Who looks after tradesman?

Mfarr3ll

Hi guys
I'm a bit lost at the mo my husband did alot of work recently in a b+b the lady had a full bathroom refit and then added on certain other things to be included. She paid for the bathroom and when she had sliderobes built and a few units on her spefications and measurements she paid an additional amount by cheque and agreed the slid robes needed one more luck of paint in n a couple of days
Yesterday the bank rang my husband as she had cancelled her cheque. He in turn rang her but got her husband and he said she didn't like the units or wardrobes so she's not paying.
Where can we go from here? 600 euro down and materials 4 weeks before Xmas which we cannot afford.
Who looks after tradesmen when this happens
Thanks.

L1011

Courts.

Tigger

I don't do work without cleared cheques or payment
I tell them it's easy for you to sue me it's hardfir me to sue you
I have a good reputation and my prices are good
God be with those trades that still do payment after cos its a brave new world

uck51js9zml2yt

Go back in and remove the wardrobe's.

Mfarr3ll

Remington Broad Stool wrote: »

Go back in and remove the wardrobe's.

That's what he wants to do but not in a nice way he's going crazy

Mfarr3ll

L1011 wrote: »

Courts.

Unfortunately that could go on forever

Mfarr3ll

Tigger wrote: »

I don't do work without cleared cheques or payment
I tell them it's easy for you to sue me it's hardfir me to sue you
I have a good reputation and my prices are good
God be with those trades that still do payment after cos its a brave new world

He usually gets a down payment but after he was paid in full for the bathroom and she just had a few extras I suppose he thought nothing of it. He sat outside her b+b tonight but her nor her husband would answer his calls

uck51js9zml2yt

He needs to roll up Monday morning with his tool box.
Wonder could her report her to the Gardai for theft/ fraud if she seeks to hold onto them.

Either way, small claims court for 25€ online.

L1011

Remington Broad Stool wrote: »

Either way, small claims court for 25€ online.

Not a valid case for them.

Into The Blue

I'd ring the local garda station, explain the situation and ask to be accompanied when you go to remove the presses. At the very least the gaurds will ring the b&b.. Might shake them

fro9etb8j5qsl2

Into The Blue wrote: »

I'd ring the local garda station, explain the situation and ask to be accompanied when you go to remove the presses. At the very least the gaurds will ring the b&b.. Might shake them

And threaten to badmouth the b&b all over the Internet. And if that doesn't work, THEN remove the units.

LionelNashe

If she doesn't like the units, why do her the favour of removing them for her. I'd say take her to court. It doesn't matter how long it will take as long as she has to pay up and pay the court costs in the end.

dpofloinn

Do not enter the property or remove anything, Do not threaten anyone legally or otherwise that will only create a ****storm that will come back and bite you in the ass. Calling the guards will not be of any use, this will be considered a civil matter. Contact your solicitor Monday morning for advice with how to proceed

dixiefly

I really feel your pain as your husband sounds v genuine.

I cannot offer any better advise other than a call to a solicitor asap.

And name and shame here at least by PM.

dudara

This is not a Consumer Issue, as your husband is running a business. Moving to E& BM

dudara

dudara

dudara wrote: »

This is not a Consumer Issue, as your husband is running a business. Moving to E& BM

dudara

Has your husband got anything in writing or was it all done verbally?

If he has nothing then its a lesson learned the hard way.

Would contact customer and arrange a time to go in and remove wardrobes etc, and in the future have work order paperwork on his person at all times that he can fill details into and get the customer to sign on the spot whenever they request an extra lick of paint or an extra door. Make sure the fine print is heavily in your favour.
If the person won't let him remove the installations, then call the guards and consult solicitor. That would be grounds for a lawsuit I'd imagine.

screamer

Seen this before with a friend who was a carpenter same story did the work never got paid. Small claims court won't help as you're a business. You can't enter her property and remove them that us illegal her fraudulently not paying you is fine. I'd put a protest outside her b and b coming up to Christmas and Shame her into coughing up.

KERSPLAT!

No idea if it would or could work or how much it would cost but could you contact a debt collection agency? They'll want a % but hopefully you'll get something from it.

I wouldn't be letting them away with not paying anyway, its hard enough to make a living without this shîte

cocoman

A strongly worded solicitors letter will probably work but it will cost a few euro.

sf80

Talk to the bank and/or solicitor. A cheque has a special meaning, I'd be surprised if you can just cancel a cheque like that. Smells like fraud to me; why would anyone ever use cheques if it was that easy?

my3cents

sf80 wrote: »

Talk to the bank and/or solicitor. A cheque has a special meaning, I'd be surprised if you can just cancel a cheque like that. Smells like fraud to me; why would anyone ever use cheques if it was that easy?

