Law with Business / Economics & Finance / MSISS / BESS

oKeeLinGo

Hi guys
For the best two years I haven't been able to decide between these courses. I really want to make sure I make the right option!
I really want to get a front desk position as a trader in an investment bank. However, I'm not sure the best course for this.
I've been told Economics & Finance in UCD but I really want to go Trinity and I don't buy it to be honest. People tell me graduates start off with €100,000+ a year which just isn't true. My friend who is doing the course had a good laugh at that!
At the moment I'm thinking Law with Business first. It keeps my options open but is there enough Maths in it? From what I've seen it doesn't seem like you can do those same Business/Economics modules that you can in BESS such as Investment Analysis etc. Plus I'm not sure I'll get the points!
BESS has been my first choice for a long long time. But I know people that are repeating for courses like Economics and Finance and Business with Law (UCD) that were offered BESS and want to go down a similar route to me
MSISS is another course that is being pushed on me by my career consoler. I have absolutely zero interest doing into the computer industry. I went to a talk on it but it's only 1/6 Business/Economics I think? I don't see why this degree would offer me a better chance of getting a front desk position as a trader than BESS. I know people doing this course and they love it and it seems that there's more of a group than BESS but I'm not just going to stick it ahead of BESS because of the higher points and social reasons.

Any help or advise would be really appreciated!

Nichard Dixon

What skills does your job need? In the absence of more accurate information I would suggest that employers for these positions are often looking for numerate people, not necessarily people with a great general knowledge of business or economics. MSISS or E&F in UCD have a lot of maths, if that does not appeal to you then why does trading appeal to you? Or is the only maths you are interested in the salary paid? None of the graduates from these courses end up in poverty, but some also like their work.

Howard Roark

If you want a job as a trader do E&F or Business analytics in UCD, get good grades over the three years and you'll reach your goal.

oKeeLinGo

Nichard Dixon wrote: »

What skills does your job need? In the absence of more accurate information I would suggest that employers for these positions are often looking for numerate people, not necessarily people with a great general knowledge of business or economics. MSISS or E&F in UCD have a lot of maths, if that does not appeal to you then why does trading appeal to you? Or is the only maths you are interested in the salary paid? None of the graduates from these courses end up in poverty, but some also like their work.

Actually I really enjoy Maths and I'm hoping for a good grade in Higher Level Maths this year (B3 at least). The part of MSISS that is a turn off for me is that computing aspect. I went to a talk and it was basically talking about Computer Science for 80% of it.
I realise that you expect me to be one of those guys who say "I want to be a trader for Goldman Sachs" and know nothing about the job (although I'm not claiming to be an expert by any means), but for me I feel I want the jobs for the right reasons and see the salary merely as a perk of the job.
I know they like people with good numerical skills but I've seen people get into investment banks after studying History etc. and I've read in a previous thread that many people have got top positions in investment banks from Business & Law in UCD. So I don't really think I should rule out Law with Business TCD as of yet.

oKeeLinGo

Howard Roark wrote: »

If you want a job as a trader do E&F or Business analytics in UCD, get good grades over the three years and you'll reach your goal.

I know they're both fantastic degrees but for me UCD is such a trek away so for that reason I'm more keen on TCD. Is there any degree you'd suggest to be as good as those two in TCD? Also do you know people who have got front desk positions from Economics & Finance? I've heard of people getting into investment banking from this degree but never front desk positions. Thanks.

Jasnah

Law and Business isn't a good option, as you'll need strong maths skills if you want to be a trader, especially seeing recent trends in that area. Relatively few people from law make it into the big investment banks, and a lot of those who do are legal analysts as opposed to traders or deal makers.

Have you considered doing TSM Maths and Economics? It would give you a very strong skill-set for getting into the industry, if you do well. Economics and Finance in UCD would probably give you a better background in "finance", but you'd be able to pick that up quite quickly if you have the motivation and the capacity to do the job.

BESS can certainly also lead you down the same route, but it's not as focussed as either of the above options. I don't know anything about MSISS, but you'll need be get used to computing if you're to do a maths-based course or be a trader.

As regards wanting the job for the "right reasons" and seeing the salary as a "perk of the job", it's nice that you're trying to convince yourself that you want to work in the industry for reasons other than money (and it's good practice for interviews), but the reality is that most people in the industry are there to make loads of money. That said, don't expect anywhere near a €100k salary right out of college.

oKeeLinGo

Jasnah wrote: »

Law and Business isn't a good option, as you'll need strong maths skills if you want to be a trader, especially seeing recent trends in that area. Relatively few people from law make it into the big investment banks, and a lot of those who do are legal analysts as opposed to traders or deal makers.

