her siblings could do something like that for the day and then have a quiet dinner for themselves it would be far better than walking on eggshells with their father and his partner.

Annasopra

Emme wrote: »

I know, I have been there and am still caught in the net. If I had been more ruthless 10 years ago I would be in a far better position today. In a worst case scenario a person can end up sacrificing their entire lives, health and sanity for these people. Without exaggerating, they are a bottomless pit of negativity sucking away the good out of everyone and everything about them.

The OP has 2 siblings to call on for support. She's not dealing with them on her own. Her sister with cancer should be her priority. It would be healthier all round to cut ties with her father and his partner.

I am the OP. I get ya. I also today discovered my future step mother was bitching to my Aunt about my sister saying she is a complete hypochondriac and she told my cousin who has bipolar/manic depression - "oh we all have problems just get on with life"

Taltos

OP - you keep saying it's not that easy.
But the scary thing is it really really is.

A few things that might help.
1. Find someone to talk to. Whether you want to accept it or not you've been brought up by at least 1 toxic parent, your thinking, your self worth, your idea of who you are is all shaped by that person. The very thing you claim your sister can't do - break away - is what we are seeing here being repeated by you.
It's OK to seek help to change that...

2. There are some good self-help books out there on toxic families, one or two regularly get recommended here. I'll have a look and try to find the name of one or two.,

3. Just because you seem to be nearing the point of being able to walk away from your father does not mean the rest of your family are. And you may have to accept that they might never ever be able to take that step. And you know, that is a huge shame as so long as they let his shadow control them your sister really won't ever be free - even after your father is long dead.

My suggestion then for what it's worth - is to make a decision and do all you can to stick to it. That decision is for you and you alone to cut ties with this emotional vampire and to work on your own happiness. This doesn't mean you are not there for your siblings. Sit them down and tell them you plan to cut him out of your life, tell them you accept they might not be able or be willing to - but that when they are you'll be there to help them through the weak moments when the easiest thing is to pick up a phone and ring that guy to let him continue to poison their lives.

Tell them you plan this Christmas to be the first of your new "free" Christmas's and you would love them to join you at some local hotel (book now asap) but if they feel they can't that is OK - you still love them.

All of this is about making sure YOU are OK - and you never know - you might inspire them to follow suit - but please don't bank on it, or let it crush you if they later renege and fail to turn up for the Christmas dinner with you.

I really feel for you here, I've seen some extended family go through this, for decades she let him control her in little ways, until the day he started criticising her daughter and that was that - two years later she still misses her father, but on balance the decision to eject him from their home and lives was the right one and she knows in her heart she is better for it - though still working through the emotional scars and the legacy of "Irish guilt" that such a choice brings...

Update: Books previously recommended in PI
codependent no more - http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=co-dependent+no+more
Emotional Blackmail - http://www.amazon.com/Emotional-Blackmail-Susan-Forward/dp/0694518379
healing trauma
coping with your difficult older parent - a guide for stressed out children

Emme

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I am the OP. I get ya. I also today discovered my future step mother was bitching to my Aunt about my sister saying she is a complete hypochondriac and she told my cousin who has bipolar/manic depression - "oh we all have problems just get on with life"

Do you and your siblings really need to spend time around her? She sounds like a piece of work and she's not helping with your father. My advice is that the three of you stick together and focus on your sisters recovery and supporting each other in whatever way you can.

Annasopra

I think I never really realised how bad this all is until I started this discussion.

It's all very complex though. There's a lot to take in and think about from this discussion. There's so many different intertwining angles on it all.

My Sisters health is the priority but now its all over the place. I'm not sure whats happening now next week with the lifts. I don't want to be telling my Sister what to do in another control freaky type manner. I've suggested she just be honest and tell him his behaviour at the moment is stressing her out too much and she cant accept lifts. But I'm not sure if she can do that.

Emme

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I think I never really realised how bad this all is until I started this discussion.

It's all very complex though. There's a lot to take in and think about from this discussion. There's so many different intertwining angles on it all.

My Sisters health is the priority but now its all over the place. I'm not sure whats happening now next week with the lifts. I don't want to be telling my Sister what to do in another control freaky type manner. I've suggested she just be honest and tell him his behaviour at the moment is stressing her out too much and she cant accept lifts. But I'm not sure if she can do that.

Your sister is very vulnerable at the moment and might not have the courage to do this. If she does she might end up backing down and would feel even worse. They would then use this as a further opportunity to abuse her emotionally.

Could you support her? Let her do the talking but be there with her at the time.

The Princess Bride

Joey-Taltos is right. It is easier that you think.
Her treatment is priority -the dynamics with your dad and his partner takes a back seat.They sound like they're jealous of the attention your sister is getting which is both sad and immature.
Did you contact the ICS about their transport scheme . It'll be one less thing to worry about.

It's a horrible situation to be in -take care.

Neyite

Mod:

Please folks, don't ask the OP to pm you in this forum. It's forbidden for very good reason.

Sun in Capri

Your Dad sounds like a complete bully and if you tackle a bully they usually collapse like a deck of cards. If my sister was being treated like this by my Father I would tell him in no uncertain terms to stop and point out his disgraceful behaviour to him. The last thing your sister wants is stress. Imagine going for such treatment and having to worry about how long you would be because your Father would be angry with you!! House or no house I personally would not let my Father or anyone treat my sister like this when clearly she is very vulnerable. I wouild not care what relationship I had with my Father or even if I had none, I would put my oar in and point out the error of his ways.