You can cancel a cheque provided its not cleared, no problem. There's nothing in law to stop you doing so and its just the same as not paying in the first place. Some people don't like accepting cheques for that very reason.

sf80

I think the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act, 2001 applies here.

This is no different than paying with a cheque you know will bounce

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/customers-bouncing-cheques-now-face-jail-25885702.html

my3cents

sf80 wrote: »

I think the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act, 2001 applies here.

This is no different than paying with a cheque you know will bounce

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/customers-bouncing-cheques-now-face-jail-25885702.html

The OP should read that link.

Mfarr3ll

He has her bounced cheque well it's on the way back to our house from the bank.
Her husband said he didn't give an invoice and it took them 3 days to take the wardrobe apart but when my husband replied I'm recording this conversation he wouldn't say a thing. She hasn't been given an invoice as he was die back to coat the wardrobe's but she wants to claim the vat back on the 6k of other work she got done.

That article above is very handy thanku.

power101

Has your husband given her any invoice for any of the work? This sounds like she is using the home renovation incentive scheme. Is your husband a qualifying contractor for this scheme?

Mfarr3ll

power101 wrote: »

Has your husband given her any invoice for any of the work? This sounds like she is using the home renovation incentive scheme. Is your husband a qualifying contractor for this scheme?

My husband is a qualified electrician + plumber he has a maintenance company with a tiler/painter/plasterer + carpenter working for him he is vat registered and tax compliant so if that qualifies him to do it the answer would be yes. He hasn't given her the invoice as the works are not complete but he has no issue giving one when he's paid he rang her today on the landlines and told her he would be over Monday and was going to sit outside u til he was paid and also he is bringing a witness with him he told her I know you booked out Monday so I will he voicing all my issues to your customers 😄 I checked her b+b online and told him she was booked out Monday fingers crossed

power101

Mfarr3ll wrote: »

My husband is a qualified electrician + plumber he has a maintenance company with a tiler/painter/plasterer + carpenter working for him he is vat registered and tax compliant so if that qualifies him to do it the answer would be yes. He hasn't given her the invoice as the works are not complete but he has no issue giving one when he's paid he rang her today on the landlines and told her he would be over Monday and was going to sit outside u til he was paid and also he is bringing a witness with him he told her I know you booked out Monday so I will he voicing all my issues to your customers 😄 I checked her b+b online and told him she was booked out Monday fingers crossed

I've never in my life heard of someone paying in full for any service or good and not been given a receipt or invoice when asked for one. Invoices are always normally given in advance.

The governments own documents tell homeowners not to pay contractors in full unless they have entered all the details online in order for the homeowner to claim back VAT.

You shouldn’t wait until the job is done to enter the details to HRI
online. If Homeowners or Landlords have any doubts that you
will not enter the payment details to HRI online, they may insist
on retaining some portion of the payment until you enter the
balance to HRI online. This is a matter between yourself and the
Homeowner or Landlord.

Page 6

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/reliefs/hri/hri-contractors-guide.pdf

Mfarr3ll

power101 wrote: »

I've never in my life heard of someone paying in full for any service or good and not been given a receipt or invoice when asked for one. Invoices are always normally given in advance.

The governments own documents tell homeowners not to pay contractors in full unless they have entered all the details online in order for the homeowner to claim back VAT.

Page 6

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/reliefs/hri/hri-contractors-guide.pdf

My husband gives invoices when jobs are complete not before because the line of work he is in 90% of the time he has extras whether it be extra sockets/ extra lights etc etc

And as I said above he was due back to paint the wardrobe's again plus she had requested spotlights in two rooms, the problem here is not the invoice he had no issue with furnishing one as he does for every job on completion !

If you have nothing to contribute to my original query I suggest you refrain from commenting !

pedroeibar1

From a skim-through there is a huge volume of BS on this thread. The cheque was not ‘bounced’, payment on it was stopped. Legally there is a huge difference. The linked article is irrelevant, as are comments on fraud and the gardai (who will not get involved, as it is a civil matter, unless of course you are stupid enough to listen to advice on picketing her house!)

If the customer ordered X and got X she is liable. If she got Y she is not liable. Simply “not liking” the end product is not enough. Options –

1. removal is not an option – (a) I’d guess most of the bill is labour ; (b) what you get back would be worthless and (c) you could find yourself the subject of proceedings for damages to walls, etc.