Have you considered doing TSM Maths and Economics? It would give you a very strong skill-set for getting into the industry, if you do well. Economics and Finance in UCD would probably give you a better background in "finance", but you'd be able to pick that up quite quickly if you have the motivation and the capacity to do the job.

BESS can certainly also lead you down the same route, but it's not as focussed as either of the above options. I don't know anything about MSISS, but you'll need be get used to computing if you're to do a maths-based course or be a trader.

As regards wanting the job for the "right reasons" and seeing the salary as a "perk of the job", it's nice that you're trying to convince yourself that you want to work in the industry for reasons other than money (and it's good practice for interviews), but the reality is that most people in the industry are there to make loads of money. That said, don't expect anywhere near a €100k salary right out of college.

Yes I have considered it but I'm not too keen on the way Maths & Economics don't seem to lap over each other. Also thinking ahead basing off my Maths ability I don't think I could get the 1:1 grade and even a high 2:1 seems a bit of stretch (Predicted grade for Maths B1 to B3 with a lot of work). But I guess there is the argument that if I'm not able for it then will I be able for a trading job.

Fair point I guess about wanting the job for the right reasons. I guess what I mean to emphasise is that I'm not looking at a job I'd despise just to make money.

Thanks for the response. Found it helpful

Jasnah

I actually remember hearing that there's actually more overlap in Maths and Economics than in the majority of TSMs, and perhaps some courses are only available to this TSM (this is something you should perhaps look into yourself, as I've only vague memories of talking to someone about it). In any case, I know several people from the TSM who've gone on into finance quite easily through the TSM as it's an excellent pathway.

Also, I'd recommend looking into trading a bit more and especially the recent trend towards more quantitative skills being necessary. The impression I have gotten is that significant quantitative skills are becoming more and more a prerequisite (although some Irish recruiters look for people with a history of achievement in highly competitive environments). Further research might indicate it's not the area for you. Good luck in any case.

khamilto

I know more people who did Maths/TP that work in IB than I do business/economics/finance grads.

Howard Roark

oKeeLinGo wrote: »

I know they're both fantastic degrees but for me UCD is such a trek away so for that reason I'm more keen on TCD. Is there any degree you'd suggest to be as good as those two in TCD? Also do you know people who have got front desk positions from Economics & Finance? I've heard of people getting into investment banking from this degree but never front desk positions. Thanks.

Hi Sorry I didn't reply, I forgot about this thread.

I'm not familiar with TCD at all, I'm sure you can do just fine with a degree from their too but I know UCD's business and finance degrees travel very well.

I know of 2 in front office roles in London direct from E&C, they were very much at the top of their class but you seem motivated enough to be the same.

Credit Suisse opening up a trading floor here and I imagine other will follow suit so maybe by the time you finish there'll be more (is there any now?) front office roles in Ireland.

andrew

oKeeLinGo wrote: »

Yes I have considered it but I'm not too keen on the way Maths & Economics don't seem to lap over each other.

Oh there's overlap. So, so much overlap. Economics gets (or at least can get) incredibly mathsy. Doing Maths and Econ is also pretty broad, in case you decide you don't want to become a trader.

I know two guys who became traders, and both did TSM Maths and Econ. I'd suggest doing something with as much maths as you can possibly take, so not Law and Business at the very least. Not that it's impossible, but the people who do history or some other degree and then go into trading are the exception which proves the rule. And they probably went to a better college than TCD too; of the people you know who didn't do numerate degrees but went into IB, how many of them became traders (I'm guessing not many)?

qweerty

In terms of the actual modules themselves, there's little overlap between Econ and Maths, which is I think what the OP was referring to.

I don't agree that one with a history degree is at a disadvantage. It may very well be the case that they are the exception that proves the rule. But at every IB careers event I've been to, they have stressed that they recruit people with all types of degrees. You see at the Student Managed Fund (a good reason to prioritise TCD) near-fanatics who want to get a job in an IB, and it doesn't seem compatible with an additional interest in a quite divergent discipline, and I think that would explain "the rule". In other words, if you can show the same level of enthusiasm and interest in finance, I don't think you would be at a disadvantage.

Regarding salary being secondary to innate enjoyment, I once thought that, as well. But I've since appreciated that money was an intrinsic part of the attraction for me. It creates the glamour, it attaches import, etc. If you take away the money, you're working in a stressful environment, with little job security, doing a job that is of questionable intrinsic merit. If you are genuinely attracted to the day-to-day activities of the job, similar ones can be found elsewhere, such as in data analysis, economics research, air traffic control, and lots more, all of which, in various ways, improve upon the lifestyle of a trader. And, as was said, manned-trading seems to be dying.

andrew

qweerty wrote: »

In terms of the actual modules themselves, there's little overlap between Econ and Maths, which is I think what the OP was referring to.