2. If you think 600 is enough for you to waste weeks of hassle, stress, etc. way past Christmas and well into next year, think about going the legal route. Get the cheque, write out clearly what happened/what was agreed at the time of the order and then go to a solicitor with those details. An item in your favour is that the cheque was written and sent, and then the bank was later instructed to stop payment. A solicitor's letter might bring her to her senses and show you are serious, but I doubt it. First consultations usually are free and the letter would cost you around €50.

You need to back off and not contact her about anything until you have discussed your options with your solicitor. Doing anything else could make your position a lot worse.

power101

The only reason I brought up the above was that the OP brought up the fact that no invoice was given yet which the customer had asked for and the customer wanted to claim back the VAT.

If it's is simple case of the customer not paying well then thats for the courts unfortunately which is probably not worth it in this case as it could cost more than the 600.

Mfarr3ll

Well I received the cheque back this morning and decided to ring the b+b myself I actually got speaking to the woman and informed her who I was and that I'd received her cheque back from our bank she was lovely on the phone (my husband got on great with her at the beginning she gave him a room key in case he needed a snooze on his break and made him tea and toast one night he worked late ....scratches head )...

Anyway I asked her what the problem was and she told me she didn't like the size of the wardrobe or shelves I then asked her did my husband not build them the correct size I'm sorry about that she replied he did but she was upset and she had a new cheque for him as she didn't want to fallout with him and wanted him to do all the electrics to which I replied I will be asking my husband not to return considering the way she has behaved the last number of days because I've seen the stress levels rise he's out the door with work and this was the last thing he needed she's a real meath woman and said the usual thinking a cup of tea could sort it all. So thank u for all the suggestions I was planning on visiting a solicitor next he collected the cheque + furnished her invoice 20 mins ago so let's hope she doesn't have another episode and cancel this one

uck51js9zml2yt

Glad to see its sorted

Is the extra work worth going back for? Wait till the cheque clears and decide.it may be nice to have a possibility of ongoing work !

Mfarr3ll

Remington Broad Stool wrote: »

Glad to see its sorted

Is the extra work worth going back for? Wait till the cheque clears and decide.it may be nice to have a possibility of ongoing work !

He's just in he said she tried to bargain with him he actually picked up cash took 500 and agreed she could get someone else to coat the wardrobe's think he's had enough hassle he said she runs hot and cold and can't be dealing with that. I probably sound like a right moan but it's very annoying that there is so much protection for consumers but not alot of decent tradesman. Tradesman.ie were on to him and they could have sent an investigator as the job came through them but after costs he would have had zilch left

uck51js9zml2yt

Mfarr3ll wrote: »

He's just in he said she tried to bargain with him he actually picked up cash took 500 and agreed she could get someone else to coat the wardrobe's think he's had enough hassle he said she runs hot and cold and can't be dealing with that. I probably sound like a right moan but it's very annoying that there is so much protection for consumers but not alot of decent tradesman. Tradesman.ie were on to him and they could have sent an investigator as the job came through them but after costs he would have had zilch left

Cash is better than a cheque any day of the week.:)

Deposit up front and staged payments may be the only solution soon.
A friend of mine got stung for coach hire to a school a few years ago. The cheque bounced.
He got to a stage where he only took credit card payments up front !

Mfarr3ll

Remington Broad Stool wrote: »

Cash is better than a cheque any day of the week.:)

Deposit up front and staged payments may be the only solution soon.
A friend of mine got stung for coach hire to a school a few years ago. The cheque bounced.
He got to a stage where he only took credit card payments up front !

God its unreal. He actually does stage payments he done 4k worth of work prior and then she added sliderobes and shelving this was the last of it. Some people are never happy she said she was poor and couldn't afford more than 200 so he said he would take her laptop and sell it so her husband just came in and handed him the rest I don't want to insult anyone but j think the woman might be bi polar her mood is an uncertainty at the best of times or maybe just a complete nut job 🙈

Mrs OBumble

Remington Broad Stool wrote: »

Cash is better than a cheque any day of the week.:)

Deposit up front and staged payments may be the only solution soon.
A friend of mine got stung for coach hire to a school a few years ago. The cheque bounced.
He got to a stage where he only took credit card payments up front !

Indeed.

These days Mr OBumble is happy to accompany people to the shop etc and help them pick the <<whatever>> they want - but he no longer provides cashflow for any materials that cost more than about a tenner.

Too many messers who change their minds too easily

Mfarr3ll

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Indeed.

These days Mr OBumble is happy to accompany people to the shop etc and help them pick the <<whatever>> they want - but he no longer provides cashflow for any materials that cost more than about a tenner.

Too many messers who change their minds too easily

Are u serious ? Wow that's great he can do that my husband would never do that he would see it as being unprofessional (I don't mean your husband is x) I think people in the ares he works wouldn't like thst either he's got a lovely couple in baldoyle who he said would bend over back wards for you and them the clients I think it really depends on the people it's so stressful

my3cents

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Indeed.

These days Mr OBumble is happy to accompany people to the shop etc and help them pick the <<whatever>> they want - but he no longer provides cashflow for any materials that cost more than about a tenner.

Too many messers who change their minds too easily

Makes Mr OBumble sound like an odd job man.

kc66

Mfarr3ll wrote: »

she's a real meath woman and said the usual thinking a cup of tea could sort it all.

You have us Meath people well sussed.

Mfarr3ll

kc66 wrote: »

You have us Meath people well sussed.

Helps that I am one 😂

Andrea B.

Had often thought that there is an opening for someone to act as an escrow/arbitrator for sole trader jobs.
Think about it.
Jobs of 500 to 1000 a 5% fee and so forth.
Entering in to agreement would be agreeing to the arbitrator decision as being final.
You can be sure both parties would cross the t's and dot i's beforehand.
Full monies would sit with arbitrator before work commenced

jimmii

Andrea B. wrote: »

Had often thought that there is an opening for someone to act as an escrow/arbitrator for sole trader jobs.
Think about it.
Jobs of 500 to 1000 a 5% fee and so forth.
Entering in to agreement would be agreeing to the arbitrator decision as being final.
You can be sure both parties would cross the t's and dot i's beforehand.
Full monies would sit with arbitrator before work commenced

For 5% I'd definitely be willing to volunteer to do it! What sort of transactions would you think this would interest people for tradesman jobs? I think it would be tricky to set up you would need it to be a body which both parties trust the only company I can imagine it could really work with would be An Post that would make it handier too as you could lodge at one branch and the worker could collect at another. I would trust banks but the way you hear a lot of people talking that wouldn't be the case with a lot it seems!

Also note it is possible to delete posts instead of just edit it out on the other thread.

Andrea B.

Trust. Well, i guess it would have to have accreditation and bonding attached to it.
Trust of arbitrator is the same trust we would put in a judge. However a judge can not ensure that the money is paid over/back/etc.

5% is really just an example.
Either way the business model would have to be thought out carefully.

jimmii

Andrea B. wrote: »

Trust. Well, i guess it would have to have accreditation and bonding attached to it.
Trust of arbitrator is the same trust we would put in a judge. However a judge can not ensure that the money is paid over/back/etc.

5% is really just an example.
Either way the business model would have to be thought out carefully.

Just found that BOI do actually offer it to corporate customers.

I would imagine that for the small amounts that STs normally deal in it just wouldn't be worth the effort. The sender and receiver are likely to not want to pay that much and the escrow holder is unlikely to do it for so little. Presumably with the BOI offering there are fairly high minimums for them to get involved.

Andrea B.

Well. Let us consider a 5k job.
If the escrow cost was 2%/100e. That is 50 to both supplier and client for a lot of peace of mind.
Most likely that it would not go to arbitration so a win/win/win.
Further, arbitration when required may not be so complex. In the case of the OP, I imagine that if they used escrow then the detail would have been put into the agreed job to begin with? So the fact that escrow was entered in to is likely to reduce the need for arbitration.
Further, the arbitrator does not have to chase his payment which is a big+ in business model.

jimmii

Then it's more likely not on the 500-1000 jobs as was suggested before. I don't many would bother using it for exchanges under 5kish.

Andrea B.

Are you a tradesperson, who has to frequently outlay money on materials with no guarantee of payment?

jimmii

Andrea B. wrote: »

Are you a tradesperson, who has to frequently outlay money on materials with no guarantee of payment?

All of what I do involves an outlay with no guarantee of payment unfortunately!

newacc2015

OP I think your husband should stop taking cheques. Give people his account details instead and get people to wire the money. If he is sole trader, he can view his bank account on his phone.

Cheques IMO are not worth the hassle. You have to queue in the bank with them,wait for them to clear, deal with bounced cheques etc. Wire transfers are easier

pedroeibar1

jimmii wrote: »

Then it's more likely not on the 500-1000 jobs as was suggested before. I don't many would bother using it for exchanges under 5kish.

As you say Jimmii, it's not a business model. Escrow works for very large sums, in M&A, investment scenarios, where the escrow fees would pay for a decent sized extension, fitted wardrobes in every room and a kitchen thrown in. Wouldn't work for farty deals with plumbers.
I've participated in several arbitrations, the arbitrator get 10k for the day. Makes my fee look small!