I don't agree that one with a history degree is at a disadvantage. It may very well be the case that they are the exception that proves the rule. But at every IB careers event I've been to, they have stressed that they recruit people with all types of degrees. You see at the Student Managed Fund (a good reason to prioritise TCD) near-fanatics who want to get a job in an IB, and it doesn't seem compatible with an additional interest in a quite divergent discipline, and I think that would explain "the rule". In other words, if you can show the same level of enthusiasm and interest in finance, I don't think you would be at a disadvantage.

If they are the execption that proves the rule, then you are at a disadvantage. The only reason they have to say 'we hire non-finance grads too' is because they mostly don't! If they really did generally hire non-finance grads, that would be self evident. I think that's particularly true for trading, which OP is specifically interested in within IB; maybe they hire non-finance people onto other roles in IB, but I doubt they do it for trading.

I agree that if you do a non-finance degree and then get very involved with something like the SMF, this can increase your chance somewhat. But an even better way to show an interest and enthusiasm finance is to do a degree in a related field (and then do the SMF on top of that).

qweerty

andrew wrote: »

If they are the execption that proves the rule, then you are at a disadvantage.

I don't see your logic. I am saying that humanities degrees are in the minority because of reasons specific to the applicant, rather than those degrees being filtered out or because of being insufficient preparation. Therefore, I believe they aren't at significant disadvantage (for non-quant roles, obviously).

andrew

qweerty wrote: »

I don't see your logic. I am saying that humanities degrees are in the minority because of reasons specific to the applicant, rather than those degrees being filtered out or because of being insufficient preparation. Therefore, I believe they aren't at significant disadvantage (for non-quant roles, obviously).

I'd disagree; I think Banks literally (like via a software filter) filter people based upon what degree they've done. If they don't, then the human reading CVs probably filters based upon degree. Or if they don't, the degree you've done significantly affects your performance at interview, and that acts as a filter. Part of the reason finance-orientated numerate degrees exist is because of the demand for them, and that demand comes from the fact that they increase your chance of getting a career in finance, by a lot.

In any case, seeing as OP wants to be a trader, we are talking about a role if not as a quant, then certainly on the quantsy side!

Tweej

Pure maths is one of the best degrees you can take if planning on going into the financial side of things. There are so many open days with traders coming in, trying to employ the maths undergraduates.

qweerty

andrew wrote: »

I'd disagree; I think Banks literally (like via a software filter) filter people based upon what degree they've done. If they don't, then the human reading CVs probably filters based upon degree. Or if they don't, the degree you've done significantly affects your performance at interview, and that acts as a filter. Part of the reason finance-orientated numerate degrees exist is because of the demand for them, and that demand comes from the fact that they increase your chance of getting a career in finance, by a lot.

In any case, seeing as OP wants to be a trader, we are talking about a role if not as a quant, then certainly on the quantsy side!

Not possessing evidence, I can't say that what you say about systematic filtering is categorically untrue. But I believe it to be so.

As for the reason behind the existence of undergrad finance degrees, first, few of America's top universities allow one to major in finance or business, so there isn't a large cohort with those degrees. Second, undergraduate degrees in journalism exist, but they certainly aren't seen as being essential to employment in newspapers. I think it is a significant leap to attribute the existence and demand for finance degtrees to a certified increase in likelihood of employment.

Trading and quant roles are substantially different.

khamilto

Andrew, of all my English friends who work in Finance in London, none did a Finance (or even Economics) degree. Indeed, the latest to start work in a finance job studied pure French, with a dissertation on... I think the use of Mise-en-scène in Tintin.

Qweerty is arguing self-selection bias, that those most interested in motivated in financial jobs will study finance, thus most finance employees studied finance (or similar). That seems fairly logical.

Whereas you're arguing that the effect is the cause - because most people working in finance studied finance, you need to have a finance degree to work in finance - which is a fallacy, even if you don't agree with Qweerty.

andrew

khamilto wrote: »

Andrew, of all my English friends who work in Finance in London, none did a Finance (or even Economics) degree. Indeed, the latest to start work in a finance job studied pure French, with a dissertation on... I think the use of Mise-en-scène in Tintin.

Qweerty is arguing self-selection bias, that those most interested in motivated in financial jobs will study finance, thus most finance employees studied finance (or similar). That seems fairly logical.

Whereas you're arguing that the effect is the cause - because most people working in finance studied finance, you need to have a finance degree to work in finance - which is a fallacy, even if you don't agree with Qweerty.

No. In a nutshell, I'm arguing that doing non finance or non-quants degree degree is a bad move, because it sends a signal to employers that you're not into finance/quantsy thing, which isn't present if you do a quantsy finance-y degree. Therefore, if OP wants to be a trader (and I know a trader isn't a quant, but it still requires significant mathematical ability, depending on what exactly you trade) she/he should do as quantsy and finance-y a degree as s/he can manage.

khamilto

andrew wrote: »

No. In a nutshell, I'm arguing that doing non finance or non-quants degree degree is a bad move, because it sends a signal to employers that you're not into finance/quantsy thing, which isn't present if you do a quantsy finance-y degree. Therefore, if OP wants to be a trader (and I know a trader isn't a quant, but it still requires significant mathematical ability, depending on what exactly you trade) she/he should do as quantsy and finance-y a degree as s/he can manage.

Banks literally (like via a software filter) filter people based upon what degree they've done

Part of the reason finance-orientated numerate degrees exist is because of the demand for them, and that demand comes from the fact that they increase your chance of getting a career in finance, by a lot.

You would seem to be using a thoroughly different argument now.

It's still a logical fallacy, even though I can see why you believe that.

andrew

khamilto wrote: »

You would seem to be using a thoroughly different argument now.

It's still a logical fallacy, even though I can see why you believe that.

All of those things are part of/consistent with exactly the same signalling argument, if you think there's a logical fallacy in here, you don't understand what logical fallacies are.

oKeeLinGo

Thanks for all the replies guys. I found them very helpful and insightful.
I think I've decided to put MSISS first for the moment. Although I really don't want to work in IT (I heard Google recruit a lot from MSISS?) I've been assured that many from MSISS go into Investment Banking - although I hope not for IT! (Still currently in contact with her - will get for information).
Also, I saw that one can transfer from MSISS to BESS easily enough in TCD so that's also another factor that influenced my decision.
I think Economics & Maths would probably be a better degree for getting into the area I want to but I have a friend who is very into Maths saying it'd be learning proves etc. - really not interested in that! Maybe if someone here is doing Economics & Maths they could confirm this? I think it's important to do a degree I'd enjoy and want to do well in rather than doing a degree I hate just because I think it'd offer me a better chance of making it into my job.
I have Economics & Finance UCD second at the moment. Such a fantastic degree but so far away Will probably be higher than MSISS but I expect MSISS to rise this year and E&F might stay the same or drop 5.

Nichard Dixon

oKeeLinGo wrote: »

I have Economics & Finance UCD second at the moment. Such a fantastic degree but so far away Will probably be higher than MSISS but I expect MSISS to rise this year and E&F might stay the same or drop 5.

A bus from Trinity to UCD takes 20 mins, this far away thing can be overstated. E&F might drop 5 points and MSISS go up 5 but there would still be 20 point gap.

Lynchy747

I do MSISS at the moment. I don't get why you are saying you don't want to do computers. A good bit of the computer part is a base of soft skill which is useful in any job. The heavy part is programming in Java, if you like maths, you'll like programming.

Being a trader involves a good basis and grasp of these soft skills.

I am currently working on a final year project for a large investment bank (I am unable to name the client). This project lives on the techy side and the "how trading works" side.

Getting a job in an investment bank or as a trader elsewhere (take a look at SIG), is something you shouldn't rule out if you consider putting MSISS number 1.

A degree shows your propensity to learn, if you can do a degree at any top university in Ireland or elsewhere, you can learn to trade, provide consulting services, prepare accounts etc. etc.

I'd be more than happy to answer specific questions you have.

khamilto

andrew wrote: »

All of those things are part of/consistent with exactly the same signalling argument, if you think there's a logical fallacy in here, you don't understand what logical fallacies are.

Signalling is an economics concept, not a logical argument.

If you think it isn't a logical fallacy, you don't understand what economics is.

(See, I can do it too!)

Although in fairness, it is a textbook example of the correlation does not equal causation fallacy. Which you seem to be blind to. You're also using circular reasoning (most employees have degree X, therefore companies value degree X over degree Y).

A bit off topic now I guess, but yes. Two logical fallacies among others.

Lord Arsraptor

Sorry I know this thread is a bit old, but just for the OP's benefit;
Front desk jobs are normally taken from graduates with lingual/critical/analytic skills. They'll be just as impressed with a good law degree as with an Economics and Finance degree. The maths is only necessary in support jobs as I understand it. In fact, JP Morgan staff are often recruited among Political Science graduates. Not that you'd be at a severe disadvantage with E&F; its obviously relevant to the business.